Ophelia

Hi, I’m Ophelia and I am very definitely an Alcoholic. I’ve really earned this distinction and am most grateful to have it because of the changes I’ve gone through in recovery not the least of which is how much stronger and more empowered I am over my life today. That being said….

I was told in the beginning I have to go to any length to recover from this disease, malady, illness, whatever you want to call it, I’ve got it. I am powerless over alcohol, that is I am powerless once I take that first drink. If I never took the first drink, practicing recovery would be purely academic. Why was I able to quit? I don’t know the entire answer to that yet, and maybe I never will. I do know that my life became so unbearable that I was finally willing to stop protecting my right to continue drinking. I can honestly say that up until this point, I was totally unwilling to do anything substantive about my drinking problem except bemoan the fact that I could not seem to quit (on my own of course). Reaching out for help up until the very end was never an option for me. I did not think that anything would work for me and in my state of mind at the time I was right.

I still have a ton of garbage to clean up (nearly all of it actually) and the weight of it feels really heavy. When using, I was going a million miles an hour in the wrong direction and six months ago I quit, therefore coming to a screeching halt. Because of this it feels like everything that was chasing behind me, still being in motion, has come crashing up against me….My alcoholic mind tells me see look, you stopped drinking and everything in your life remains unmanageable, you’re doing no better than before, what’s the point? My new rational mind tells me this is nonsense, it’s simply not true. I was going to have to pay the piper at some point and if I had continued drinking this could be so much worse. My mind lies to me all the time and many times I feel like I’ve transferred my obsession to drink to other areas of my life, most specifically work. I work like a maniac, and sometimes I’m never satisfied, never good enough, not perfect enough etc....and I have more than a vague notion that the problem is inside of me not outside. My after-care therapy group told me flat out you work that way because you’re an alcoholic. It’s scary how many things I can apply that saying to in my life.

I recently checked out the Rational Recovery website and was taken by surprise at the volume of inflamed rhetoric aimed squarely at AA. I went on this site hoping to find more information I could use to stay abstinent. If somebody out there is doing something different that could also benefit me, I definitely want to know about it. I left the sight feeling a little sick inside. It’s an interesting circular thought to me that RR exists in part to lampoon and abolish AA yet how could there ever have been an RR if AA didn’t come first? I also wonder how the founder knows with scientific certainty that AA did him so much harm or is so utterly wrong? Many people go to AA and continue to drink. It seems to me that alcoholics will continue to drink no matter what until they are ready to deal squarely and honestly with the problem. I know for a fact that was me. I can also always find zeolots in any and every walk of life (including AA). I don't trust zealotry because I can never find any indication that a heart is present and functioning.

I’ve always thought recovery was a thankless field. I constantly hear statistics on the failure rate of recovery. Duh, that’s because recovery depends on the addict, which is not always a prudent thing to bet on or get good statistics out of!! Though I went away from the RR site uneasy, it was ultimately a valuable experience for me as it caused me to really evaluate what I believe and trust and why. I don’t want to create a firestorm here (which I may have just done anyway), I would love to have some thoughtful and honest feedback on this topic or any of the others I’ve raised as I’m currently trying to sort them out in my own mind.

Thanks!!

p.s. I haven't researched smart yet, but plan to...

phoenix

I think you made several good points,and I love the description of all that wreckage still in motion when we come to a halt :bojo:

I really believe that when I was finally ready to stop,nothing could have got in the way.AA and NA worked really well because I was willing to change.But I did find that I had to study the books and get to know the principles for myself.

(Lucky for me I didn't wind up selling flowers at the airport )

It's easy to get turned around by some of the distortions of individual members,and I have to remember that not everything I hear at a meeting is in line with those principles.

I also visited the RR website and was sickened by the poisonous hatred.I had difficulty finding anything positive related to recovery.I don't doubt that they have some useful techniques but I couldn't get past all the negativity.

It's wonderful that alternatives exist for those who don't want what AA offers.The most important thing seems to be keeping an open mind, searching out what works and what doesn't.If a person is determined to recover they will find a way

phoenix

Ninerfan

Nice post Ophelia, and I think it was balanced and fair. I wrote a bunch of other stuff but just erased it. It wont do any good to point out the flaws in RR thinking as it relates to AA. They believe what they believe and that is that. And besides, I've posted enough of my thoughts about that group. But I recommend everyone take a look at the rational.org site and make their own minds up about that outfit. As with any other recovery concept, I take what I can use and leave the rest.

