Slogan Pet Peeve...
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
The alcoholic death is hell
Originally Posted by bugsworth 
With all do respect nandm,
At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or else.
The Big Book, 1st Edition
or else what? Jails, institutions or death.....sounds hellish to me.
In the 12x12 Wilson writes
Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles.
Death Warrant?? These "spiritual principles" have grave penalties if not adhered to.
sounds less like guidelines and more like damnation.
JMO
At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or else.
The Big Book, 1st Edition
or else what? Jails, institutions or death.....sounds hellish to me.
In the 12x12 Wilson writes
Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles.
Death Warrant?? These "spiritual principles" have grave penalties if not adhered to.
sounds less like guidelines and more like damnation.
JMO
As for the living death of alcoholism, that is what is meant by been to hell. I've been there and back. I have experienced heaven as well. Neither heaven nor hell have no address. They can be right here right now. I've said before, the principles don't do the punishing, booze does the job quite well.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Jim, I understand the living death of which you speak...BUT many non-alcoholics and religious people alike have been thru living hells. We are not special, religious people are not immune to lifes tragedies.
That's why I don't drink....booze does the punishing.
That's why I don't drink....booze does the punishing.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Originally Posted by bugsworth
Sug, I'm sorry but maybe only a third and seventh?
Third Step prayer Big Book 1st edition
God, I offer myself to Thee-
To build with me
and to do with me as Thou wilt.
Relieve me of the bondage of self,
that I may better do Thy will.
Take away my difficulties,
that victory over them may bear witness
to those I would help of Thy Power,
Thy Love, and Thy Way of life.
May I do Thy will always!
The Seventh Step Prayer
Seventh step prayer Big Book 1st edition
My Creator,
I am now willing that you should have all of me,
good and bad.
I pray that you now remove from me
every single defect of character which stands in the way
of my usefulness to you and my fellows.
Grant me strength, as I go out from here,
to do your bidding.
Amen
Third Step prayer Big Book 1st edition
God, I offer myself to Thee-
To build with me
and to do with me as Thou wilt.
Relieve me of the bondage of self,
that I may better do Thy will.
Take away my difficulties,
that victory over them may bear witness
to those I would help of Thy Power,
Thy Love, and Thy Way of life.
May I do Thy will always!
The Seventh Step Prayer
Seventh step prayer Big Book 1st edition
My Creator,
I am now willing that you should have all of me,
good and bad.
I pray that you now remove from me
every single defect of character which stands in the way
of my usefulness to you and my fellows.
Grant me strength, as I go out from here,
to do your bidding.
Amen
Bugs,
Please read the paragraph following the Third Step prayer in the book, it can be found on page 63 of most editions..it explains that the wording of such prayers is optional.
On page 76 is the seventh step - it begins with "We say something like this" and the prayer follows.
You see, there are NO set prayers in AA. Just some prayers that others have used, not dogma like a traditional religion.
You can recover without memorizing or reciting any of the prayers you hear in meetings.
Amazing.
problem with authority
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
Personally, I modified these prayers because, frankly, they don't scan very well. :-)
Originally Posted by sugErspun
Bugs,
Please read the paragraph following the Third Step prayer in the book, it can be found on page 63 of most editions..it explains that the wording of such prayers is optional.
On page 76 is the seventh step - it begins with "We say something like this" and the prayer follows.
You see, there are NO set prayers in AA. Just some prayers that others have used, not dogma like a traditional religion.
You can recover without memorizing or reciting any of the prayers you hear in meetings.
Amazing.
Please read the paragraph following the Third Step prayer in the book, it can be found on page 63 of most editions..it explains that the wording of such prayers is optional.
On page 76 is the seventh step - it begins with "We say something like this" and the prayer follows.
You see, there are NO set prayers in AA. Just some prayers that others have used, not dogma like a traditional religion.
You can recover without memorizing or reciting any of the prayers you hear in meetings.
Amazing.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
I don't care to go tit-for-tat about this. Not everything needs to be turned into a debate here.
All I'm saying is that many come to AA who have been damaged by the dogma of religion. Judith was clear about that in her post. And like Judith, I'm not afraid of going to hell, because I've there.
