A.A. and our modern society.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 872
GREAT observation!
Last night I was in a counseling session (I started seeing a counselor mostly for stress, but my past drinking surely comes up)...
He quoted from a book called "Pleasure Addicts." I think it's out of print now, but I am trying to find myself a copy...
Basically, the quote described me to a tee -- talking about "instant gratification, instant results, and wanting what I want, how I want it and when I want it!"
I fully agree with you -- some folks sit in AA for a month or even 90 days and think that it's not for them. Now, a lot of that rests on our shoulders -- and I am guilty of it too, of not taking the newcomer aside and discussing things, offering sponsorship, etc. I think if a good sponsor works a newcomer through the steps sooner rather than later (as the Big Book lays it out), we would see a much higher success rate.
I think, also -- bottoms are so much higher now than when AA first started. I know a guy with over 50 years, and he tells stories of people coming to AA, and if they owned a watch, they weren't allowed in b/c they hadn't hit bottom!!!! Thank God that now people can recognize their bottoms much sooner and not lose EVERYTHING. Problem with that (I had the same problem a few years ago) -- too easy to think "it's not that bad, maybe I'm not an alcoholic, I'm not as bad as that guy, I haven't lost everything (yet)... etc."
Great post, and I'm sure we'll see some flames yet!
NMB
Last night I was in a counseling session (I started seeing a counselor mostly for stress, but my past drinking surely comes up)...
He quoted from a book called "Pleasure Addicts." I think it's out of print now, but I am trying to find myself a copy...
Basically, the quote described me to a tee -- talking about "instant gratification, instant results, and wanting what I want, how I want it and when I want it!"
I fully agree with you -- some folks sit in AA for a month or even 90 days and think that it's not for them. Now, a lot of that rests on our shoulders -- and I am guilty of it too, of not taking the newcomer aside and discussing things, offering sponsorship, etc. I think if a good sponsor works a newcomer through the steps sooner rather than later (as the Big Book lays it out), we would see a much higher success rate.
I think, also -- bottoms are so much higher now than when AA first started. I know a guy with over 50 years, and he tells stories of people coming to AA, and if they owned a watch, they weren't allowed in b/c they hadn't hit bottom!!!! Thank God that now people can recognize their bottoms much sooner and not lose EVERYTHING. Problem with that (I had the same problem a few years ago) -- too easy to think "it's not that bad, maybe I'm not an alcoholic, I'm not as bad as that guy, I haven't lost everything (yet)... etc."
Great post, and I'm sure we'll see some flames yet!
NMB
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cumming, Ga
Posts: 665
Fallgirl, step 1 and powerlessness in particular doesn't absolve me of reponsibility. Quite the opposite. When I sat down with my sponsor and did step 1, we spent 2 session just going over my drinking history. I was rigorously honest and what I found was that I had lost control over alcohol. When I take the first drink, it's a crap shoot and the best result I can hope for is to come to the next day remorseful. But it can go much differently. I can end up in jail, the hopsital, I can lose a job, I can wreck a car. All of those things happened and more than once. I can lose relationships. All of this because once I drink, there is no telling when the binge will stop. As my disease progressed, not only had I lost control after the first drink, I couldn't avoid the first drink. If I stopped for any length of time I had to go through withdrawl. In the end, I couldn't drink and I couldn't not drink, and that is a hopeless state. Now here's the kicker and alot of people gloss over this part of the 1st step.... my life was unmanageable, and still is. All of my relationships, friendships, professional relationships, financial life, employment etc were adversely effected by my drinking. There was not a single area of my life that had not been effected by alcoholism. Now that is unmanageability. I had to put in on paper to really see it in an unmanageability list. Then and only then was I able to really get a grasp on the 1st step. There were no gray areas left. I had to get step 1 100% in order to move forward. I needed a solid foundation. So, if you're struggling with it just dig into it and be honest. The question is do you have control over alcohol, or does it have control over you? Now, the question of choice is a different topic. We do have choice, but we have to get sober to get it.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,002
The original reason I created this topic was because the other night I was flipping through channels and there were three commercials promoting some kind of pill back to back.
The first one was a commercial that was promoting another weight loss system. There half naked people, club music, and some "doctor" claiming that they back this drug and it works quickly and effectively.
The second commercial was a "male enhancement" commercial, which really needs no further explanation.
And the third one was a Viagra commercial, where a bunch of guys are jamming in a roadside bar singing about how they can now have a erection.
With commercials like these, I can see how people can assume there must be some kind of wonder drug, or freakishly white teeth person exclaiming of a method to solve your alcohol and/or drug addiction, with promise with just a monthly fee, all your woes can be melted away.
I believe it's morally wrong, for one to make a greedy profit off something that is quickly or slowly killing you.
I also want to mention again that this thread was not created to promote or defend AA.
Tom
The first one was a commercial that was promoting another weight loss system. There half naked people, club music, and some "doctor" claiming that they back this drug and it works quickly and effectively.
The second commercial was a "male enhancement" commercial, which really needs no further explanation.
And the third one was a Viagra commercial, where a bunch of guys are jamming in a roadside bar singing about how they can now have a erection.
