Funki

Hi folks,

I hope everyone is having a wonderful sober Saturday. I wanted to post and honest thread for open minded discussion.

A little bit about me. I just got 90 days on the May 3rd, so I'm a bit of a newbie again. I had about 5 years ago in AA in the past, worked the steps, etc. I went back out for a while, and drank very heavily the last year or two before I came back in the rooms, but especially the last year.

I'm back in the fellowship. Right now I'm on step 4 with my sponsor, and about half way through. I'm attending most weeks online meetings anywhere from 5-9 times per week (I attended in-person before the shut down).

First, I'd like to say that I really value the fellowship and community of AA, and it's the most pervasive and largest recovery group. For me, this is probably the greatest plus of AA. Also, I value the structure of the steps, the work with a sponsor, reflection and amends, and spirituality. I'm a spiritual person. For me it is very helpful to have this community to check-in with and get support. Staying sober in our world isn't easy.

However, something I've always struggled with is the dogmatic nature of the group too. For example, while the Big Book says that AA has a lot to learn and isn't the only game in town (written in the early days of addiction treatment), many groups and members treat the BB as a veritable bible. Also, many elements in the BB such as the Doctor's Opinion or statistics on recovery don't match up with both modern research in the medical community in the former or known stats on the efficacy of AA in the latter case. There is a wide range of views in the addiction medicine community on the nature of alcoholism, and Dr. Silkworth's opinion shouldn't be enshrined as some unchanging truth just because it was recorded back then by AA. I think that AA would really be more attractive (attraction not promotion) if it was more open to current research, stats, and science. There often seems to be an anti attitude to such developments.

Frequently members will assert that the only way to stay sober is through the twelve steps and if you don't, you are "dry" at best. This week I saw a discussion where someone was saying they got sober and were doing well without the steps and a member said "you are going to kill alcoholics with that misinformation." It just isn't true across the world and history that AA is the only way. Also, as an intellectual and critical thinker at heart (which has helped me greatly in academic and professional work), I naturally research, question, and think rationally. That has it's limits, without a doubt, but I don't do well with dogmatic ideas or group-think. Often in AA any criticism however valid is met with "sounds like you want to relapse" or "that's just your disease." There really isn't room for real discussion excepting some open minded members in private conversations.

I don't know really what to do with this all. I about 80% of the time just let it go, but it doesn't always work for me internally. For now I've committed to doing AA for a year, and then figuring out my recovery from there, potentially staying involved potentially not.

I'm open to feedback and thoughts, just please no attacks or slogans.

fini

Funki,
i didn’t get to AA until several years sober. in those sober years, i kinda sorta worked my way towards AA, and had the discussions i wanted to have and felt i needed to have before i got there.
what i’mmsaying is: i know there is no “discussion” about the program, and no change will be forthcoming in that program itself.Â
and that is fine. AA has one thing to offer as its solution to alcoholism, and that is a spiritual solution laid out in following/implementing the steps. what people say or do in meetings, or in private conversation, is outside the scope of AA.
when i decided the program was what i needed, i knew i needed THAT program. with trepidations but no reservations.
my suggestion about this stuff is about desperation and willingness: if you know or believe this particular way of cleaning up the past and living differently going forward is for you, then committ to doing that very program as those steps are actually very simple. all the discussing and disagreements are opinions swirling around, extraneous in a way.Â
oops...i think i might be babbling now and it might be useless to you. but i will leave it. ignore it if it doesn’t apply, or feel free to discuss or argue. seriously:-)Â

Funki

Thanks for the reply. I understand and respect that approach. In fact, I have zero issue with those deciding they want to work the program, and accept it as is. I basically am doing that now.

What made you decide you needed that program with several years sober, and what has your experience been? If you don't mind me asking?

I suppose you are right that if there is value for me there, I can just do as I'm doing and take what I need from it. That's what my plan is for the time being. However, I think community matters, the vibe, quality of conversation and relationships, etc. It's like how I often see people say something like, "Don't judge Christianity by how Christians or people in church act, but by the Bible and Jesus." There can be an element of truth to that, but also how a community IS and acts in reality matters, greatly, for any group, if one wants to be involved in that community. I don't want to have to be silent and not my full self just so I can fit in, or not be attacked.