The Jay Walker

Ophelia

a lot of good points, and I agree that whatever route a person takes to get sober, depends upon the person and not the program they have chosen, I know I couldn't quit on my own and not untill I was out of options.

I too have seen the RR site, and have left there feeling lousy.
but it has worked for many people, but on the flip side I have seen people in meetings that tell me that RR didn't work for them.

I too had a lot of wreckage in my past, and feel better about myself having cleaned that mess up and taking responsability for my actions by following through with the 12 steps.

I guess the bottom line is that there are many different types of drinkers, and we need to find the program that is right for us as individuals.

GeorgiaGirl

Hi, I would like to recommend a great site for women. It is called Women for Sobriety. Check it out if you are female and struggling with alcoholism. I use that sight, along with this one and a few others for support, encouragement, and insight.

Good luck to you,

GeorgiaGirl

DolphinBlue

Hi Ophelia,

great post! I related to a lot of what you said. I too checked out RR when I was newly sober because I was struggling with some of the ideas of AA. I found that it sounded great - fix me in ten minutes? Wonderful! A quick fix solution in a time of desperation seemed like the perfect idea. This solution seemed to use logic and clear thinking, appealing to my (unhealthy) need for control.

Soon, I started to feel empty, like I was missing something. It took only a short time for me to see that my logic and "clear" thinking had made me miserable and egotistical, just like when I was drinking.

I see my time of doubt as a blessing to me now, I saw and felt how damaging my thinking could be to my sense of peace. I realised that I needed to try something else. I needed to re-evaluate my beliefs, go right back to basics and start listening.

I wanted to return to AA, but found that my ideas had changed. I had to re-evaluate my most important beliefs and for a while all I had was willingness to believe in the program, to believe that something else could give me the peace of mind I knew I needed. I felt stupid every time I prayed for willingness, but I did it. Luckily, willingness was all I needed.

There are a lot of issues I am dealing with right now, rubble from the past. But I have hope and a way to work through these issues. I have faith because I've tested the program out and its always worked. Its not always easy and it doesn't always happen how or when I want it to, but part of my recovery is learning to dump the idea of quick fix solutions, that I know what's best, and have more faith and commitment.

I've enjoyed the greatest rewards of my life in AA and I know that as long as I'm willing to be, I'll be open to many more.

Amy

screen3

Those who "know" me must have known I would jump on this one.

I quit my 20+ year alcohol abuse habit after reading the first section of RR:The New Cure and I was drinking martinis while reading it (and sneaking to the bathroom to take some hits off my hidden bottle so my girlfriend wouldn't see). It was as if a light came on in my head and I suddenly realized how stupid it was to poison myself and how I did in fact have the power to not drink. I have found that, armed with the knowledge in that book, I am almost physically unable to drink alcohol and haven't the slightest desire to do so. This is not because of some brainwashing, but because the things I learned appeal so much to my "Rational" and intelligent mind that I could never again justify doing something so stupid, selfish and irresponsible. Not only does it point out all the many negative aspects of drinking and the many positive aspects of NOT drinking in ways you may never have thought of, but it teaches a mental technique (AVRT) which allows one to immediately silence the addictive voice inside that cares nothing about you or anyone or anything that you love, but only says "Drink, Drink, Drink!" whatever the cost, including your life if necessary. Using AVRT, this voice appears less and less frequently and becomes so easy to control that it is laughable. I recently used AVRT to quit smoking and it has made it almost effortless. AVRT is a very powerful mental technique that can be used to overcome almost any habit that one feels is affecting ones life in a negative way. So, that is a very general summary of RR.

Regarding the AA bashing that goes on both in the RR book and on the RR discussion forums, AA and RR are two completely opposite methods for attaining sobriety. I suppose you could think of it as Republicans vs Democrats, Democracy vs Communism or any other ideologies that are so different and in which criticism abounds between the two. About RR, I think the only "legitimate" negative things you can say relate in some way to the fact that it bashes AA and 12 step "recovery". About AA, you can say the following:

- It teaches powerlessness rather than power over addictions.
- It teaches one to rely on the sponsor, the group, the higher power, the steps, the Big Book, etc. rather than self-reliance, self-discipline, maturity and morality to be sober.
- It teaches people to see themselves as diseased, thus giving them an excuse to relapse. There is no proof of the disease concept.
- It requires and inordinate amount of time going to meetings and listening to people share about their sordid pasts, focusing on negative things that cannot be changed rather than on the future which can be controlled to a large extent.
- It is a lifelong struggle to remain tentatively sober.
- It is a religious organization. No real room for atheists or agnostics.
- Many people are forced into 12 step rehab against their will through our court system.
- AA is not free because our addiction treatment industry makes billions referring people to 12 step treatment programs. Most of those people "keep coming back" to the treatment centers and our insurance companies pick up most of the tab. Plus, you have to pay for the Big Book and pay dues at the meetings (or feel guilty). I paid $14.95 + tax for the RR book and that is all I have invested.

