screen3

I have read the Big Book twice and to me "higher power" means religious. In fact, AA began largely as the result of a (probably drug-induced) religious experience of Bill Wilson's. I maintain that AA is not free to society as a whole for the reason I stated in my original post in this thread. I regret not limiting that post to only the positive aspects of RR and I don't want to argue about it anymore either. I thought the person who started this post was wanting information about RR and also why they critcize AA. Just because I'm sober, doesn't mean I don't make mistakes.

DolphinBlue

Don't want to perpetuate anything here, just wanted to say that I didn't mean to come off as though I making a well-informed opinion about RR, or RR bashing in my last post. I don't know enough about it, I never claimed to know very much about it. Just sharing my experience, which was not a lot, and how it was for me.

Just wanted to clear that up!

Amy

Peter

I am sorry I misjudged you about reading The AA Big Book.It is unreasonable to expect everyone to have the same interpretation I did.I apologize.

Whether Bill W's book evolved from a drug induced mind or not is not my place to decide.

I still remain grateful to him for writing some of the most beautiful recovery literature I have ever read and for showing me a better way to live.

Peter

Ophelia

Screen, I did want to find out more about RR and I did wonder why they bashed AA. I also wanted to find out other peoples experience with the RR website as it did momentarily throw me off kilter. I was not expecting what I got there. What can I say, I'm brand new and had never heard anything about RR except that somebody in my after-care group recommended it. That kind of flies in the face of treatment centers being banned from even mentioning RR. In treatment, it simply was not my experience that there was some kind of conspiracy to keep people from seeking out alternative forms of recovery.

I appreciate your feedback. AA works for me and I don't consider myself duped or brainwashed though I certainly won't tell you what to think on the matter. I did thoroughly check out the RR site and as I said before, already learned the AVRT technique in my 12 step treatment program which I use successfully everyday.

One observation I have to make, it seems like you need a lot of attention and I can't help but notice you are definitely getting it here!

I'm glad you're here and I'm glad you've found success in staying abstinent from drugs and alcohol.

Ophelia

Amy, I didn't interpret anything in your post as RR bashing. I appreciated that you shared your experience with me as I feel like I'm going through a similar process. I also need peace of mind and spirit. Growing spiritually is one of the great gifts that AA is giving me. I need this and I want it. Being centered and feeling safe in myself is a new and wonderful experience. I've spent most of my life trying to get out of myself. This might not be every drinkers experience, but it was mine. To be left alone with myself and sober was at first a very frightening experience. I also knew that I needed something more. Thanks for sharing...Ophelia

DolphinBlue

Hi Ophelia,

It was really good to relate to your experience as well. I've not heard a story so similar to my own and am so glad to know that I'm not alone because it was a very scary time for me also.

Thanks for your reply and for sharing.

Amy

Don S

AA is not religious? Really?

As to the AA hostility found at RR: SMART Recovery was founded when Jack Trimpey, the founder of RR, turned it into a "for-profit" program. His hostility to AA permeates RR, and clearly he does not feel there is any way one can make use of the best of both systems. The directors parted ways with him and established SMART as a non-profit recovery organization based on the cognitive behavioral approach of Ellis. There is another thread in which I discussed the precepts of SMART, and the website links are there, as well as at the bottom of this page under 12-Step Alternatives. RR is no longer the primary or best alternative to AA.

I suppose it isn't too surprising that his group is so hostile to AA, as Rational Recovery was the first non-12-step system. AA is the 800-lb. gorilla of the recovery world, being firmly entrenched in the medical and legal systems. Non-religious people object to being ordered to attend AA meetings, as it clearly has a religious basis, but most who are in that situation aren't exactly ready to take on a constitutional challenge when the alternative is jail time! So they attend their mandatory meetings, seethe with anger, and satisfy the court. Not a promising approach to achieving sobriety, and it's long past time for the courts to recognize alternative sobriety programs.

I quit drinking using the principles of SMART Recovery. Many who come to the SMART forum board are ex-AA'ers who are very hostile about it. It is described as cult-like, and there are plenty of horror stories. Perhaps they find it cathartic to dump on AA. I don't find that useful, having no experience with AA meetings to compare with SMART in structure or technique. All I know is that I read the 12 steps of AA, found it imbued with religion, and quickly decided it was not for me. SMART appeals to my scientific background, and, like RR, the concepts are pretty simple. One big difference is that RR is hostile to AA, while SMART is indifferent about it.

