If Alcoholism is an Addiction Disease, How can People Binge Drink?
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Originally Posted by queenteree 
wozzek - there is a family problem here.
But, if someone has "his mind shut" this is a serious issue. If he hadn't been drinking forever this symptom would be a red alarm, an urgency of the highest degree by itself. So the lebel "alcoholic" or discussion about "willpower" or "choice" is not important, it only shifts the focus from the real issue, the condition of your man and it seems he's not good at all. It is not easy for you but perhaps is not easy for him either. The question is - does he know that?
Good luck.
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its a chemical thing, and as long as he injects the insulin he's fine. If his levels get out of whack he's not fine.
Anyway, I'm convinced it's not a matter of will power. In general, alcoholics have more "will-power" than other groups anyhow. I do know it fit's the following definition of a disease, that is:
1. It's Chronic
2. It's Progressive
3. It's Fatal (if left untreated)
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My immediate thought when I thought of what an alcoholic was someone who drinks 24/7, has to drink first thing in the morning and various times throughout the day just to function normally. Then reality smacked me right in the face. I didn't drink all the time, only on weekends and not even every weekend. It didn't matter how often I drank. I could NEVER have only 1 or 2. I always ended up having at least 6 drinks in just a matter of an hour or two. I drank purely to get drunk, that was the only reason. Not just to feel the buzz, but to get completely smashed. Then it got to the point where every time I drank I blacked out, it was like that for a year before I finally admitted that there was something wrong. When I'm angry or stressed out alcohol immediately comes to mind.
Moral of the story. How often someone drinks doesn't matter. It's how our bodies react to it that matters.
Moral of the story. How often someone drinks doesn't matter. It's how our bodies react to it that matters.
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
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There's a difference between physical dependence, which can develop with many different substances including alcohol, and the disease of addiction, which has been described in several of the posts above.
Physical dependence can be present without alcoholism and vice versa. Your son sounds like he's confusing the two. Most non-alcoholic/non-addicts have this confusion, just as many phyiscally dependent upon alcohol or drugs are labeled by self or other with the disease of addiction when it's not really present. It's not necessarily whether or not one can put it down; it's whether one can keep it put down.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Physical dependence can be present without alcoholism and vice versa. Your son sounds like he's confusing the two. Most non-alcoholic/non-addicts have this confusion, just as many phyiscally dependent upon alcohol or drugs are labeled by self or other with the disease of addiction when it's not really present. It's not necessarily whether or not one can put it down; it's whether one can keep it put down.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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I can relate to BigSis. I was a binge drinker and when I did drink all hell broke loose.
I could ruin in a couple of days, what I"d been building for a year.
As time went by my body needed more and I ended up drinking every day so I didn't go through withdrawl.
I also agree that no matter how or what we use, it effects our entire being and recovery is about that process...not just getting sober.
warm thoughts your way!
Leslie
I could ruin in a couple of days, what I"d been building for a year.
As time went by my body needed more and I ended up drinking every day so I didn't go through withdrawl.
I also agree that no matter how or what we use, it effects our entire being and recovery is about that process...not just getting sober.
warm thoughts your way!
Leslie
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As a family member of A sister, I have observed many things that she has done and the way the drinking has progressed for her. It has taken quite some years for her now to be what I see as a Cronic Alcoholic. My opinion is that she is really sick and living in hell and she cant get out, Yet! I had the same questions you have, is it a choice and yeah, she pours it down, shes doing this, but now I see it very differently. To tell you the truth, It doesnt matter to me any more if it a disease or addiction or what.
Binge drinking and staying sober for how many whatever days. She is still an alcoholic. I have seen it get slowly worse and fasterly worser. She drinks day and night until she blacks out. Doesnt eat, shower, clean up. The only thing she is capable of it getting more booze. This started with her doing it for 2 days and then a sober up, 3 days and then a sober up. Now it can be 6,7,8,9 days and a sober up. You see she gets that ill and sick she has to stop. The pain in her body gets unbearable to the stage she is screaming just to sit down or lie down. So she has to give her body a rest. Take a few pills, eat a little and then after 2 days off she goes again.
Do you get it. She doesnt choose to be sober, she has to be to repair herself. Then the only thing she things about again is having another drink.