TiredCarpenter

Funki: thanks.
I share many of the same thoughts.


AA has been the sobriety beacon for millions of people.

I sobered up in AA about 26 and a half years ago. I was sober for 20 and 1/3 years then relapsed.


I now realize, having been through a treatment center, (they post all the various supports on the wall, also discuss them in group) that there a SO MANY caring, sincere people in many roles, offering support to sufferers of addiction.


I learned thatAA is not the only way.



I was once a staunch AAer. I can still recite the entire “How it Works� without a book. From “Rarely have we seen “ right to “could and would if He were sought.�


I guess once you relapse the shine and the mystical magic of the steps working in your life looses some lustre. It is so tough, I have found for a lapsed long timer to rediscover the magic.


Some parts.... the family afterward ...... to the wife’s.......because it was written in the 30s/40s are antiquated and, dare I say misogynistic. Really good meat and potatoes for a sufferer, though.

I got royally hosed by the guy (a supposed man of the cloth, ordained) that received my latest step 5. In my opinion step 5 replicate the book of James in the bible. “confess your sins to one another and pray for each other, that you may be healed “

This guy did not pray for me re: my sins. Instead phoned the police. After 23 years of no police in my life my white-faced wife came down the stairs to say hey, the police are here for you. (About 2 weeks after step 5). I have so many choice names in mind for this guy.

His actions nearly killed me, I spiralled and spiralled and....
I have become resentful toward AA because of this guy.

I have still sat 2 chairs down from him at a meeting. Principles before personalities.
Rambling.....
What was the question again.....just kidding.

Peace and love to you..

Ken33xx

I often hear how AA is a microcosm of society, but I have found this is not necessarily true. AA is a very insular society with its own language and culture that bears little resemblance to the larger community.The key in AA is finding a path you feel comfortable on and learning to get along with others. You do not have to agree with everyone and not everyone has to agree with you. So, if you decide to take what you need and leave the rest that certainly is a viable option.

TiredCarpenter

AA really knows the alcoholic.

Page 21 where they describe the Jekyll and Hyde..... he is normal and balanced in his everyday life, but let him drink for a day and he becomes dangerously anti-social. you would think he would quit for her.... etc.... The word HE is used here probably 12 times or more. The writing is so apt, I have often said they could put my first name in place of HE.

Certainly can not knock AA, other than to agree that perhaps some modernizing would be helpful.
They say.....we are quick to see where people of medicine (science) and religion are right.....hopefully the staunch members can become more open to the modern way of things.


Be well.

nez

Small disclaimer to start: I am not a fan nor supporter of dogma.

Why do you struggle with dogma? What is important enough about dogma that it creates a struggle within you?

I have freedom of choice and because I worked long and hard on recovery, I am very selective today on what I choose to be allowed to impact me. I was a slave to alcohol for years. I refuse to allow opinions, whether they be dogma or it's antonym heterdoxy, to once again put me in shackles. I have the mindset that while everyone is entitled to their opinions, they also need to be ready to accept ownership of the results those opinions yield. I repeat that phrase to myself often except I substitute "I am" for "everyone is" and "my" for "their" and "i" for "they".

Dogma is an accusation that my ego creates in order to sway my thinking to be more inline with it's agenda.

TiredCarpenter

If you are able to wholeheartedly.....drink the kool-aid.... then AA can be awesome for you.

You will have a community, many supports, friends, and a program that does work.

If it is not a fit for you, you are not doomed, there are many supports for us.

Funki

Right, I think that this is probably the healthiest approach in taking the good from it. I agree that AA isn't necessarily a pure microcosm, although some of that diversity of society is there, good and bad.

One thing that I learned from growing older though to that point is that there are dogmatic people, group think, problematic people, in most serious or intentional communities (from religious to political). When I was younger I may have thought only certain groups suffered from this.

To that end, AA is not unique.

Funki

There are several levels to this.

1) Because I was raised in a very evangelical home and church, I think that in my process of disentangling myself from that worldview in my youth I had to deconstruct a lot of dogma. As a result, I am more sensitive I believe to dogmatic thinking and fundamentalism than many friends of mine. It's a subtle trigger, which I'm well aware of.