If for some reason you want to read more from folks who had bad experiences with AA, here's one link:
http://www.aadeprogramming.com/index_frames.html
But I hope that folks who make a habit of bashing AA are somehow finding that useful to their own recovery.

In my opinion, AA was historically important for having provided a medical basis for substance abuse treatment, via the "disease model", as opposed to the "moral" approach of the Temperance movement. But that medical basis was flawed by the reliance on a religious system, and since then that disease model has been applied to all kinds of other behaviors. Sex addiction? Internet addiction? Come on...that's getting ludicrous, and it gives an aura of unavoidability to what are really conscious decisions or compulsive behaviors.

RR was a useful departure, in that it recognized the newly emerging field of behavioral science, and SMART continues that. Research into the biochemistry of drugs and our brains, and of the genetic basis of drug use, will help us develop even more effective drug treatment systems for chronic abusers. The recovery programs that have a scientific basis are going to be more able to make use of new research than will a rigid system such as AA.

All of the abstinence-based recovery systems agree that the best, first step in sobriety is to quit drinking. Now. Then you can worry about why you drink, how you're going to avoid drinking, how you're going to feel about it, and what you'll do to make your life more meaningful--and possibly even achieve happiness, or at least contentment. That's all much easier to figure out if you aren't drinking.

Don S

Digits101010

Since my $0.02 is so freaking important lemme go on ahead and jump on in here! [My ego told me to!]

First, the good news: I have taken the online internet crash course on AVRT and am pronouncing myself CURED! I will never drink again. I took it over a month ago, learned a LOT and DO refer to my disease as "the addictive voice" or "beast" what have you. [I shared this with my sponsor and she didn't think anything was wrong with it.]

Secondly: I bought the Rational Recovery book.

Now the bad news: After then finding the FORUM @ Rational Recovery's website and the way people can be so scathingly skeptical and critical of AA, THAT wasn't good for me. It kinda removed the validation of RR's assertion. SO, the book is here collecting dust and I haven't opened the first page of it... yet. Maybe one day I will. [I had shared this with my sponsor, buying the book and it was funny... After I'd shelved it, she recommended maybe I shelve it until I get straightened out and okay with where I was. [ie, Don't eat anymore *food* until I figured out what was making me sick.]] Cause I was VERY sick at this time.

What had been going on with me at the time was AA burnout of my own making. I was going to EVERY single meeting I could find. I don't know why... it just morphed into that. Then one day I needed an excuse to stop altogether and came online, found the deprogramming website and RR's. My SO came home, I pronounced AA as a cult, said I was never going again, bought the book, next morning told my sponsor what I'd said... She laughed and said: "Yeah your extremist alright. All or nothing."

She tells me I am and when I do it, she points it out and I get oh so much more brilliant... not really. Anyway, we made a schedule and I went to only 3 pre-arranged meetings that week and how did I feel? It worked. I was doing a controlled balance and it worked. I got back on track, I was able to clean my house again, start eating right again, get my relationship with my SO back on track, and realize I wouldn't fall apart if I stood still for a second. It was great how my Mom even helped during this emotional crisis.

She called one day, had the nerve to ask what was going on and I told her I was having a hard time trying to merge the two trains of thoughts together... AA + RR. But I told her RR people seemed to loathe and despise AA and when I brought the RR book up to some AA friends they tried giving me the business. She said the truth was probably somewhere in the grey area and it would be okay if I didn't figure it out. That sometimes it was okay to not know. [... And that was the first time I'd ever mentioned to my Mom anything indepth about my recovery. I thought she'd poo poo it or not understand or worse, not care. Again, this woman amazed me. Go Mom!!] She will never understand the gift she passed onto me that day.

So where I am today is of this mind: I appreciate what RR offers and I utilize what I know about it. I appreciate what AA offers and since it's what helped me stay initially sober and gave/gives me a place to go when life happened/happens I will never be okay in bashing it or appreciating anyone, not a part of it, to criticize it. If I am cured of drinking that's great! But AA, for me, teaches me how to live, and to have serenity now that I don't drink anymore. If I had nothing but a drinking problem, I wouldn't need AA, I could read RR and be done with it. As it is, I have a living problem - I didn't/don't know how to do it so well.

And even if I could live okay without AA, right now, I'd become complacent and my spirituality would suffer as a result of it. This peace I have glimmers of is spectacular, and to stop drinking for me isn't the solution. It's the beginning of the solution: To stop drinking to give myself the opportunity to grow into a new way of spiritual life. A.A. gives me that.

