AA has a lot of value, and I am engaged, but I also struggle with the Dogma
Grateful
Join Date: May 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 1,763
One piece of advice my sponsor gave me whenever I went to him with an issue I had with something that happened at a meeting was to "separate the signal from the noise". The signal being the program/12 steps and the noise being the personalities within the fellowship. When you consider that the membership of AA is primarily a bunch of sobered up drunks it's actually pretty amazing how successful the program has been for all these years. 
Sobriety is Traditional
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Orcas Island, Washington
Posts: 9,067
I think the Big Book is a classic, and should not be changed. When I have trouble with the archaic nature of some AA literature, I use NA literature (in particular, I have a copy of their 12 & 12, It Works: How and Why).
I attend meetings with two groups. One has an agnostic meeting weekly, while the other group is called "Back to Basics." I was attending the latter's Big Book study meeting regularly for a while, and endured a group reading of "To The Wives." I don't recall the history of why Bill wrote that chapter. There were times when no one in the meeting could keep a straight face because the writing was so ridiculous. But I feel the Big Book delivers a powerful message in a unique way.
I attend meetings with two groups. One has an agnostic meeting weekly, while the other group is called "Back to Basics." I was attending the latter's Big Book study meeting regularly for a while, and endured a group reading of "To The Wives." I don't recall the history of why Bill wrote that chapter. There were times when no one in the meeting could keep a straight face because the writing was so ridiculous. But I feel the Big Book delivers a powerful message in a unique way.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Coldfusion 
.... I was attending the latter's Big Book study meeting regularly for a while, and endured a group reading of "To The Wives." I don't recall the history of why Bill wrote that chapter.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
Yes, and once you understand the game being played don't participate. And groups which you feel give off a cult-like vibe don't attend.
It's not necessary to drink the kool-aid to stay sober in AA or feel comfortable sharing at a meeting.
As you mentioned most people in AA have a live and let live attitude.
This has been my experience too.
It's not necessary to drink the kool-aid to stay sober in AA or feel comfortable sharing at a meeting.
As you mentioned most people in AA have a live and let live attitude.
This has been my experience too.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Grungehead
One piece of advice my sponsor gave me whenever I went to him with an issue I had with something that happened at a meeting was to "separate the signal from the noise". The signal being the program/12 steps and the noise being the personalities within the fellowship. When you consider that the membership of AA is primarily a bunch of sobered up drunks it's actually pretty amazing how successful the program has been for all these years.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Gottalife
My suggestion would be to try to separate the program from the fellowship. A great way to do that would be to join a serious big book study group and look in depth at the suggested program. You could get through it in a year. My home group is like that. It doesn't appeal to all people, certainly not he drama queens so they tend to stay away which is not a bad thing. We can get on and find out what it is all about.
Interestingly, one of the first thing we discover is that there is no dogma in the program. It is merely a record of experience, what worked and what didn't and rather than telling you what to do it states specifically "We will tell you what we have done". Then later in the chapter about working with others it makes it clear that the new prospect can be given the book and all the available information and from that point it is up to them if they want to go through the process or not. No lectures, no frothy emotional appeals.
Group think is an interesting term. Would that be the same as unity? One of the most inspiring passages in the book goes "We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action" That gave me great hope, though I would have to say that the same statement might not be quite as true today. There seems to be a lot of stuff floating around the fellowship that has nothing to do with the program.
One final point on the stats. Until very recently there have been no AA based statistics. It is not something AA does, but there has been recently published a large body of research that shows AA recovery rate from 22-35%, and non AA methods 15-22%. However it was not clear how they defined an alcoholic and to what level those in AA participated in the program as opposed to just going to meetings.
In my experience, which has been over a reasonable period, the stats in the foreword to the first edition are pretty accurate, even conservative. They refer to those who really tried (worked the steps) as 50 % recovering at once. That is true in my experience. However, many come to AA, never work the steps, and then say AA does not work. I don't know of any medicine that works if you don't take it.