I've seen an avowed atheist recover through practicing a spiritual way of life. Our beliefs about religion, God, prayer, and things like that are as different as night and day. But we both know what the living hell of alcoholism is like. It doesn't make us special or any better than a non-alcoholic. But we are not talking about just any difficulty. We are talking about alcoholism. The non-alcoholic can't know that experience. My athiest friend and I do know that experience first hand and we can also agree that experience is what makes us uniquely useful to another alcoholic. We can set aside our differences and join in brotherly and harmonious action to carry a message of hope.
Jim
All I'm saying is that many come to AA who have been damaged by the dogma of religion. Judith was clear about that in her post. And like Judith, I'm not afraid of going to hell, because I've there.
I've seen an avowed atheist recover through practicing a spiritual way of life. Our beliefs about religion, God, prayer, and things like that are as different as night and day. But we both know what the living hell of alcoholism is like. It doesn't make us special or any better than a non-alcoholic. But we are not talking about just any difficulty. We are talking about alcoholism. The non-alcoholic can't know that experience. My athiest friend and I do know that experience first hand and we can also agree that experience is what makes us uniquely useful to another alcoholic. We can set aside our differences and join in brotherly and harmonious action to carry a message of hope.
Jim
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 34
It is a mantra, and AA is in fact a religion, by any reasonable definition of the term, because it claims the existence of a transcendental being - the Higher Power - a being we can't see, perhaps omnipotent, that can help us do what we can't do on out own. But what's beautiful about AA is that it is come one, come all, whether you're Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or whatever,. It does not preach that it is the only means of salvation, and holds no criticism of any established religion. It is does not promote religious bigotry in any form.
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
To me, religion and spirituality are two different things. I have no interest in scripture and structured religion, but I'm willing to open myself up to spirituality to get and stay sober. I discovered a meaningful part of life that I was missing out on. I'm grateful to be introduced to the idea of spirituality. I never was able to separate the two concepts before.
When I first got sober, I hated the slogans, hated them all. Soon, they started making sense to me and I moved on and accepted the fact that some people may find comfort in them when they are struggling. For me, they mostly bugged, but everything isn't all about me. Certainly we can sit down and pick a part any slogan. "Where's the Beef?" Remember that one with the little old lady? It wasn't my favorite, but never really felt the need to sit down and pick it apart with my cohorts.
I was a drunk. I needed help. I found my way to AA. I really didn't like anything about the program, but wanted to get sober and my way wasn't working. I stuck with it because my life was hell. Yes, you don't have to be an alcoholic to experience hellacious experiences. Life is difficult. Alcoholics contribute to their own hell. They do it by choice. Most bad experiences are by chance. Picking up the next drink and continuing to get drunk every day was not by chance, it was by my choice. Therefore I was living a self-imposed hell.
When AA got to be to much for me to handle, I left. I got sober in AA and still practice the structure, but have not attended a meeting in over a year. I have not slipped back into hell and damnation, I'm still sober. Yet, I have no desire to bash and ridicule the program for my entertainment. I'm grateful for the program and getting sober. Someday I may find my way back. I do not close the door to it, but today, it is not for me. For all of those who still attend AA, I say "good on ya!!!" I hope you find what you need to get and stay sober. Today, I'd rather trash talk the price of gasoline and the greed of the oil companies instead of a program that was established to help those who are still suffering.
When I first got sober, I hated the slogans, hated them all. Soon, they started making sense to me and I moved on and accepted the fact that some people may find comfort in them when they are struggling. For me, they mostly bugged, but everything isn't all about me. Certainly we can sit down and pick a part any slogan. "Where's the Beef?" Remember that one with the little old lady? It wasn't my favorite, but never really felt the need to sit down and pick it apart with my cohorts.
I was a drunk. I needed help. I found my way to AA. I really didn't like anything about the program, but wanted to get sober and my way wasn't working. I stuck with it because my life was hell. Yes, you don't have to be an alcoholic to experience hellacious experiences. Life is difficult. Alcoholics contribute to their own hell. They do it by choice. Most bad experiences are by chance. Picking up the next drink and continuing to get drunk every day was not by chance, it was by my choice. Therefore I was living a self-imposed hell.