Dont question it. Accept it. You can try and live with it and I wish you good luck but we get to a point of "hitting rock bottom" ourselves. Family members cant take it anymore. She has said this to all her family for 1 or 2 years. "you just dont get it, you think I choose to do this, I wouldnt wish this on anyone"
The pain is unbearable, but she still drinks.
I told her the other day, that " she didnt get it" and when she did, Ill be there for her.
Binge drinking and staying sober for how many whatever days. She is still an alcoholic. I have seen it get slowly worse and fasterly worser. She drinks day and night until she blacks out. Doesnt eat, shower, clean up. The only thing she is capable of it getting more booze. This started with her doing it for 2 days and then a sober up, 3 days and then a sober up. Now it can be 6,7,8,9 days and a sober up. You see she gets that ill and sick she has to stop. The pain in her body gets unbearable to the stage she is screaming just to sit down or lie down. So she has to give her body a rest. Take a few pills, eat a little and then after 2 days off she goes again.
Do you get it. She doesnt choose to be sober, she has to be to repair herself. Then the only thing she things about again is having another drink.
Dont question it. Accept it. You can try and live with it and I wish you good luck but we get to a point of "hitting rock bottom" ourselves. Family members cant take it anymore. She has said this to all her family for 1 or 2 years. "you just dont get it, you think I choose to do this, I wouldnt wish this on anyone"
The pain is unbearable, but she still drinks.
I told her the other day, that " she didnt get it" and when she did, Ill be there for her.
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" she didnt get it"
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I met young man in his mid 20's, while he was in rehab.
He was very intelligent. He tried over and over again.
He would come to my house asking for help or just needed someone to
talk to. He's sponsor was a doctor, also. We all tried to help him.
He relaped, over and over again.
He came to my house oneday, we shot some basket ball.
He looked sick, I didn't know whatesle to tell him.
He knew recovery was important to me...he knew i cared.
A week later he was dead becuase he liver gave out.
maybe he didn't get it , or maybe he did...
Why would person drink to the death ?
Disease or not...i know it kills.
He was very intelligent. He tried over and over again.
He would come to my house asking for help or just needed someone to
talk to. He's sponsor was a doctor, also. We all tried to help him.
He relaped, over and over again.
He came to my house oneday, we shot some basket ball.
He looked sick, I didn't know whatesle to tell him.
He knew recovery was important to me...he knew i cared.
A week later he was dead becuase he liver gave out.
maybe he didn't get it , or maybe he did...
Why would person drink to the death ?
Disease or not...i know it kills.
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sugah, et al;
that was really interesting - (i usually post on friends and families boards hope it's ok to enlighten myself here as well) - but how could you be physically dependant (which i am assuming to mean you use it on a consistent basis and therefore your body grows to depend on it) and not be an addict?
i really do appreciate your thoughts on that...
s
that was really interesting - (i usually post on friends and families boards hope it's ok to enlighten myself here as well) - but how could you be physically dependant (which i am assuming to mean you use it on a consistent basis and therefore your body grows to depend on it) and not be an addict?
i really do appreciate your thoughts on that...
s
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Disease or evil spell or malady or personal choice or sin or ?????
What difference does it make?
If you are not able to live with a drinker...action is needed.
And the action is yours.
Blessings to all involved
What difference does it make?
If you are not able to live with a drinker...action is needed.
And the action is yours.
Blessings to all involved
Recovering Nicely
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
1. It's Chronic
2. It's Progressive
3. It's Fatal (if left untreated)
I'm all for the disease aspect of alcoholism here, it's my son who isn't and I want to educate him on this so that he could better understand his A father and what he is going thru. But, with all due respect, my son has two valid points 1) what isn't fatal in excess? Aren't we all going to die sooner or later. I do know and have heard of many alcoholics who are in better health and live alot longer than non-alcoholics, no matter how much abuse they put their bodies thru. Look at my AH, he has alcoholic liver disease, but he's doing just fine and keeps on drinking (no adverse symptoms, etc.); 2) if it isn't a matter of willpower, how do all of you recovering alcoholics remain sober? My AH was sober for over 14 years!!!! He simply chose to enjoy life, hobbies and family and not to drink. Isn't it more willpower than anything?
I am going to buy that book "under the influence" because I want to understand this disease, and that's why I question some of it.