Interestingly, one of the first thing we discover is that there is no dogma in the program. It is merely a record of experience, what worked and what didn't and rather than telling you what to do it states specifically "We will tell you what we have done". Then later in the chapter about working with others it makes it clear that the new prospect can be given the book and all the available information and from that point it is up to them if they want to go through the process or not. No lectures, no frothy emotional appeals.
Group think is an interesting term. Would that be the same as unity? One of the most inspiring passages in the book goes "We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action" That gave me great hope, though I would have to say that the same statement might not be quite as true today. There seems to be a lot of stuff floating around the fellowship that has nothing to do with the program.
One final point on the stats. Until very recently there have been no AA based statistics. It is not something AA does, but there has been recently published a large body of research that shows AA recovery rate from 22-35%, and non AA methods 15-22%. However it was not clear how they defined an alcoholic and to what level those in AA participated in the program as opposed to just going to meetings.
In my experience, which has been over a reasonable period, the stats in the foreword to the first edition are pretty accurate, even conservative. They refer to those who really tried (worked the steps) as 50 % recovering at once. That is true in my experience. However, many come to AA, never work the steps, and then say AA does not work. I don't know of any medicine that works if you don't take it.
Regarding group think, I think it's when people can't think for themselves, and don't like others doing so either. There is group think in all kinds of groups or ideologies. It's a human thing not necessarily AA.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/groupthink
"Groupthink occurs when a group of well-intentioned people make irrational or non-optimal decisions spurred by the urge to conform or the discouragement of dissent. This problematic or premature consensus may be fueled by a particular agenda or simply because group members value harmony and coherence above rational thinking.
In a groupthink situation, group members refrain from expressing doubts and judgments or disagreeing with the consensus. In the interest of making a decision that furthers their group cause, members may ignore any ethical or moral consequences.
Risky or disastrous military maneuvers, such as the escalation of the Vietnam War or the invasion of Iraq, are commonly cited as instances of groupthink. But while it is often invoked at the level of geopolitics, groupthink can also refer to subtle processes of social or ideological conformity. "
Regarding the statistics, those I've seen cited range from 5% (which is the background spontaneous recovery rate for alcoholics including on their own) to a little higher. I've never seen studies getting close to the Big Book stats. I'm aware that it's hard to track due to historic court ordered attendance, anonymity, difficulty in tracking individuals and their success, etc. And, as you mentioned, some people show up one or twice, or for a while, but don't do anything beyond that (working the steps, etc).
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Funki
...Regarding the statistics, those I've seen cited range from 5% (which is the background spontaneous recovery rate for alcoholics including on their own) to a little higher. I've never seen studies getting close to the Big Book stats. I'm aware that it's hard to track due to historic court ordered attendance, anonymity, difficulty in tracking individuals and their success, etc. And, as you mentioned, some people show up one or twice, or for a while, but don't do anything beyond that (working the steps, etc).
The only stat of importance which can be verified is your own sobriety.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Funki
... Regarding group think, I think it's when people can't think for themselves, and don't like others doing so either. There is group think in all kinds of groups or ideologies. It's a human thing not necessarily AA.
I don't necessarily mind if others do so (group-think) be it in AA, a church or a political gathering. I might find it weird people who parrot each other but that's their business. The problem I have is when people try to push their views on me.
If I politely say no... I mean no. If the other person can't accept this tough tough nails.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 513
Maybe someday we will no longer need our drugs of connection, nor will they mystify us. We will give ourselves permission to connect, to love, and be more tolerant and understanding when we fail to do so.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
The only stat of importance which can be verified is your own sobriety.
And what works for myself or another person is the only stat that matters at the end of the day.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
I don't necessarily mind if others do so (group-think) be it in AA, a church or a political gathering. I might find it weird people who parrot each other but that's their business. The problem I have is when people try to push their views on me.