When AA got to be to much for me to handle, I left. I got sober in AA and still practice the structure, but have not attended a meeting in over a year. I have not slipped back into hell and damnation, I'm still sober. Yet, I have no desire to bash and ridicule the program for my entertainment. I'm grateful for the program and getting sober. Someday I may find my way back. I do not close the door to it, but today, it is not for me. For all of those who still attend AA, I say "good on ya!!!" I hope you find what you need to get and stay sober. Today, I'd rather trash talk the price of gasoline and the greed of the oil companies instead of a program that was established to help those who are still suffering.
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
Boater, thank you for your thoughts. If thinking AA is a religion works for you then great. It does not work for me, in fact it would turn me completely away from AA so I choose to see it as a spiritual program. I guess everyone has to utilize the glasses they have to form their views and opinions. I keep trying on the new glasses but still can't find a pair where I can be comfortable considering AA religious. Maybe I need to borrow a pair from you...lol. To each his/her own.
After reading this thread again, I realize that I for one tend to make things more complicated than they need be. Who cares if one person considers AA spiritual and another considers it religions. What matters is does it work? If believing AA is religious works for some more power to them. Just as my belief that it isn't a religion is something I should be free to explore as well. Good luck and happy sobriety to all. Maybe we can just find peace with this subject and agree to disagree.
After reading this thread again, I realize that I for one tend to make things more complicated than they need be. Who cares if one person considers AA spiritual and another considers it religions. What matters is does it work? If believing AA is religious works for some more power to them. Just as my belief that it isn't a religion is something I should be free to explore as well. Good luck and happy sobriety to all. Maybe we can just find peace with this subject and agree to disagree.
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
At my first AA meeting, when they gathered hand in hand to say the Lord's prayer, I nearly booked it straight for the door. It was a huge turn off for me. I can see where many people would feel the same. I stayed put because I wanted to get sober. I needed to get sober. I realized that I don't have to like everything I need to do. I need to do what is in my best interest, at that time, it was to stay and learn to pray. I survived and the Lord's prayer no longer brings an adverse reaction. Mainly, I think things that are different and unfamiliar tend to freak us out. Once they become familiar, the fear goes away and the norm steps in.
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
I thought this was applicable to this thread.
I have chosen to follow the example set by the authors of the Big Book and show respect for other's viewpoints and opinions on this topic even if my personal viewpoint and opinions differ.
Of necessity there will have to be discussions of matters of medical, psychiatric, social, and religious. We are aware that these matters are, from their very nature, controversial. Nothing would please us so much as to write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument. We shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal. Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and VIEWPOINTS and a RESPECT for their OPINIONS are attitudes which make us more useful to others. Our very lives, as ex-alcoholics, depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs. (quoted from The Big Book, First Edition, Chapter "There is a Solution")
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Living Proof
Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery
To me, religion and spirituality are two different things. I have no interest in scripture and structured religion, but I'm willing to open myself up to spirituality to get and stay sober. I discovered a meaningful part of life that I was missing out on. I'm grateful to be introduced to the idea of spirituality. I never was able to separate the two concepts before.
When I first got sober, I hated the slogans, hated them all. Soon, they started making sense to me and I moved on and accepted the fact that some people may find comfort in them when they are struggling. For me, they mostly bugged, but everything isn't all about me. Certainly we can sit down and pick a part any slogan. "Where's the Beef?" Remember that one with the little old lady? It wasn't my favorite, but never really felt the need to sit down and pick it apart with my cohorts.
I was a drunk. I needed help. I found my way to AA. I really didn't like anything about the program, but wanted to get sober and my way wasn't working. I stuck with it because my life was hell. Yes, you don't have to be an alcoholic to experience hellacious experiences. Life is difficult. Alcoholics contribute to their own hell. They do it by choice. Most bad experiences are by chance. Picking up the next drink and continuing to get drunk every day was not by chance, it was by my choice. Therefore I was living a self-imposed hell.