2) Dogma and group think, especially where departure from it results in attacks and/or being an outsider, can create an unideal social community to belong to, especially where it is at odds with one's own journey and beliefs. Imagine a gay person in a fundamentalist church/family that believes gay people are sinners, period. That dogma creates an unhealthy environment for that gay person that bridges no discussion. This is a more black and white example, but you get my drift.

I define dogma as beliefs with religiousity that allow no counter data, discussion, updates, etc, and even may have counter data that undermines how accurate it is.

From Merriam Webster:

Definition of dogma
1
a
: something held as an established opinion
especially : a definite authoritative tenet
b
: a code of such tenets
pedagogical dogma
c
: a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2
: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

awuh1

I can relate to much of what you wrote Funki. I need to remind myself that dogma serves some people. I am as tolerant as possible of most of these people, up to the point where they try to force me to accept their views or they try to intimidate me into not expressing mine. That's unacceptable. I then make it plain that will believe and express those beliefs as I see fit.
Prior to AA I relied almost exclusively on rationalism and it served me well, for the most part. That said, it could not keep me sober. I was forced to put aside my beliefs and to examine things I had previously dismissed. I had a profound spiritual experience that changed my outlook on reality itself.
AA is a spiritual program, but its not the only way. The man who helped the man who helped the man who helped Bill Wilson get sober had some interesting things to say about this. https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ng-letter.html
Dr Bobs thoughts also seem appropriate here http://silkworth.net/grapevine/drbob_tolerance.html

Funki

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Wow, I'm sorry to hear about the 5th step gone awry! You know, in the big book it does say that to paraphrase "some of chose this step with a member of a religious body, or a doctor. It is better to take this step with someone who would understand." My thought here is that yes, for a Catholic priest, or a doctor/psychologist, they bound by some kind of rule they can't share your 5th step unless in the case of the latter you are a talking about/planning to harm yourself or others. However, other people are not bound by these proscriptions.

How did you address that with him though? I would think that's a violation of the twelve steps and community.

As far as relapse, yeah, I have more skepticism that hasn't left me since I had about two years of sobriety the first time. Those questions have never left me since, but I still recognize the value of AA. I respect myself enough after these years that feelings and questions that never go away, are important to not suppress. In fact, that's part of my recovery and mental health.

I think my first go around yes I had much more faith in the "Magic" as you put it of the steps. I see people I know talking like that now presently. At the same time, though, I also got almost too spiritual which is a long story (occult, mysticism, enlightenment seeking). I feel like it's healthier for me to have a process for self work, some balanced spirituality, structure, accountability, and sustainability, rather than seek some kind of religious mystical experience from the steps. To that end, i'm okay with there not being a luster.

Also, some on here will say "well, if AA isn't right well why did you relapse then and maybe your thinking is wrong?" To answer and pre-empt that, this would be the equivalent of having gone my first time to a faith-based treatment, or SMART, relapsed, and then received the identical point in quotes. My Mom says that about Christianity. The fact that someone relapses doesn't make AA inherently correct. It could be correct, or not, or partially.

Funki

I agree totally. First, everyone has the right to their beliefs. Just like religious people, however, their rights end at the point they project on others or try to institute those beliefs for others. In AA what I'm referring to is that many groups or individuals definitely attack any non-AA recovery, people that leave, or people that question. This can be directly or passive aggressive shares. Let me clarify that I know that these types realistically are like under 20% of the whole group most likely. Most people are just doing their thing.

Like yourself, I learned there were limits to rationalism, scientific method, you name it. I personally believe there are parts of ourselves and the universe that are difficult to think through or put into words, but may be experienced or seen in some holistic sense. That can be spiritual in some cases.

However, that can both be true and AA be wrong on some of it's spiritual beliefs such as there being some kind of essential alcoholic that only the steps can address. For example, there are Christians who are anti-AA not because it's spiritual, but because they think it is heretical.

Funki

Is there a middle ground? I'd like to think so. Community is important.