If I politely say no... I mean no. If the other person can't accept this tough tough nails.
If I politely say no... I mean no. If the other person can't accept this tough tough nails.
I think there's a big difference between working with new comers or those who ask for help, versus proselytizing AA as the one true way for sobriety or *real recovery*.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by Funki
I agree 100%. I think that something that influences AA to have more of those people though is that the twelfth step requires working with others and carrying the message. Many interpret this to mean they need to be hardcore thumpers with everyone, and also counteract any messages not in line with their views. Just last week as I said someone said in a group to a non-stepper who said they were successful, "you shouldn't say that it's misinformation and you will kill alcoholics that way." So there is a proselytism in AA taught to members, and a pressing need perceived (helping alcoholics or staying sober oneself) that increases these behaviors.
I think there's a big difference between working with new comers or those who ask for help, versus proselytizing AA as the one true way for sobriety or *real recovery*.
I think there's a big difference between working with new comers or those who ask for help, versus proselytizing AA as the one true way for sobriety or *real recovery*.
When someone comes into the rooms for the first time it is important they hear the message of AA which is the 12 step. However, common sense dictates that not everyone is the same. This is where the attraction and not promotion part of AA comes into play.
The members I gravitated towards when new were those perceptive enough to understand the hard sell wouldn't work.
I've always found it odd those who feel they hold a moral high ground regarding sobriety. In over 27 years of attending AA meetings I have never told a newcomer not to attend a certain meeting or to avoid certain members.
But there are members who do this and while they might they they're helping the newcomer my feeling is they're not.
The same with insisting an upbeat and positive spin is put on all shares during a meeting. It's not hard to understand why some esp. those who are new simply regurgitate what others share. They are afraid to say what is actually on their mind. Then at some point they tell themselves this is all a bunch of b.s. and don't come back.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
“Â What made you decide you needed that program with several years sober, and what has your experience been? If you don't mind me asking?”
i needed that program because i was stuck. stuck in a sobriety that never felt threatened as far as drinking, but that somehow had no growth in it, no change in me, and i felt such...hm...quiet desperation.Â
i had never thought that life would be roses if i could just quit drinking, but i had been sure that i would be a different person if only the drinking were out of my life. it turned out not to be so. i started to grasp the concept of ‘spiritual malady’, something i had never ever thought applied to me or any drinker, actually. and then i slowly saw i was in it.
 in other words: much like you will hear some people here say: drinking was not my real problem but my solution, and once i quit drinking, i found myself ultimately bereft of a solution.
that is the short version:-)
my experience of meetings and groups has been pretty similar to yours. so i concentrated on having a service position and just sharing authentically and shortly, getting a sponsor and doing the work “by the book”, getting involved in volunteering on the intergroup phones, which i still do occasionally, and applying “the program” day to day, but don’t attend meetings anymore.
i needed that program because i was stuck. stuck in a sobriety that never felt threatened as far as drinking, but that somehow had no growth in it, no change in me, and i felt such...hm...quiet desperation.Â
i had never thought that life would be roses if i could just quit drinking, but i had been sure that i would be a different person if only the drinking were out of my life. it turned out not to be so. i started to grasp the concept of ‘spiritual malady’, something i had never ever thought applied to me or any drinker, actually. and then i slowly saw i was in it.
 in other words: much like you will hear some people here say: drinking was not my real problem but my solution, and once i quit drinking, i found myself ultimately bereft of a solution.
that is the short version:-)
my experience of meetings and groups has been pretty similar to yours. so i concentrated on having a service position and just sharing authentically and shortly, getting a sponsor and doing the work “by the book”, getting involved in volunteering on the intergroup phones, which i still do occasionally, and applying “the program” day to day, but don’t attend meetings anymore.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Funki, i should add that all throughout these years i have had daily involvement on online forum like this one, and at the beginning also attended a weekly Lifering meeting and later co-started another.
just mentioning that for the record, as peer support and community definitely were and are a part of my story.