The list goes on and I would be happy to debate any of these statements and more with whomever is interested. I would like to point out that people who use RR do not "hate" people in AA. They completely oppose (you could say hate, I guess) the methods of 12 step programs and actually have sympathy for those who have been duped into thinking they are powerless over addiction and that it has to be a lifelong struggle to remain sober "one day at a time" rather than a sudden and joyous epiphany and an end to ones former pathetic behavior. You could say, however, that people who use RR do feel superior, and therefore condescending, in that they have used such a simple, effective and immediate method of recovery rather than such a slow (neverending really), painful one.

However, I do think that it is better to remain sober with AA than to be a wretched drunk or dead.

Now, here is the big question: Who among you who rejects or criticizes RR has actually read "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction", by Jack Trimpey, without prejudice? You will not know what RR is about by reading the discussion forums, which is simply made up of posts by individuals with varying opinions and, yes, some of them are assholes, including myself at times. I have read the Big Book multiple times and attended many AA meetings.

phoenix

Yes...it seems you are powerless over your reaction to any mention of RR

Thanks for sharing what works for you

Too bad you couldn't resist going on to your inevitable debate.I don't think you can compare it to politics simply because it is so one sided.RR requires the AA bashing,and it seems impossible for you to post in a discussion without giving your somewhat biased opinion of what is wrong with AA.On the other hand,AA requires no bashing of other methods and we tend not to engage in it.Beyond saying that I find the relentless negativity difficult to read through,I have no criticism of RR.I do,however,wish that the members who come here could stick to sharing what works for them,and ease up on the bashing.Leave that stuff on the RR site where it is welcomed.


It's interesting that so much of what you wrote bears a striking resemblance to what gets shared at meetings.In fact it's hard to see where you are any different from an AA member in some respects.You still devote time and energy every day to doing what works for you.It's just the face to face meetings you don't get involved in

Again,leave the bashing where it is welcomed.Your view of AA is distorted,but you are welcome to talk about what works for you.

phoenix

screen3

I gave my thoughtful and honest feedback. Have you read the RR book?

phoenix

And it would have been awesome if you could have given the honest and thoughtful feedback and left it at that.Only you know why you feel compelled to go into the negativity and attempt to turn a discussion into a debate.I have not read the RR book,and don't care to read it.It just doesn't interest me.When I post,I am able to discuss what works for me without attempting to discredit what works for others.Again...I suggest you do the same.

phoenix

screen3

Part of what I was responding to was why RR criticizes AA. How can I respond without saying something specific? I rarely criticize AA on this board unless it is in response to a post such as this one which invites it. That is not to say that I do not offer thoughts that support my point of view which, in many cases, are opposite of those of AA and, therefore, viewed as critical. But that is "what works for me".

You have not read the RR book so you cannot discuss this topic intelligently as is obvious in your responses. I have read the Big Book and attended AA meetings so my view is NOT skewed, unlike yours. I suggest YOU stay out of this discussion, which I have a feeling is already over because no one will be able to say anything intelligent to disprove what I have said.

phoenix

Nothing in this topic invited the harsh criticism and the baiting you are engaging in.Neither is there any intelligence lacking in my response.I haven't read your book,but I also don't insist on attempting to discredit your program.You may have read the Big Book,and attended meetings but you have a strong anti AA bias which shows itself in several of your false and misleading statements regarding the quality of recovery.I am well aware of your motive for this behavior....and you have been warned about it in the past.

I suggested that you stick to discussing what works for you and leave the AA bashing on your RR board.That means you are welcome to participate,but you should refrain from attacking members and their beliefs.Read the guidelines.