I'm not AA enough (?) and I'm not RR enough (?). That's okay, because I'm okay with that. I take and use what I need from each and it works. "But ya can't be both!" the masses screamed. "They're in direct conflict with each other!""Yes I can!" Digits responded back. "Cause when my brain is done with it, they compliment each other nicely!" If I don't have a problem with it, my sponsor doesn't have a problem with it, and even AA itself states: "Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help another alcoholic achieve sobriety" then it doesn't matter how I do it.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Don S

It's been done:
http://www.skysite.org/

For more info:
http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources.html

Don S

justaround

I always found this topic very interesting when it wasn't in the middle of a newcomer's thread. Don S., you have some very interesting points and very good information discussing the SMART program. I have never looked too much in depth of this program alone but have looked into Rational Recovery. I to believe that AA is a religious program, this however is no problem for me. Mandatory Belief in a higher power does constitute as religious. Whether it be God or a coffee mug (It has been done). The reason I always found Rational Recovery interesting was because of its scientific basis and use of psychology. Cognitive and behavioral psychology have been proven to be VERY useful in the field of science. On the other hand there are some parts of Rational Recovery which just didn't work for me. It didn't work for me after awhile because I started losing track of my addiction and where it had taken me. I was not happy. I also didn't understand why it was neccesary to bash AA.

Digits I have used the same technique as you for quiet some time now. AA with techniques used by Rational Recovery. I don't need to, but want to keep going to meetings because they remind me of what I have and keep me on track. They keep me informed. I do sober things with other people in the program. It all works. I also read the Big Book daily for it has some very good information and stories in which I can read over in times of need. It doesn't let me down. Having a sponsor is also a great help. The higher power...well I have my opinions over that subject. Rational Recovery teaches me the mental techniques to put into use during time of need. It teaches many useful tricks. This combination keeps me sober and there isn't much more I could ask for. I guess whatever works

phoenix

Interesting...but not quite what I had in mind.

The first site seems to be a collection of essays,from a variety of sources.Some have been making the rounds as e mail forwards for ages.Some of the principles are familiar,as AA also uses them.

And the SMART board is a lot less vindictive than RR,at least on the surface.But what's the point of posting over here,and then taking the post back there to discuss the reaction you got? How would you feel if people posted on your forum and then cross posted the discussion elsewhere and ridiculed you?

Speaking only for myself, that seems like a violation of trust,as well as a lack of respect and common courtesy.I'm certain that the newcomer you responded to hardly expected the post to be cut and pasted on another website.Having seen quite a bit of it,I find myself increasingly reluctant to trust the motives of the RR and SMART people who post here.



phoenix

Don S

The point of posting my response to one post from this forum was that I thought it might be of interest to folks there. In fact, here is what I wrote as an introduction to that:
" Hi, folks,
I've joined munchdaddy visiting over at the soberrecovery.org forum board. The folks there are mostly 12-step AA'ers, and part of my reason for joining was my curiousity about that system because I have NO experience with it except what I read from disillusioned folks here and at Rational Recovery. They are friendly and haven't been hostile to my discussions of SMART, although they do tend to give the same answers for all situations: do the steps, get a sponsor, go to meetings.....
Here is my reply to a new visitor there, as I thought it might be helpful to new folks here as well. Some of the forum leaders there have started mentioning SMART as an alternative to AA when the question comes up."

Did I ridicule someone? Is this a violation of trust? How was I disrespectful? These are open forums, and the same issues come up at both sites. I would be perfectly fine with someone posting anything I post anywhere, and would enjoy discussing it. So now you mistrust my motives.

I believe my posts here have been respectful, and I hope they've been helpful to some.

What's your problem, Phoenix?

Don S

Don S

Here's the whole thread, for anyone that wants to read it, from the SMART Recovery Forum Board:

http://smartrecovery.infopop.cc/6/ub...1&m=7706074143

Don

Debbie

Perhaps the links are the problem, they are for me. If you read the rules and regulations of this site, rule #1

1. Soberrecovery.com is a privately owned website and reserves the right to remove or restrict any user without notice. Additionally, unwelcome are persons with political or controversial agendas, and persons who use the forums to link to, or promote, other websites and/or products. RR defenders and proselytizers may also be removed without notice as well.

We have changed links to other sites to the the 12step alternative link because the methods you talk about and use are in this link:http://soberrecovery.com/links/12stepalternatives.html

People have been asked quite nicely to refrain from posting links to other sites and yet continue to post them, that is disrespectful. Not sure what the powers that be will decide to do here perhaps banning for not abiding by the rules? I guess we will wait and see.