just mentioning that for the record, as peer support and community definitely were and are a part of my story.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by fini
“Â What made you decide you needed that program with several years sober, and what has your experience been? If you don't mind me asking?”
i needed that program because i was stuck. stuck in a sobriety that never felt threatened as far as drinking, but that somehow had no growth in it, no change in me, and i felt such...hm...quiet desperation.Â
i had never thought that life would be roses if i could just quit drinking, but i had been sure that i would be a different person if only the drinking were out of my life. it turned out not to be so. i started to grasp the concept of ‘spiritual malady’, something i had never ever thought applied to me or any drinker, actually. and then i slowly saw i was in it.
 in other words: much like you will hear some people here say: drinking was not my real problem but my solution, and once i quit drinking, i found myself ultimately bereft of a solution.
that is the short version:-)
my experience of meetings and groups has been pretty similar to yours. so i concentrated on having a service position and just sharing authentically and shortly, getting a sponsor and doing the work “by the book”, getting involved in volunteering on the intergroup phones, which i still do occasionally, and applying “the program” day to day, but don’t attend meetings anymore.
i needed that program because i was stuck. stuck in a sobriety that never felt threatened as far as drinking, but that somehow had no growth in it, no change in me, and i felt such...hm...quiet desperation.Â
i had never thought that life would be roses if i could just quit drinking, but i had been sure that i would be a different person if only the drinking were out of my life. it turned out not to be so. i started to grasp the concept of ‘spiritual malady’, something i had never ever thought applied to me or any drinker, actually. and then i slowly saw i was in it.
 in other words: much like you will hear some people here say: drinking was not my real problem but my solution, and once i quit drinking, i found myself ultimately bereft of a solution.
that is the short version:-)
my experience of meetings and groups has been pretty similar to yours. so i concentrated on having a service position and just sharing authentically and shortly, getting a sponsor and doing the work “by the book”, getting involved in volunteering on the intergroup phones, which i still do occasionally, and applying “the program” day to day, but don’t attend meetings anymore.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by fini
Funki, i should add that all throughout these years i have had daily involvement on online forum like this one, and at the beginning also attended a weekly Lifering meeting and later co-started another.
just mentioning that for the record, as peer support and community definitely were and are a part of my story.
just mentioning that for the record, as peer support and community definitely were and are a part of my story.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bellingham
Posts: 513
Good lord, wrote this whole long thing again.
I guess in a nutshell, what I'd like to say is that there should be more room for critical thought in AA and that you sound like you are following your own inner light, which is good. The BB isn't a gospel. It was wrote by some guy, himself involved in a religion. Nor do I think religion is necessarily bad. It's kind of like an embarkation into the unexplained, following a chain of intuition regarding human behavior.
I think though that it can get calcified. Much of the storytelling imbued in AA is there to mask the common ignorance of the complex factor that is addiction. To explain it. Deconstructing that with science and theory is an act of creating finder detail, greater simplicity.
I guess in a nutshell, what I'd like to say is that there should be more room for critical thought in AA and that you sound like you are following your own inner light, which is good. The BB isn't a gospel. It was wrote by some guy, himself involved in a religion. Nor do I think religion is necessarily bad. It's kind of like an embarkation into the unexplained, following a chain of intuition regarding human behavior.
I think though that it can get calcified. Much of the storytelling imbued in AA is there to mask the common ignorance of the complex factor that is addiction. To explain it. Deconstructing that with science and theory is an act of creating finder detail, greater simplicity.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Ken33xx
When someone comes into the rooms for the first time it is important they hear the message of AA which is the 12 step. However, common sense dictates that not everyone is the same. This is where the attraction and not promotion part of AA comes into play.
The members I gravitated towards when new were those perceptive enough to understand the hard sell wouldn't work.
I've always found it odd those who feel they hold a moral high ground regarding sobriety. In over 27 years of attending AA meetings I have never told a newcomer not to attend a certain meeting or to avoid certain members.
