Tazman53

AA saved my life, I chose AA because I needed face to face support and I work the AA program in order to maintain my sobriety.

I have seen individuals that would offer credence to some of your generalized statements, but there are many things you mention that I have not experienced or seen at all, mainly the aggressive and threatening parts you present as being common place.

I have attended well over 1,000 meetings, been to several conventions, worked the steps with a sponsor, do service work, and sponsor people, I have very rarely seen a few, very few people that even resemble what you speak of.

AA is a program of attraction and not promotion, this sets it apart from most other programs out there.

Bill W. & Dr. Bob were well aware that AA was not the only way, read "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" Dr. Bob mentions a woman who found another way of staying sober, he did not say she was going to get drunk because she had left AA, he stated that she had found happy sobriety without AA.

Bill W. & Dr. Bob searched for other ways for alcoholics to get and stay sober right up until the day they died.

Bill W. & Dr. Bob did not talk badly of any other program that was out there and I can assure you that they would not today.

AA saved my life, but I am well aware that there are other programs out there that work.


The last thing I would ever dream of doing was to trash another program.

Alcoholism is deadly disease, the last thing I would ever want to do is trash any other program in any manner.

I would hate to think that something I said bad or misleading about any program may result in some one not trying it and dying as a result of a personal vendetta I may have.

No program works for everyone, but I am sure that for anyone who really wants to get and stay sober there is a program out there that will work for them.

The last thing I want to do is trash any program in any way, I support them all, I do not want any blood on my hands because I trashed a program that may have been the only one to have worked for someone.

RufusACanal

I have championed against this argument in the past and as a result, I have wasted time that could have better been used to help the still suffering man or woman. Exercises in futility never provide the intended resolution; I would be better equipped attempting to turn night into day.

The best test of the truth of a new life is in the living of that life. Elegant conversation and debate does not create truth; it either is or is not.

Why should I today give credence to the many and varied attacks on a life free of the shackles of the past? What is gained? Am I appointed the protector of this program of recovery? No. I am alive today to live free and to carry the message of hope.

So, as the detractors continue to weave claims of failure, but not one can weave the truth. By the grace of a power Greater than I and with the experience, strength and hope of the fellowship of men and women like you, I live today free. Your uncertainty does not take away from my truth nor do your claims diminish the gift of a new life. I am free of Alcohol and I am free of the insanity. This is the proof.

Thinkingabit

"This guy is a troll and represents a very sad case. No real addiction recovery journal would publish what he wrote. My guess is that he has done the spin dry routine a few times, and for his own dark reasons has decided to do a character assassination run at AA because he hates himself. Seriously now....who would write an article about alternatives to AA without mentioning a single alternative to AA?"


LOL Is this the spiritual part of your program??? LOL

Thinkingabit that I am glad I left aa!

LOL

Openminded??? Uh yeah...

Willing? to insult?

Honest?? In showing who you are?? LOL

stone

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.


Polemics is the practice of disputing or controverting religious, philosophical, or political matters. As such, a polemic text on a topic is often written specifically to dispute or refute a position or theory that is widely viewed to be beyond reproach.

Both definitions from Wikepedia.

Personally I think the OP is the latter, which is fair enough.
IMO he doesn't do it very well, though.

collinsmi

Opinions are OK, but you need to cite facts to back them up. A lot of fluff in there, get to the concrete.

For example: 1. Well, why are these particular statements inaccurate? What are the other hundreds of statements?

2. Are these slogans really drilled into the newcomer? Why, because you say they are? Again, no support. Might be true, but no proof.

3. What are these prior methods of recovery from alcoholism? What are their success rates? Do you have examples, statistics, testimonials? Then you can't really support these as absurd notions.

4. Why is this next notion equally absurd? Are you sure it's not less absurd? Maybe more so? Also, why laughable, arrogant, ignorant and blatantly irresponsible? All these strong emotions. All this contempt and finger wagging. Without the concrete, it's counterproductive.

4. Why/how can these slogans have a dangerous effect on those in treatment centers? What's the danger? What's the evidence?

5. What research?

I'd rewrite the whole thing. Opinion alone isn't going to change any minds.

Good luck with your article and your recovery. Let us know how they work out.

Bernadette

"As opposed to the aggression and fear based tactics offered in AA and 12-step programs,"

A highly subjective statement ! Is there a study to back this statement up? Or is it the author's personal or anecdotely received opinion?

I found 12-step AlAnon program to be the opposite: fear actually goes away - replaced by acceptance and work!!

But whatever works - I dont think one program needs to be "better" than the other. Outcomes matter, and individuals differ in their needs. Whatever it takes!

Peace,
B.

Tazman53

Well said B. I bolded what imho stood out to me and I pray others.

NoMoBeer

I have been around AA a while, and I have never heard the phrase "AA is the only way," or "it is AA or die" uttered by even one AA member.

I have heard phrases like 'keep coming back, one day at a time, we'll love you until you learn to love yourself, it works if you work it... ' etc. Hardly aggressive or fear based -- aggressive and fear based is how I lived my life drunk.

Here's what I know:
(a) that I am an alcoholic, and cannot manage my own life.
(b) probably no human power could have relieved me of my alcoholism.
(c) God can and will if He is sought.

While this is my belief, I consider it fact. And I can back it up with fact.

Fact: Today, I am sober. That's enough for me.