I just can't imagine going to these other websites and posting links to AA and SR and them being allowed to stay there. People have been banned at RR when its known they are pro-12step. I have no clue about how these other sites would react.

But just to let you know, when you signed up you agreed to abide by the rules, so I think everyone should. Mods and administration will do what they have to do and do what they see fit to keep things running smoothly and see that the rules are being followed.

Have a great day all!
Debbie

And I do think I would be a bit pissed if my words were posted some where else when they were only intended to be posted here. Yes, I find that direspectful too.

Digits101010

I appreciate your saying that Jordan. Appreciate your just saying it and helping me to not feel so alone to find someone else in the program of AA who does it. {Believe it or not, you're the first person I've met who's claimed to me they do it as well.} I agree... whatever works and it works for me. Thanks again for the affirmation.

Yours in recovery,
Digits

Morning Glory

I have no objection to anyone sharing their experience and techniques regarding their success with sobriety.

I do not like it when any thread turns into a competition or argument. This leaves the person who is asking for help with no help. Share your experience and leave it at that.

This is not a search engine
This is not a free for all links site
This is not a site to promote your web site
This is a recovery forum

If you choose to be your own higher power, great. Just remember that everyone has their freedom of choice when it comes to their spirituality. To ridicule their choice is not acceptable.

Stick to your experience. Share your success. Leave the links on the search engines. People can find your site just like they found this one. We don't need to post links on every thread. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look up Rational Recovery or Smart Recovery on a search engine.

What you see here should stay here. We are not here to feed your need to save us and share your success or failure with others. We are a family trying to recover and support each other in the process.

munchdaddy

MG,
you are absolutely correct. Problem is, you have some moderators here who reply in a challenging way to anyone with an alternaive to AA post, and subsequently criticize when their replys are chllenged back. This is the alcoholism forum, not the AA one. As for cross posting, who cares? What is to say that you can only participate in one forum. Come on over to SMaRT. Their coordinators will do nothing but welcome you.

justaround

This subject looks like it is still staying hot. Munchdaddy, it is true that the moderators tend to challenge ideas that go against the twelve step program but this usually only happens when they are challenged. This is just from a bird's eye view. Rational recovery and SMART seem to be the two most popular alternatives to AA and usually when this subject is brought up the person talks less of their personal experience with it and more of the recovery program's views and how they compare with AA. The moderators don't specifically bring up all the aspects of AA but their own personal experience with it.

phoenix

Joined munchdaddy ? So you've followed his posts and are aware that his stated purpose in coming here has been to disrupt and agitate?That surprised me.I did have the impression that you were of a different character.Maybe I was mistaken?

I don't have a problem.Apparently you didn't understand what I said.It is a violation of trust and a lack of respect.Maybe you wouldn't mind having your words carried elsewhere without your knowledge or permission.But it doesn't follow that everyone feels the same way.Consider the fact that the post you lifted was from our Newcomer's forum.For a lot of people,that's their first attempt at asking for help.I doubt they intend for it to become the topic of discussion elsewhere.I'd suggest using the courtesy requested at meetings and let what others post here stay here.Understood?

phoenix

Don S

Hi, Debbie, and Morning Glory,
You're right, I think anyone can now find the links they want and they ARE at the bottom of the page. I did post the link to skysite.org because it is a personal web page, not an official site, and it seemed to meet what Phoenix was asking for earlier in the thread. My prior posting of the links was in response to a specific thread comparing techniques. I have no agenda in coming here.

A point I wanted to make, which is kind of getting lost, is that there are non-12-step alternatives to RR! It has a tone that really turns some people off, which was the gist of the first post in this whole thread. I wouldn't be surprised if 12-steppers are banned at RR. Links to this forum board were posted at SMART and folks there have expressed interest.

At one point, a couple of years ago, I posted the 12 Steps at the SMART forum board when I felt they were being discussed out of context. Yep, some of the folks were outraged, others were amused, and it provoked a lively and useful discussion. But I felt then, as I do now, that I didn't really know enough about AA to discuss it on any more than a general theoretical (you might say doctrinal) basis.

In the future I will ask permission before cross-posting. I do think Phoenix was rude, and that her comments were specifically directed at me, so I responded. I'll update my profile so my email address is available. That way discussions can be taken off this list when appropriate. I agree that it is best to stay on topic, and that comparisons should be kept on threads that are specifically on that topic. Again, I hope my contributions here are useful.
Don S