2. It's Progressive
3. It's Fatal (if left untreated)
I'm all for the disease aspect of alcoholism here, it's my son who isn't and I want to educate him on this so that he could better understand his A father and what he is going thru. But, with all due respect, my son has two valid points 1) what isn't fatal in excess? Aren't we all going to die sooner or later. I do know and have heard of many alcoholics who are in better health and live alot longer than non-alcoholics, no matter how much abuse they put their bodies thru. Look at my AH, he has alcoholic liver disease, but he's doing just fine and keeps on drinking (no adverse symptoms, etc.); 2) if it isn't a matter of willpower, how do all of you recovering alcoholics remain sober? My AH was sober for over 14 years!!!! He simply chose to enjoy life, hobbies and family and not to drink. Isn't it more willpower than anything?
I am going to buy that book "under the influence" because I want to understand this disease, and that's why I question some of it.
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
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Isn't it more willpower than anything?
There is a solution. Almost none of us liked the self- searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation. But we saw that it really worked in others, and we had come to believe in the hopelessness and futility of life as we had been living it. When, therefore, we were approached by those in whom the problem had been solved, there was nothing left for us but to pick up the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at out feet. We have found much of heaven and we have been rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed.
The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences* which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves.
If you are as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no middle-of-the-road solution. We were in a position where life was becoming impossible, and if we had passed into the region from which there is no return through human aid, we had but two alternatives: One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept spiritual help. This we did because we honestly wanted to, and were willing to make the effort.
The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences* which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves.
If you are as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no middle-of-the-road solution. We were in a position where life was becoming impossible, and if we had passed into the region from which there is no return through human aid, we had but two alternatives: One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept spiritual help. This we did because we honestly wanted to, and were willing to make the effort.
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Though I'm fully behind CarolD's last post, I also understand that need to understand. As a college student, I'm motivated to take classes more for that reason than that they fulfill a requirement. I suppose in the interest of graduating, I should readjust, but.... 
It's hard to talk about physical dependence/addiction versus the disease of addiction on an alcohol board, as alcohol effects most people in a physically different way than, say, opiates. If my 81-yr old mother takes percocet or vicadin for six weeks recovering from an injury (and she has), she's going to have physical withdrawals when she stops them because her body has become accustomed to having them regularly. During that six weeks, she might not even take them every day, or as many doses as she's prescribed every day. She certainly isn't going to start sneaking extra doses because they're no longer "doing it for her." If they don't work, she'll tell her doctor, and they'll work through it. She's not prone to self-medication. Yet, when she stops, she's going to feel achy for a couple of days. She might have diarrhea and chills. My mother will more than likely pass it off as a "bug," and when it's over, she'll go about her business, not thinking anymore about the pills.
One of the strange things I found on alcohol recovery boards when I started coming around was that rarely did I read anything about hangovers. I read a lot about "alcohol withdrawals," which interestingly have the same sort of symptoms I had with a bad hangover. So, I assume that we're talking about one and the same. I know lots of folks who suffer from hangovers who aren't alcoholic. Perhaps they overdid it the night before. Or cultures where drinking is part of everyday living...wine served with every meal from a very young age. After years and years of that, if someone had to abstain from the practice for health reasons, they'd probably have some symptoms of withdrawal -- much like I do when I miss my morning coffee. But if I wake up in the morning and I'm out of coffee, I won't brave a storm to go get some. I remember walking two miles to a six-pack shop when the roads out of my community were closed due to a snow storm.
I'm an English major. I love words, and anyone who reads enough of my posts knows why I have to study my own language. I butcher it enough! The one thing I've learned about words is that we have to agree on their meaning to understand each other. When you say "addiction," you're perhaps talking about the physical dependence upon a substance. When I say "addiction," I might mean the same thing...to a point. But I'm also talking about that compulsion that addicts have to continue feeding the body the substance or substances, regardless of the consequences. I'm talking about what happens once the physical dependence is broken that causes addicts to go back down that road, risk physical dependence again because there's something on a level of being that effectively blocks out the self-knowledge one might have of his or her own condition.
I don't know if I answered the question. I know that it's a beautiful day, that my lilacs look like they're going to bloom for the first time in years and the goldfinches have already found the thistle I put out for them less than two hours ago. The peacocks next door are raising a ruckus, so I suppose it won't be long before there's a new crop of hatchlings following one of the hens around. The level of peace I feel right now would not be possible if I merely recovered from my physical dependence on a substance. But, that's a topic for another thread.