Music

Well Rich, once again you've proven that anything that comes out of California is crap. I've been in AA for a long time and have never even heard of the two quotes in the above statement, let alone seen them anywhere in AA literature. AA's helped me to stay sober and create a better life for myself than I'd ever dreamed of and I welcome anyone who's alcoholic, to try any other program of their choice. There is one slogan I heartly believe in and it goes like this. "It works, if you work it!" The AA program works for anyone who's willing to work the AA program. If someone is offended by the 12 steps, IMO they've already lost the battle.

contrarichard

[QUOTE= If someone is offended by the 12 steps, IMO they've already lost the battle.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for further supporting my perspective on the arrogance and closed-mindedness of CERTAIN, not all 12 steppers. You cannot honestly believe that the many who continue to abstain from alcohol/drug abuse without AA and 12 steps have lost the battle???? On another note, your comment about California cracked me up. I have no specific loyalty to California, since I was raised in Boston and lived there for 40 years. Although Cali is a beautiful place to live and I am falling more and more in love with it, when I first moved here a couple of years ago, I too carried a bit of an attitude - so thanks for giving me something to laugh about.

Cathy31

Well I believe this so maybe I'm one of those people you're on about! Why? Because I've seen proof. But I do not speak for AA as a whole or any part of AA as it's abundantly clear that AA NEVER says it's the only way. I believe it is though - as I have *no evidence* (evidence = emotional and physical sobriety) except for one person (anna51 on this forum) of anyone doing it properly without aa.

Just my experience, thank God for AA I say! :day4

CAthy31
x

Tazman53

Richard what were the other programs with the super high success rates? How many folks have been sober 20 years or more using them? 10 years or more? The reason I ask is in case any of my sponsees are having trouble staying sober via AA I would like to point them to good solid programs with long term track records.

You know Richard when you trash some one elses program exactly what kind of replies do you expect to get?

One very important question, rather then trashing other programs. why not suggest other programs that do work well and have worked for you?

Obviously you have found a program that worked for you, why not talk about it and how well it has worked for you.

There are other folks here who have found success in programs other then AA and instead of trashing other programs they talk about how well thier program has worked for them.

There are also other people here who have found long term sobriety with out a program who share what they have done to stay sober and they do not talk badly about any programs, as a matter of fact they support all other programs as well.

Music

I guess you can say I'm arrogant if you choose, and I'm happy to be considered closed minded. I've been practicing the AA program for over 31 years and I owe my sobriety to my strong belief and faith in AA and God. Like the country song says: "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything." I just hope people don't fall for your line of crap and stay out there any longer than it takes them to admit they need help.

That's not what I said. I said, "AA works for anyone who's willing to work it and anyone who's offended by the 12 steps has no chance of even being willing to work the program.

By the way, Boston, IMO is no different than the liberal capitol of the US, San Francisco, so you're right in your element and I can fully understand why you're developing a love for the left coast.

Tazman53

Cathy there is a lady here who uses the WFS program with great success, AA just did not do it for her, I think her name here is Serene. Very nice lady who is supportive of AA and all other programs.

Rob B

Your article is an expose on emotionally charged sensationalism that is far removed from fact . Here’s my favorite slogan, Don’t like AA? Don’t GO. It’s that Simple.

CarolD

Please stop with the jibes and baiting other members.
That's how threads get closed.

Here is what our SR Policy says...

4. Trolling: Posting of any content with the intention of disrupting the forum or inflaming members-be it on someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program. This includes flaming, flame baiting, registration of multiple accounts or impersonation of another member. Do not Harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress or discomfort upon another Online Forum participant. This includes flaming on our forums or other public forums. We are here to share our experience and offer peer support. No other agendas that disrupt the forums will be tolerated.


Thanks everyone

laurie6781

Now Music that isn't quite true, roflmao. I got sober in Southern California in the San Fernando Valley and there was EXCELLENT AA there then and there still is. However, there are also meetings that I attended once and never went back.

I have friends that still live there and are sober a long time, and some who have passed on to the Big Meeting in the sky. I do understand, however, where that thought of yours comes from, lol

I believe you get what you LOOK for. As far as this the topic of this thread, I have seen this type of thing so many times, I don't even get upset any more.

Yes there are several good alternatives, now, to AA. Not back in '81 when I got sober. For those who find they cannot or will not work the AA program, I suggest the others recovery programs that I know of.

I have reached the point in my sobriety, where all I want to see is an alcoholic find sobriety, how they do it, is their choice.

HOWEVER, no matter what program they choose, it still requires the person's ALL. This is a life threating disease (yeah I know some don't think its a disease, so substitue 'affliction'). Sobriety is a lot of HARD WORK on ones self to 'fix' the ISM (I, Self, Me).

Choose what works best for you.

As to threats, negativity, etc. I have never seen that in any meeting I have attended, and I have attended lots over the last 27 years, all over the country. What I found, was Love and Understanding. People who cared and were WILLING to show me how they did it.

I really think if you were writing an ariticle like you posted for submission to wherever you would have quoted your sources.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

Zanthos

Despite this being the second sentence of the post, no successful or alternative methods to AA are named or discussed in the post. This shows, I believe, pretense and lack of honesty.

If, instead, the post were titled "AA Sucks!" and dropped the references to "other programs", I'd have no problem with it. But as it is written, the post strikes me as malicious in intent, designed only to bait others into a passionate defense of AA, while laughing at having stirred the pot.

Internet Trolls

Zanthos

You should come to our meetings! We have a big tapestry that reads "AA is the only way!" As we enter the meeting room, we genuflect before it and kiss its edge.

If a newcomer identifies him or herself, the meeting immediately adjourns into "newcomer mode" in which we circle the clueless fool and begin to chant, ever more loudly, "It is AA or die!"

Our success rate is very high. Most of these newcomers stay sober if only to avoid ever attending an AA meeting again.

Zanthos

Oh never mind.