But there are members who do this and while they might they they're helping the newcomer my feeling is they're not.
The same with insisting an upbeat and positive spin is put on all shares during a meeting. It's not hard to understand why some esp. those who are new simply regurgitate what others share. They are afraid to say what is actually on their mind. Then at some point they tell themselves this is all a bunch of b.s. and don't come back.
The members I gravitated towards when new were those perceptive enough to understand the hard sell wouldn't work.
I've always found it odd those who feel they hold a moral high ground regarding sobriety. In over 27 years of attending AA meetings I have never told a newcomer not to attend a certain meeting or to avoid certain members.
But there are members who do this and while they might they they're helping the newcomer my feeling is they're not.
The same with insisting an upbeat and positive spin is put on all shares during a meeting. It's not hard to understand why some esp. those who are new simply regurgitate what others share. They are afraid to say what is actually on their mind. Then at some point they tell themselves this is all a bunch of b.s. and don't come back.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by davaidavai
Good lord, wrote this whole long thing again.
I guess in a nutshell, what I'd like to say is that there should be more room for critical thought in AA and that you sound like you are following your own inner light, which is good. The BB isn't a gospel. It was wrote by some guy, himself involved in a religion. Nor do I think religion is necessarily bad. It's kind of like an embarkation into the unexplained, following a chain of intuition regarding human behavior.
I think though that it can get calcified. Much of the storytelling imbued in AA is there to mask the common ignorance of the complex factor that is addiction. To explain it. Deconstructing that with science and theory is an act of creating finder detail, greater simplicity.
I guess in a nutshell, what I'd like to say is that there should be more room for critical thought in AA and that you sound like you are following your own inner light, which is good. The BB isn't a gospel. It was wrote by some guy, himself involved in a religion. Nor do I think religion is necessarily bad. It's kind of like an embarkation into the unexplained, following a chain of intuition regarding human behavior.
I think though that it can get calcified. Much of the storytelling imbued in AA is there to mask the common ignorance of the complex factor that is addiction. To explain it. Deconstructing that with science and theory is an act of creating finder detail, greater simplicity.
But as you say, too often the program is a one size fits all, in assumption for all people, and in approach and suggestions. Not every individual has the same defects, needs, history, issues, etc.
I'm fairly intuitive, and can read people well, so with sponsors I think I've been pretty blessed to choose a few over the years who were pretty balanced and not extremists. But, this goes back to the suggestion in AA to just choose any old sponsor out of desperation. I think not. It doesn't matter if I'm new, I don't want nor need bad or mentally/spiritually sick mentorship. Even therapists who are ostensibly professionally trained/licensed and rated often, can be bad. People say to be careful about choosing good ones of those as well.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by davaidavai
Good lord, wrote this whole long thing again.
I guess in a nutshell, what I'd like to say is that there should be more room for critical thought in AA and that you sound like you are following your own inner light, which is good. The BB isn't a gospel. It was wrote by some guy, himself involved in a religion. Nor do I think religion is necessarily bad. It's kind of like an embarkation into the unexplained, following a chain of intuition regarding human behavior.
I think though that it can get calcified. Much of the storytelling imbued in AA is there to mask the common ignorance of the complex factor that is addiction. To explain it. Deconstructing that with science and theory is an act of creating finder detail, greater simplicity.
I guess in a nutshell, what I'd like to say is that there should be more room for critical thought in AA and that you sound like you are following your own inner light, which is good. The BB isn't a gospel. It was wrote by some guy, himself involved in a religion. Nor do I think religion is necessarily bad. It's kind of like an embarkation into the unexplained, following a chain of intuition regarding human behavior.
I think though that it can get calcified. Much of the storytelling imbued in AA is there to mask the common ignorance of the complex factor that is addiction. To explain it. Deconstructing that with science and theory is an act of creating finder detail, greater simplicity.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