Have a wonderful day!
Peace & Love,
Sugah
It's hard to talk about physical dependence/addiction versus the disease of addiction on an alcohol board, as alcohol effects most people in a physically different way than, say, opiates. If my 81-yr old mother takes percocet or vicadin for six weeks recovering from an injury (and she has), she's going to have physical withdrawals when she stops them because her body has become accustomed to having them regularly. During that six weeks, she might not even take them every day, or as many doses as she's prescribed every day. She certainly isn't going to start sneaking extra doses because they're no longer "doing it for her." If they don't work, she'll tell her doctor, and they'll work through it. She's not prone to self-medication. Yet, when she stops, she's going to feel achy for a couple of days. She might have diarrhea and chills. My mother will more than likely pass it off as a "bug," and when it's over, she'll go about her business, not thinking anymore about the pills.
One of the strange things I found on alcohol recovery boards when I started coming around was that rarely did I read anything about hangovers. I read a lot about "alcohol withdrawals," which interestingly have the same sort of symptoms I had with a bad hangover. So, I assume that we're talking about one and the same. I know lots of folks who suffer from hangovers who aren't alcoholic. Perhaps they overdid it the night before. Or cultures where drinking is part of everyday living...wine served with every meal from a very young age. After years and years of that, if someone had to abstain from the practice for health reasons, they'd probably have some symptoms of withdrawal -- much like I do when I miss my morning coffee. But if I wake up in the morning and I'm out of coffee, I won't brave a storm to go get some. I remember walking two miles to a six-pack shop when the roads out of my community were closed due to a snow storm.
I'm an English major. I love words, and anyone who reads enough of my posts knows why I have to study my own language. I butcher it enough! The one thing I've learned about words is that we have to agree on their meaning to understand each other. When you say "addiction," you're perhaps talking about the physical dependence upon a substance. When I say "addiction," I might mean the same thing...to a point. But I'm also talking about that compulsion that addicts have to continue feeding the body the substance or substances, regardless of the consequences. I'm talking about what happens once the physical dependence is broken that causes addicts to go back down that road, risk physical dependence again because there's something on a level of being that effectively blocks out the self-knowledge one might have of his or her own condition.
I don't know if I answered the question. I know that it's a beautiful day, that my lilacs look like they're going to bloom for the first time in years and the goldfinches have already found the thistle I put out for them less than two hours ago. The peacocks next door are raising a ruckus, so I suppose it won't be long before there's a new crop of hatchlings following one of the hens around. The level of peace I feel right now would not be possible if I merely recovered from my physical dependence on a substance. But, that's a topic for another thread.
Have a wonderful day!
Peace & Love,
Sugah
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My friend,
did I read this correctly:
"Look at my AH, he has alcoholic liver disease, but he's doing just fine and keeps on drinking (no adverse symptoms, etc.);"
????
Isnt having alcoholic liver disease an "adverse symptom"?
Isnt't the fact that his mental state is driving you to distraction an "adverse symptom"?
Isn't the fact that he progressed so rapidly to this state after 14 years of sobriety enough proof that it progresses, even when no alcohol is taken?
did I read this correctly:
"Look at my AH, he has alcoholic liver disease, but he's doing just fine and keeps on drinking (no adverse symptoms, etc.);"
????
Isnt having alcoholic liver disease an "adverse symptom"?
Isnt't the fact that his mental state is driving you to distraction an "adverse symptom"?
Isn't the fact that he progressed so rapidly to this state after 14 years of sobriety enough proof that it progresses, even when no alcohol is taken?
Recovering Nicely
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 935
Isnt having alcoholic liver disease an "adverse symptom"?
Isnt't the fact that his mental state is driving you to distraction an "adverse symptom"?
Isn't the fact that he progressed so rapidly to this state after 14 years of sobriety enough proof that it progresses, even when no alcohol is taken
MissCommunicat - having alcoholic liver disease yet continuing to drink heavily with no ill effects on his body (his liver has not shut down yet, nor will it probably) is not an adverse symptom. What I meant by adverse symptoms is it is not threatening his life at that time, nor will it ever probably.
His mental state is driving ME crazy, not HIM! To me that means he is not having any adverse symptoms - I am!