You have no business suggesting that the moderators or members stay out of any discussion.The forums are open for discussion,but they are not the place for baiting and bashing.

phoenix

screen3

I've thought about it and you are right. I should have just said the following:

I quit my 20+ year alcohol abuse habit after reading the first section of RR:The New Cure and I was drinking martinis while reading it (and sneaking to the bathroom to take some hits off my hidden bottle so my girlfriend wouldn't see). It was as if a light came on in my head and I suddenly realized how stupid it was to poison myself and how I did in fact have the power to not drink. I have found that, armed with the knowledge in that book, I am almost physically unable to drink alcohol and haven't the slightest desire to do so. This is not because of some brainwashing, but because the things I learned appeal so much to my "Rational" and intelligent mind that I could never again justify doing something so stupid, selfish and irresponsible. Not only does it point out all the many negative aspects of drinking and the many positive aspects of NOT drinking in ways you may never have thought of, but it teaches a mental technique (AVRT) which allows one to immediately silence the addictive voice inside that cares nothing about you or anyone or anything that you love, but only says "Drink, Drink, Drink!" whatever the cost, including your life if necessary. Using AVRT, this voice appears less and less frequently and becomes so easy to control that it is laughable. I recently used AVRT to quit smoking and it has made it almost effortless. AVRT is a very powerful mental technique that can be used to overcome almost any habit that one feels is affecting ones life in a negative way. So, that is a very general summary of RR.

phoenix

Excellent ....thank you very much screen3.

phoenix

screen3

You're welcome and I'm sorry I was once again offensive. However, I can't understand why any addict would not be interested in what I described in my last post.

Ophelia

Phoenix, Jay Walker, Screen, Dolphin, Georgia Girl, NinerFan,

Thank you all so much for your responses. This has really been helpful to me. I don't mind a healthy debate. We should all be able to express ourselves and our differences as long as we do it in a respectful way. One of the many things you said screen caught my eye:
I agree with you completely, as I have sensed this superior attitude, even been able to relate to it. I had this very same attitude the entire time I was using, but probably to a worse degree. My ego was completely out of control. I was extremely quick to judge others and basically thought most people were idiots. It hurts to even say that now, but the truth is I really did think I and the few who were close to me were the only ones in the "know" and nobody else got it. My losing battle with alcohol humbled me like nothing else could have and I think after my last statement you might all agree that I needed to be humbled. I am very careful in recovery not to let myself fall back into those judgmental patterns as I know that would lead me down the road to being sick again.

One of the things I find interesting is that I was taught the AVRT method in my 12 step treatment program. It's something I use all the time. The 12 steps are my framework, and I am working them. I need to find a better way of living, drinking way to much alcohol was actually a very small part of my overall problem.

One other thing I've been thinking about, I keep hearing how difficult it is to quit drinking and then RR people making fun of that notion because they've done it with complete and total ease etc...I can honestly say for my own self that drinking everyday morning noon and night which was exactly what I was doing in the end was the hardest thing I've ever done. My life is so much easier now than when I was drinking like that. I find it ironic that the big book describes alcoholics as always wanting the easier softer way and in reality what we think is going to be easier and softer inevitably turns into an impossibly hard way of life.

phoenix

I agree.When you discuss it in that way it does sound interesting.It'd be cool if there were a site that utilizes the techniques with that type of presentation.Maybe you have a future in web design

phoenix

screen3

Actually, I am a web designer, programmer and network engineer.

Peter

quote:
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Originally posted by screen3
You're welcome and I'm sorry I was once again offensive. However, I can't understand why any addict would not be interested in what I described in my last post.
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Perhaps the reason for this is because most of the people I have met on this forum who utilizes your method of recovery tend to deliver their message in a very arrogant manner.

I personally find it very distateful to try and exalt one method of recovery while tearing down another.

There is something inherently "anti recovery" about this.

Screen you said a lot in your post about AA being a religious programme and about AA not being free.

I wont even bother wasting my time trying to tell you just how incorrect those statements are because I think your mind is already closed as far as AA is concerned.

I have not read the RR book nor have I even visited the site,but then neither have you read the AA Big Book.(If you had you would not be making some of the statements you make)

I trust the feedback I get from the other people on this forum that has visited it and I am confident enough in my own recovery to determine that what RR has to offer would not work for me nor am I particularly impressed with the quality of recovery I see displayed by some of it's members when they visit this website.

Peter

BikerBill8

All I know is A A is the only real twelve step program all the others got help from A A. But whatever works for you works that is good too. For me it is A A Be Cool BikerBill8