stone

Right now, I go to meetings for the companionship and face to face support, and I can understand how the 'program' can be off-putting.

I respect what the program is about though.

In my opinion the program works perfectly for the absolute, low bottom, hopeless alcoholic perfectly.

Those of us who haven't yet reached that point struggle against the program and we do have an opportunity to MAYBE find another way.

I think some of those in AA can sometimes give the impression that if you aren't ready to surrender completely you are missing the point of the program, but they are missing the point that others who haven't hit the ultimate bottom can still gain greatly just from the companionship, fellowship and general spirituality felt in a meeting.

sugErspun

I am more offended by the generalization of California (Liberal capitol?? - Isn't the Dem ticket going to be an Illinois boy this fall??), than the opinion of AA found in the 'article'.

AA (the book) itself says it surely has no monopoly on therapy for the alcoholic.

Must have missed that part of the book....


Ease up on the California comments - going to hurt my feelings.

Tazman53

Stone the recovery I have found in AA is not the same recovery as others find, the recovery I have found allows me to live life on lifes terms sober and happy. My recovery does not involve a meeting or 2 every day, it did when I first got sober though, today I go to 3-4 meetiings a week, I go to meetings to recharge my own battery and to hold out the hand of AA to the newcomer.

We have folks in the rooms in my area that do feel that AA is the only way, but they are in the minority, we also have folks who feel that in order to stay sober one has to attend an AA meeting every chance they get. We have folks who have stayed sober without a sponsor, without working steps and simply attending a ton of meetings all the time.

I have never been to a bar that there were not a thousand opinions on one subject or another, I have found the same to be true in AA. There are plenty of ways people find to stay sober in AA, for some it is meetings alone, for others it is meetings and service work, for some it is the steps, a sponsor, service works and meetings. I do what I need to do to stay sober and happy. That is not to say that a single other person has to do it the way I do it, if they are sober and happy I could care less how they do it, I simply support them.

contrarichard

Points well taken. There are certain guidelines which I am required to follow for the publication which specifically lends itself to alternative treatments - meaning alternative to AA/12 step. I should have disclosed more info when posting it on this site and perhaps it would have been interpreted as it is intended, which is to simply offer my perspective based on my personal experience. My sources will be included in the final edition. Mistakenly did not include in original post. Sorry again. I also did not know that this site predominantly consists of members who follow AA. I am taking all of your responses and feedback and will tweak my essay accordingly. The essay will not be submitted for another week. My perspective is precisely what I was asked to write about, which I did, but again will edit it so as not to offend anyone or insult anyone's recovery program yet still honor my perspective - a perspective that echoes that of many others.

There are many alternatives to AA and some are linked to this site. I cannot in good faith promote any of them without first experiencing them, which I have not, except I have attended LifeRing meetings, which can be very supportive, depending on what one contributes to the specific meeting. Other than that, my only treatment experience was 12 step based, years ago which did not resonate with me and admittedly, offended me deeply. I have since visited treatement centers, detox centers, AA meetings, Relapse Prevention meetings and various other events and workshops, but did so for purposes of research, not to stay sober. My nearly 12 years of sobriety came about from a combination of self-directed efforts. I am blessed with very supportive, insightful and compassionate people in my life - family and friends alike. I volunteer at a homeless shelter and spend time with those who struggle with addiction yet are incompatible with AA. I don't have any specific agenda or even plan when doing so. Each person I interact with, I do so with the intent of sharing whatever parts of myself, my life, my experiences and so on that I feel will best reach an individual and offer them hope and a sense that they are loved.

Truthfully, I did not intend on offending anyone by offering my perspective here. As I reexamine my original writing, I can pick out certain parts that have a bit of a "zing" and I will rephrase those parts, without diminishing my personal experience/perspective - so thanks for pointing things out - I continue to learn.

Zanthos

I try not to actually communicate that impression, but I certainly feel it.

You know, you are so right. And I find it extremely helpful to have that pointed out. Thank you.

It never fails that anytime something bothers or disturbs me, it is a reflection of some aspect of myself I am reacting to. I've found that in struggling to work the principles of the program, I have been uncomfortable around (and, yes, quietly intolerant of) others who seem to be "missing the point". But that has more to do with me than with those others. You see, I spent a lot of time around AA "missing the point" and ended up reaching one of those very very low (spiritual) bottoms. However, I am becoming more comfortable with the diversity in AA.

stone

Actually the book only says it has no monopoly on God, Suger, and it is the 'God' thing that puts people like me off AA.

sugErspun

"Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly. Yet it is our great hope that all those who have as yet found no answer may begin to find one in the pages of this book and will presently join us on the high road to a new freedom."

Big Book On Line - Foreword to second edition

Foreward to the Second Edition



Also - for me, God is just a word that points to something else. I cannot let words hold power over me any longer. Maybe I should start referring to it as 'The music of the spheres'...sounds more modern.

stone

I think that sums it up Taz

stone

OK I was wrong, for me, God points to something else too.

Tazman53

Sounds like AA minus the steps! LOL

Perhaps you can clarify somethings for me:

1. What is the benefit to an alcoholic seeking recovery to insinuate in any manner that any recovery program is less then another?

I fully understand and support telling a person struggling with one type of program about other types of programs that may work for them.

2. What is the benefit to an alcoholic seeking recovery to insinuate in any manner that any established recovery program is bad?


I am at a total lose to understand how negativity about any method of recovery is of a benefit to some one seeking recovery.