When AA got to be to much for me to handle, I left. I got sober in AA and still practice the structure, but have not attended a meeting in over a year. I have not slipped back into hell and damnation, I'm still sober. Yet, I have no desire to bash and ridicule the program for my entertainment. I'm grateful for the program and getting sober. Someday I may find my way back. I do not close the door to it, but today, it is not for me. For all of those who still attend AA, I say "good on ya!!!" I hope you find what you need to get and stay sober. Today, I'd rather trash talk the price of gasoline and the greed of the oil companies instead of a program that was established to help those who are still suffering.
When I first got sober, I hated the slogans, hated them all. Soon, they started making sense to me and I moved on and accepted the fact that some people may find comfort in them when they are struggling. For me, they mostly bugged, but everything isn't all about me. Certainly we can sit down and pick a part any slogan. "Where's the Beef?" Remember that one with the little old lady? It wasn't my favorite, but never really felt the need to sit down and pick it apart with my cohorts.
I was a drunk. I needed help. I found my way to AA. I really didn't like anything about the program, but wanted to get sober and my way wasn't working. I stuck with it because my life was hell. Yes, you don't have to be an alcoholic to experience hellacious experiences. Life is difficult. Alcoholics contribute to their own hell. They do it by choice. Most bad experiences are by chance. Picking up the next drink and continuing to get drunk every day was not by chance, it was by my choice. Therefore I was living a self-imposed hell.
When AA got to be to much for me to handle, I left. I got sober in AA and still practice the structure, but have not attended a meeting in over a year. I have not slipped back into hell and damnation, I'm still sober. Yet, I have no desire to bash and ridicule the program for my entertainment. I'm grateful for the program and getting sober. Someday I may find my way back. I do not close the door to it, but today, it is not for me. For all of those who still attend AA, I say "good on ya!!!" I hope you find what you need to get and stay sober. Today, I'd rather trash talk the price of gasoline and the greed of the oil companies instead of a program that was established to help those who are still suffering.
Thank you. Living proof that attending AA meetings are not the key to maintaining sobriety, but that the practice of spiritual principles, or the structure as you very aptly stated, are the key. And I say this as an AA member.
There are a set of writings called The Gnostic Gospels. These writings were declared heretical and deemed unfit for inclusion in the canon bible after the First Council of Nicea in about A.D. 300. They were banned and any that were discovered were burned by The Church. In 1945, a library of early Gnostic Christian writings was discovered in a cave near Nag Hammad, Egypt. These writings are fascinating. Many are similiar to what we know as the New Testament, but many are totaly contrary. Bear with me, you'll see where I'm going with this.
In one of these ancient writings Jesus is attributed as saying "I point my finger at God and you worship my finger." How true. We worship AA and not what it points us to. In that sense we have turned AA into a religion that does indeed have its dogma. The dogma is the slogans, stuff like 'acceptance is the answer," "go to meetings and don't drink no matter what," and many more. Even stuff like "read the Big Book and get a sponsor, work the steps" fall into dogma. Most take this stuff as literaly true without ever questioning it.
AA did not get me sober and AA does not keep me sober. The Big Book, my sponsor, the steps, service work did not and do not keep me sober. They point me to what got me sober and what keeps me sober.
Jim
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
Originally Posted by jimhere
AA did not get me sober and AA does not keep me sober. The Big Book, my sponsor, the steps, service work did not and do not keep me sober. They point me to what got me sober and what keeps me sober.
Jim
Jim
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
It was a huge deal to walk away from my home-group. I helped in getting it started and was a dutiful member for 2 years. I don't mean to put down AA. I think it saves lives and it helped get this hopeless drunk sober, but an unhealthy group can do more harm than good. I walked away and have never looked back. I took what I needed and I left the other behind.
There isn't a day which goes by where I don't work on my sobriety. I just don't do it around the AA tables anymore. Of course, I'm sure they had me drunk and down and out in no time, but I lead by example, not by assumptions. I am smart enough to realize that there may be the member who leaves and ends up drunk again, but that will not be me. I refuse to live up to that image. You see, I don't want to drink again. I don't want to live that life again.