With commercials like these, I can see how people can assume there must be some kind of wonder drug, or freakishly white teeth person exclaiming of a method to solve your alcohol and/or drug addiction, with promise with just a monthly fee, all your woes can be melted away.
I believe it's morally wrong, for one to make a greedy profit off something that is quickly or slowly killing you.
I also want to mention again that this thread was not created to promote or defend AA.
Tom
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 113
Lot of money to made off of the desperate i guess.
part of my problem was with the term "recovered". I mean i would guess everyone would want this to end, to be "recovered", But when I gave up on ever thinking i'd be "recovered", i've started to do ok recovering now that i don't care if it takes the rest of my life, all that i need to learn, work on etc... I've lost the how do i get this over with as quickly as possible view of it all.
part of my problem was with the term "recovered". I mean i would guess everyone would want this to end, to be "recovered", But when I gave up on ever thinking i'd be "recovered", i've started to do ok recovering now that i don't care if it takes the rest of my life, all that i need to learn, work on etc... I've lost the how do i get this over with as quickly as possible view of it all.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 226
I have not investigated other programs of recovery. All I know is AA.
What I wonder, though, when thinking about other programs of recovery is whether they offer what has come to mean the most to me in AA.
You see, I quit drinking for 3 years many years ago. During that time, I continued to have anxiety, depression and self-esteem issues. Looking back I can see that even though I wasn't drinking, I didn't know how to live.
AA teaches me how to live. It teaches me how to live by passing along and drawing me into the distilled (what better way to present something to an alcoholic!) historical wisdom of the world's religions and programs of spirituality. This wisdom is the product of one thing and one thing only: the knowledge and experience gained through human suffering.
What I've learned in AA has helped me to feel connected to a very wide range of human experience. When I reach out beyond AA to other sources of spirituality, I am reassured and gratified to find that it is all much the same as what I was first exposed to in the Program.
Given what I've learned in AA, and the changes I've experienced in outlook and in my reaction to life, I can't imagine what another program of recovery could do for me to produce so satisfying, deep and mature a way of life. Where else would I have the opportunity to learn and practice the honesty, hope, trust, responsibility, patience, tolerance, acceptance, goodwill, humility and gratitude that have become the basis of a life more satisfying and graceful than I would have guessed possible? If there are other communities that offer an opportunity to live and share those values, please let me know. I'll join them too!
In the end, it doesn't really matter what we think about all this. AA works for some and doesn't for others. Those it works for are glad it does. And for those it doesn't work for, it doesn't work.
But I would venture to guess that those who best find their way in AA are those that are capable of allowing themselves to take a journey that involves a great expansion of consciousness, a journey that offers repeated challenges to and opportunities for one's cognitive, emotional, and spiritual growth. Along the way, if we allow ourselves, we get to encounter the very best in ourselves and others. And experience in the deepest and most profound way the miracles of life and existence.
As a man tonight stated when picking up his 30 year chip, "I quit drinking 30 years ago, but I'm still getting sober." Many people won't get what he's referring to, and so any number of cynical reactions might come to mind. But I know I'm not the only one who heard that and thought with a smile and a swelling heart -- "Wow!"
What I wonder, though, when thinking about other programs of recovery is whether they offer what has come to mean the most to me in AA.
You see, I quit drinking for 3 years many years ago. During that time, I continued to have anxiety, depression and self-esteem issues. Looking back I can see that even though I wasn't drinking, I didn't know how to live.
AA teaches me how to live. It teaches me how to live by passing along and drawing me into the distilled (what better way to present something to an alcoholic!) historical wisdom of the world's religions and programs of spirituality. This wisdom is the product of one thing and one thing only: the knowledge and experience gained through human suffering.
What I've learned in AA has helped me to feel connected to a very wide range of human experience. When I reach out beyond AA to other sources of spirituality, I am reassured and gratified to find that it is all much the same as what I was first exposed to in the Program.
Given what I've learned in AA, and the changes I've experienced in outlook and in my reaction to life, I can't imagine what another program of recovery could do for me to produce so satisfying, deep and mature a way of life. Where else would I have the opportunity to learn and practice the honesty, hope, trust, responsibility, patience, tolerance, acceptance, goodwill, humility and gratitude that have become the basis of a life more satisfying and graceful than I would have guessed possible? If there are other communities that offer an opportunity to live and share those values, please let me know. I'll join them too!
In the end, it doesn't really matter what we think about all this. AA works for some and doesn't for others. Those it works for are glad it does. And for those it doesn't work for, it doesn't work.
But I would venture to guess that those who best find their way in AA are those that are capable of allowing themselves to take a journey that involves a great expansion of consciousness, a journey that offers repeated challenges to and opportunities for one's cognitive, emotional, and spiritual growth. Along the way, if we allow ourselves, we get to encounter the very best in ourselves and others. And experience in the deepest and most profound way the miracles of life and existence.
As a man tonight stated when picking up his 30 year chip, "I quit drinking 30 years ago, but I'm still getting sober." Many people won't get what he's referring to, and so any number of cynical reactions might come to mind. But I know I'm not the only one who heard that and thought with a smile and a swelling heart -- "Wow!"