Zanthos

If I hadn't been desperate to embrace a program of spiritual development, the "God thing" would have been an insurmountable obstacle for me. But when I first encountered Steps 2 and 3, I figured I needed to invent a conception, my own conception, of a "power greater than myself" so that I could see if the program would work for me.

I have never taken the word "God" in AA literature to mean a single God that we all share. (Even if I had to ignore the plain meaning of what was written.) I don't believe there is such "a God". But, like you and SugEr say, the word points to something else. For me, that "something else" was first and foremost something other than myself. It really opened my eyes to the whole universe of Life that I was missing.

And I found that following the program's suggestions to pray to that "something else" actually did me a lot of good. By seeking guidance and focusing on an imagined source of strength, I experienced a multitude of very healthful effects.

Personally, I believe everyone that hasn't done so should experiment with creating a god of their own conception. Just make something up. Make something up that, when you think about it, eases your anxiety, nurtures your sense of well-being, provides a foundation for feelings of trust, ease and confidence, and is a focal point for acknowledging one's ongoing need for help and guidance over the course of that long walk called Life.

It really works and there's no good reason to deny yourself the benefits of this practical exercise.

tiburon88

I don't believe 100% in the steps. I guess according to some I'm doomed a alcoholic death. I have heard the saying, "AA Is The Only Way" only once or twice. I believe that some folks work very hard in AA yet continue to relapse. The saying, "it works if you work it" is my most hated saying.



Tib

stone

Zanthos, I think you said it perfectly. When I first did the steps I got down on my knees for the relevant prayers during the steps. I was willing to put aside my ego and just do it as it said, almost as a ceremonial way of saying, 'I give up'.

stone

Take what you need and leave the rest, why not?

You dont have to take the whole thing on board!

Just hang out with other (sober) alkies?

LosingmyMisery

There is no doubt that I was indoctrinated with AA is the only way when I attended. I grew to believe it and passed my opinion on to others stating just that. Over time, I grew to believe differently. I do believe there are other ways. Right up to the time I left AA, members thought I would fail and become drunk by walking out the door. It was considered a given. I am not drunk and it proves the point that there is life after AA.

On the other hand, AA saved my life. I will not trash AA. There may be aspects that bother me. It is not the program that I find offensive. It is the people, not all of them. I know that is a controversial statement. Many believe that people can not stop you from attending meetings, but it did me. The small town I live in and lack of meetings made it a factor. I still practice the structure of the program and it is working. I know I would be considered as sitting on the fence, but I have lived through and have gained ES&H by doing so. I am sober, that means everything to me. I may be judged by my lack of commitment, so be it. I am comfortable enough in my own skin to not let it bother me.

I do not bash others for using alternatives. I accept that don't fit into the mold anymore. I can see both sides of the coin. I've experienced pros and cons and have found a way to deal with it. The positive aspect far out way the bad. I am alive and I am sober! Take what you need and leave the rest. Those cliché I hated so when first coming into the program, seem to find their place on occasion.

On a good note: The God thing was a huge put off for me. It ended up being a blessing. I am very grateful that I put myself out there and was willing to try something that I didn't feel comfortable with. My newfound beliefs have changed my life and I am grateful for that. Bottom line, it is up to the individual to find a way which works. If something isn't working, find and alternative. If nothing works, you may want to examine why? You reap what you sow.

stone

That is rather beautiful.

stone

Also, check out Garry W's. post on the power of the group here.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...wer-group.html

Zanthos

Tib, I didn't "believe" in the Steps before I did them or even as I was doing them. During my first several months in AA, I repeatedly shared at meetings "This sh*t better work!" because I had no idea if it would. How could I?

I don't think it is a question of belief. To my mind, it is a practical question of whether it works. That is, does it produce the desired outcome or not?

It's like the procedure for re-building an engine. It's not about belief. It's about whether or not it's the right procedure. And generally, you can't tell unless you've truly tried to rebuild that engine according to that procedure. Afterwards, you know. You know whether or not it worked.

Despite a lot of pain and discomfort, most people do not completely abandoned themselves to the Steps and do not try working them in their life for a year or two. In my experience, that's what you have to do to see if it works or not.

If you're good with who you are and the way you feel about being alive, then maybe you won't ever need or want to really do the steps. But if you continue to feel something inside yourself that you just can't stand, then maybe you could consider really giving it a try. Do whatever it takes to get past that skepticism and intellectual doubt. Stop fighting and try it as completely as you can.

The thing is, it's going to be really damn scary to give the Steps a try. To let go of that sense that we define who we are and we determine our own conception of the world is going to be absolutely terrifying. Which is why most people don't do it, and a lot of people react with anger to the idea of the Steps.

But maybe you could be curious enough without getting completely desperate and give it a try. But you have to throw yourself into it whole-heartedly for at least a year to see if it works. It ain't magic. Fortunately, it can't hurt you. And you can always stop.

But you might discover that you really like the effects that the Steps have on you. And then you'll turn into one of those awful people who urge others to try the Steps! (There's another program for that!)

NoMoBeer

Isn't this a fun Tuesday?

Seriously, folks -- some of this stuff is downright FUNNY!!!!

Music, you still got it! I just love you, man. Hey, if you are ever up for coming out to Phoenix to speak, let me know (then again, I have never seen you speak, so I'd better be careful...).

Oh, and contrarichard, you're right -- AA is not the last stop on the train.

The last stop on the train is DEATH. I think I'll stay in the AA car.

NMB

stone

I think for someone who just came and posted 'a polemic' he brought out a discussion which helped me a bit.