I will do what ever it takes to stay sober. As long as I stay strong in sobriety, I will continue to do what I do. If I start heading into trouble, I best be looking for a better solution. It is our responsibility to keep searching for the solution.
There isn't a day which goes by where I don't work on my sobriety. I just don't do it around the AA tables anymore. Of course, I'm sure they had me drunk and down and out in no time, but I lead by example, not by assumptions. I am smart enough to realize that there may be the member who leaves and ends up drunk again, but that will not be me. I refuse to live up to that image. You see, I don't want to drink again. I don't want to live that life again.
I will do what ever it takes to stay sober. As long as I stay strong in sobriety, I will continue to do what I do. If I start heading into trouble, I best be looking for a better solution. It is our responsibility to keep searching for the solution.
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,415
Yeah Bugs, there are lots of mantras I like, like "Let go and let G*d" and "This too shall pass".
And to complement Jim's history lesson I'll just had out a quick one on "religion". In Buddhism there are many traditions, and one movement or set of traditions is called the "greater vehicle" and "lesser vehicle". The "greater" vehicle carries many people in the direction of "enlightenment". The "lesser" vehicle carries far fewer people to enlightenment, but they are heading for a higher stage! Most of us who are travelling are on the greater vehicle - all that works for us is the simple religious life of mantra, unthinking religious practice, simple belief, devotion to icons, that sort of thing. For a lucky few, who have a greater capacity, they're now on a stage of the journey where they can devote their whole lives to spiritual development. Monks, holy men, that sort of thing. Of course not all monks or holy men are actually lesser vehicle - pretence, self-deceit, self-serving, self-importance, self-righteousness all these sorts of things would mark them out as neither greater nor lesser, but simply not travelling at all.
Most people of course, aren't travelling at all. Or we're not travelling all the time, or anything like it! Most of us hang on to our egotistical "self" and seek out self-justification. But something simple, like trying to work with another drunk, making the coffee and putting away the chairs after a meeting, and doing so genuinely without thought for self - well, my experience is that that gives me a moment of insight into what the path ahead is. I can get that same moment from repeating a mantra - sometimes even the ones I don't like. I can get it from checking myself from judging others, and their progress - something I'm terrible for. I can get it from reading the same pages in the BB over and over, and not to "find something new". And I can get it by accepting that perhaps all I am is a greater vehicle guy.
Here's a new one. I can't decide to be enlightened. But I sure as hell can decide to be unenlightened.
And to complement Jim's history lesson I'll just had out a quick one on "religion". In Buddhism there are many traditions, and one movement or set of traditions is called the "greater vehicle" and "lesser vehicle". The "greater" vehicle carries many people in the direction of "enlightenment". The "lesser" vehicle carries far fewer people to enlightenment, but they are heading for a higher stage! Most of us who are travelling are on the greater vehicle - all that works for us is the simple religious life of mantra, unthinking religious practice, simple belief, devotion to icons, that sort of thing. For a lucky few, who have a greater capacity, they're now on a stage of the journey where they can devote their whole lives to spiritual development. Monks, holy men, that sort of thing. Of course not all monks or holy men are actually lesser vehicle - pretence, self-deceit, self-serving, self-importance, self-righteousness all these sorts of things would mark them out as neither greater nor lesser, but simply not travelling at all.
Most people of course, aren't travelling at all. Or we're not travelling all the time, or anything like it! Most of us hang on to our egotistical "self" and seek out self-justification. But something simple, like trying to work with another drunk, making the coffee and putting away the chairs after a meeting, and doing so genuinely without thought for self - well, my experience is that that gives me a moment of insight into what the path ahead is. I can get that same moment from repeating a mantra - sometimes even the ones I don't like. I can get it from checking myself from judging others, and their progress - something I'm terrible for. I can get it from reading the same pages in the BB over and over, and not to "find something new". And I can get it by accepting that perhaps all I am is a greater vehicle guy.
Here's a new one. I can't decide to be enlightened. But I sure as hell can decide to be unenlightened.
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