I think I'm "constitutionally incapable" of drinking the Kool-Aid in almost any group, as I've learned time and time again. I do try though to see the good things and value, not throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.

nez

I hope this doesn't come across as an attack because that is not my intent. Healthy discussions help me to explore the inner workings of my cranium and it's thought processes. To my original question you gave two instances of where dogma has negatively impacted you, but that only scratches the surface of why. Most of the time when I try to answer similar why questions, my first few answers are somewhat superficial in nature and not what I really need to know in order to effectively initiate change. I can cut weeds in my garden off at ground level, but they always come back to haunt me unless I dig down to the root.

Gottalife

My suggestion would be to try to separate the program from the fellowship. A great way to do that would be to join a serious big book study group and look in depth at the suggested program. You could get through it in a year. My home group is like that. It doesn't appeal to all people, certainly not he drama queens so they tend to stay away which is not a bad thing. We can get on and find out what it is all about.
Interestingly, one of the first thing we discover is that there is no dogma in the program. It is merely a record of experience, what worked and what didn't and rather than telling you what to do it states specifically "We will tell you what we have done". Then later in the chapter about working with others it makes it clear that the new prospect can be given the book and all the available information and from that point it is up to them if they want to go through the process or not. No lectures, no frothy emotional appeals.
Group think is an interesting term. Would that be the same as unity? One of the most inspiring passages in the book goes "We have a way out on which we can absolutely agree, and upon which we can join in brotherly and harmonious action" That gave me great hope, though I would have to say that the same statement might not be quite as true today. There seems to be a lot of stuff floating around the fellowship that has nothing to do with the program.
One final point on the stats. Until very recently there have been no AA based statistics. It is not something AA does, but there has been recently published a large body of research that shows AA recovery rate from 22-35%, and non AA methods 15-22%. However it was not clear how they defined an alcoholic and to what level those in AA participated in the program as opposed to just going to meetings.
In my experience, which has been over a reasonable period, the stats in the foreword to the first edition are pretty accurate, even conservative. They refer to those who really tried (worked the steps) as 50 % recovering at once. That is true in my experience. However, many come to AA, never work the steps, and then say AA does not work. I don't know of any medicine that works if you don't take it.

Obladi

Hi Funk,

I can relate, and how!
The program itself is sound, but Oh, the People!

I've been through many stages in this struggle with dogma:
- resistance. It's wrong, these people are whack. I don't belong.
- irritation. These people don't understand their own program and they're trying to tell me how to do it?
- frustration. I want to get it, I want to belong, but I just don't think like they do.
- confusion. Why don't I fit in? What am I doing wrong? How can I change the way my brain works?
- desperation. I MUST get this.
- acceptance. I'm ok! I'm me and I think how I think and that's alright.
- loneliness, confusion, desperation, willingness.
- acceptance again, hopefully the real bone-deep variety. When I am disturbed by anything outside of myself, there is something inside of myself that needs attention.

I've just arrived at this last place, and imagine it's not actually the final stop. For the moment, I understand that my upset with the dogma is my conviction that these people are "doing it wrong" and imposing their wrongness on me. Which may or not be the case, but why does it matter? As someone said to me elsewhere, I know who I am.

Not sure if that helps you any, but I really wanted to say, "I feel ya!"

Tommyh

I mainly just trust the process,or the steps if you prefer,to keep me sober if I live them,my success rate is 100%
the rest is not too important to me because it`s not my job

biminiblue

I'm a Christian so the Steps make sense to me. I think all the various world religions have similar paths to enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it.

I went to AA meetings for about four months, and I read the Big Book. The program itself is sound. The people in AA are like people in any Christian church or work/social group - ya gotta be careful! Funki, I think you have a handle on it. I came up with this, "Thanks for your input, but you're not my Higher Power."

One of the best things I heard in a meeting? "What people think of me is none of my business." ~ Not Part of the Program.

Ken33xx

Yes, and once you understand the game being played don't participate. And groups which you feel give off a cult-like vibe don't attend.
It's not necessary to drink the kool-aid to stay sober in AA or feel comfortable sharing at a meeting.
As you mentioned most people in AA have a live and let live attitude.
This has been my experience too.