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: anomaly
Posts: 2,180
Thanks for speaking my mind TOM.
I actaully saw that intervention stuff lastnight and it totally disgusted me.
why ??? The camera man and the crew should had smack the kid of the head
instead of filming him shooting up or filming a person putting a crack pipe his/her
mouth.
Why ? will gee whiz man..a guys comes in after all of that and tell the
family or the addict..da be da be doo.." you can died if you stick a needle
in your arm or get high or drunk". Yet they could film a person stcking a
needle in htier arms.
I actaully saw that intervention stuff lastnight and it totally disgusted me.
why ??? The camera man and the crew should had smack the kid of the head
instead of filming him shooting up or filming a person putting a crack pipe his/her
mouth.
Why ? will gee whiz man..a guys comes in after all of that and tell the
family or the addict..da be da be doo.." you can died if you stick a needle
in your arm or get high or drunk". Yet they could film a person stcking a
needle in htier arms.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bristol TN/VA
Posts: 12,431
Yes, it is sad.
Morning Glory had put up some great posts in the secular forum that I believe couldn be an enhacement to the AA program.
I really like the one that is based on Albert Ellis's work. it is titled pin pointing nasty cognitions.
Morning Glory had put up some great posts in the secular forum that I believe couldn be an enhacement to the AA program.
I really like the one that is based on Albert Ellis's work. it is titled pin pointing nasty cognitions.
Grateful recovering alcoholic
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 11
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
To me this sounds like a cop out. Are we supposed to just absolve ourselves of responsibility?
To me this sounds like a cop out. Are we supposed to just absolve ourselves of responsibility?
I have similar feelings to yours about the idea that alcoholism is a disease. If I have a disease, then I'm not responsible for acting like a drunk, right? But if I had, say, diabetes, I would be responsible for treating my disease, and would have nobody to blame but myself if I failed to take my insulin.
Alcoholism isn't curable, but it's treatable. The American Medical Association has declared that alcoholism is a disease. As it says on the title page of AA's wonderful book Living Sober, "... treatment involves primarily not taking a drink -- American Medical Association".
AA certainly makes it clear that I, and only I, am responsible for whether I pick up a drink.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: TX
Posts: 35
In regard to AA, if the shoe does not fit, do not wear it.
And, AA is not a fit for many people. It was not for me.
I am a secular person; and, soul surgery I did not need.
I needed to regain my ability to think clearly; clarify my emotions; discover more effective coping skills; adjust to new conditions. AA did not have the tools that fit me to do all that. I devised my own plan.
First, put an end to drinking.
Second, determine what I needed to change about my thoughts, my feelings, my actions, my life circumstances. I did that by reading and therapy.
I, now, live well. It took a bit of time to realize that I am well.
People are unique individuals; they are not paper dolls.
Orange papers are a root and branch critique of AA. There is a pov. One is not required to agree
And, AA is not a fit for many people. It was not for me.
I am a secular person; and, soul surgery I did not need.
I needed to regain my ability to think clearly; clarify my emotions; discover more effective coping skills; adjust to new conditions. AA did not have the tools that fit me to do all that. I devised my own plan.
First, put an end to drinking.
Second, determine what I needed to change about my thoughts, my feelings, my actions, my life circumstances. I did that by reading and therapy.
I, now, live well. It took a bit of time to realize that I am well.
People are unique individuals; they are not paper dolls.
Orange papers are a root and branch critique of AA. There is a pov. One is not required to agree
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: woodstock, ny
Posts: 9
Zanthos, its about growing in understanding and effectiveness. I hear a guy say he is still getting sober after 30 years, i'd place even money on he wasn't alcoholic in the first place. Then i'd qualify him. If he is one of us, i'd get him a book and we'd get busy.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 486
Good string. Of course I now feel guilty for reading this while I am drinking my instant coffee that I just got out of the microwave.
I have learned that sobriety is a process and a journey, not an event. I don't expect recovery to be instant and in fact, I want recovery to last for the rest of my life.
AA helps me to maintain my sobriety on a daily basis through the literature, frequent meetings, increased spiritual awareness and a lot of work on my part. The program is set up to be a part of my life, not just a temporary solution. I am sure there are other programs out there that work and If AA wasn't working for me, I would surely seek them out. However, I see many success stories in these forums from AA members, and I see very few from other methods of recovery. With that in mind, I will stick with AA.
Thanks for your post - time for another cup of that great instant stuff!
I have learned that sobriety is a process and a journey, not an event. I don't expect recovery to be instant and in fact, I want recovery to last for the rest of my life.
AA helps me to maintain my sobriety on a daily basis through the literature, frequent meetings, increased spiritual awareness and a lot of work on my part. The program is set up to be a part of my life, not just a temporary solution. I am sure there are other programs out there that work and If AA wasn't working for me, I would surely seek them out. However, I see many success stories in these forums from AA members, and I see very few from other methods of recovery. With that in mind, I will stick with AA.
Thanks for your post - time for another cup of that great instant stuff!
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