The fact that he's progressed so rapidly does indeed show that it is progressive, but I seem to doubt that it will end in death (meaning, he will die at like 75, when most people start to die anyway and it won't be from alcoholism cause his body is handling it just fine).
I do thank you for your opinions though. It really means alot to me. As I said, I want to understand this disease as best as I can, even though I guess I am really frustrated right now.
But while we are on the subject - his new thing (yesterday and today) when faced with the possibility of me leaving him or he has to stop drinking, he keeps saying he should just kill himself. I told him he loves himself and drinking too much to do that and just continue to drink and let me go on my merry way.
Isnt't the fact that his mental state is driving you to distraction an "adverse symptom"?
Isn't the fact that he progressed so rapidly to this state after 14 years of sobriety enough proof that it progresses, even when no alcohol is taken
MissCommunicat - having alcoholic liver disease yet continuing to drink heavily with no ill effects on his body (his liver has not shut down yet, nor will it probably) is not an adverse symptom. What I meant by adverse symptoms is it is not threatening his life at that time, nor will it ever probably.
His mental state is driving ME crazy, not HIM! To me that means he is not having any adverse symptoms - I am!
The fact that he's progressed so rapidly does indeed show that it is progressive, but I seem to doubt that it will end in death (meaning, he will die at like 75, when most people start to die anyway and it won't be from alcoholism cause his body is handling it just fine).
I do thank you for your opinions though. It really means alot to me. As I said, I want to understand this disease as best as I can, even though I guess I am really frustrated right now.
But while we are on the subject - his new thing (yesterday and today) when faced with the possibility of me leaving him or he has to stop drinking, he keeps saying he should just kill himself. I told him he loves himself and drinking too much to do that and just continue to drink and let me go on my merry way.
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I have long since resigned from the debating team as far as the "Disease or not" issue is concerned.
Even the medical community seems divided on this issue and I find that it can be very difficult to prove one way or the other, or even to change another persons opinion once they've made up their mind.
Even the medical community seems divided on this issue and I find that it can be very difficult to prove one way or the other, or even to change another persons opinion once they've made up their mind.
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(((queenteree))))
thank you for explaining that to me.
in all due respect, i think we define quality of life, markers of health, and symptoms of adversity differently, but I applaud you for asking good questions.
remain open, and more will be revealed~~
best to you
thank you for explaining that to me.
in all due respect, i think we define quality of life, markers of health, and symptoms of adversity differently, but I applaud you for asking good questions.
remain open, and more will be revealed~~
best to you
Last edited by miss communicat; 05-09-2007 at 11:28 AM. Reason: unfinished
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Lord I wish this one guy who used to be obn here was still around.... he had his liver enzymes checked about a year before he got really sick, everything came back normal so being the good alcohoplic he was he kept on drinking thinking I am super man! Well he gets real sick like I said, he went back to the doctor and was diagnosed with advanced cirrosis of the liver, if I recall correctly he was in his mid 40's.
queenetree please get "Under the Influence" & "Beyond the Influence". If I did not know better I would swear you have the same state of denial about the harm alcohol is doing to your husbands body as an alcoholic does. If he has liver disease right now and he is a binge drinker, his next binge could very well be the one that kills him. The autopsy may come back with the cause as "Heart attack", kidney failure, or any number of things, the vast majority of autopsies done on alcoholics the person doing the autopsy will list what killed the person, but not what caused it.
With liver disease he is very likely to die of alcohol poisoning, not uncommon when the liver is already ill and suddenly it is asked to deal with huge volumes of alcohol in a very short amount of time.
Please do not be offended about what I said about you being in denial, I am saying it to you in love.
queenetree please get "Under the Influence" & "Beyond the Influence". If I did not know better I would swear you have the same state of denial about the harm alcohol is doing to your husbands body as an alcoholic does. If he has liver disease right now and he is a binge drinker, his next binge could very well be the one that kills him. The autopsy may come back with the cause as "Heart attack", kidney failure, or any number of things, the vast majority of autopsies done on alcoholics the person doing the autopsy will list what killed the person, but not what caused it.
With liver disease he is very likely to die of alcohol poisoning, not uncommon when the liver is already ill and suddenly it is asked to deal with huge volumes of alcohol in a very short amount of time.
Please do not be offended about what I said about you being in denial, I am saying it to you in love.
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