biminiblue

They matter greatly. But in a democratic country and in a group like AA which has no real "rules" other than the rather tongue in cheek Rule 62, what is there to be done about someone who doesn't act the way you, me, fini, nez, Ken or whoever THINK they should act?


Not much can really be done other than speak up when it happens. Then it will either change - or not.


In church and in AA people vote with their feet. In my area there is one clubhouse that is known as the "First Step" group. They don't call themselves that, but the group is mostly made up of newcomers and the meetings tend to be gripe sessions, war stories, and long rambling nonsensical "shares." The before and after meetings are similarly unhealthy (IMO, of course!)

Alternately there is another clubhouse/meeting venue which has tons of great recovery, the meetings are well-moderated, the shares are about the Solution, and sponsorship and service work is heavily encouraged. Everyone gets a meeting Welcome Package and a Big Book and a phone list at the second group. Guess which group has the most members? You might be surprised to hear they both have a large following.


Somethin' for everyone.

davaidavai

That is true.
I myself have moved on to the one TRUE WAY suppressed by Bill Wilson and discovered in the secret vault in the Akron Savings and Loan Bank. Doctor Bob's Ten Rules For Success.
Rule 1: sit up straight stupid!Rule 2: take a bath at least once every three daysRule 3: if rules one and two ain't enough, then yer just plain dumb, see?Rule 4: give your wife some flowers, ladies are suckers for rosesRule 5: Smoke Lucky brand cigarettes. Lucky: the only cigarette toasted for a man's pleasureRule number 5: never return to the Kentucky Derby
...
I find it much simpler

Funki

Probably true, and I've seen that. I'm not sure for myself I need nor want to have some perfect fit for the BB's definition of alcoholism, nor steps. Maybe it fits me maybe it doesn't. Probably it doesn't matter for me in order to take the good from AA.

What matters to me really is I know I can't drink without it eventually taking over or being non-moderate, every time, whether quickly or slowly. I need help and social support. I believe I'm a spiritual being and yes I need that in my life to help fill the hole I was temporarily filling with alcohol. And, it's very helpful to have self-reflection, inventories in balance, make things right with people (amends) as much a possible, try to live justly, help others, etc. Other self work if necessary such as therapy, advanced meditation, education. I'm not sure I need more understanding than this unless it's specific tools or expansions of these same principles.

nez

That is what I am doing. Once again my finger is not raging, it is laughing at irony.

Ken33xx

Very true.
However, there are instances where you don't have a choice. When I got sober there was just one meeting during the evening I could attend. On the weekends there were two per day..
But this was a good experience for me. I learned early on I wasn't going to agree with or even like everyone. And others felt the same. Still, we were respectful of each other (although there were plenty of clashes) and often went out for coffee together after meetings.
Today, there is an AA club house ten minutes by car from my house. First meeting is at 6:00 in the morning and the last at 10 pm at night.
There's another clubhouse maybe twenty minutes away.
Now we have Zoom meetings as well and I suspect they will continue given their popularity.

nez

Sim Sim Salabim

Dee74

I think there's still some hope for a communal understanding here, if not agreement, and that's pretty much the only reason the thread is still going.

Y'all need to quit the sniping though - last warning.

Dee
Administrator
SR

Funki

Sure, and I think that ultimately yes it's a democratic society to a degree. There's a range of meetings and styles.

The thing with voting with our feet with meetings though, is that the central messaging I'm describing I've encountered at 80-90% of AA meetings, and NA too, regardless of meeting type, style, small/big, young/old, you name it. These exact topics and beliefs about sobriety and solution are discussed by virtually every twelve step critic. It's part of the basic belief system in twelve step groups, whether or not that was the original intention of the BB. This is why not a few people vote with their feet and ultimately leave twelve step groups fully, as that's the only voting option available to them in their perception.

fini

you may well be right. i can’t speak to that. i wanted to do the 12step work, and the change that promised.Â
and it is hardly a random text when “To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book.” (quoting foreword to 1st edition).Â

THAT is what i wanted, it is what i went for, it is what i got.

yes, many go for fellowship, mainly. if that had been what i wanted, i would likely have continued with my former Lifering peer support. which is excellent fellowship but not a recovery program.

so let me ask you what matters more to you? what do you hope for in going?

Gottalife

Funki, you sure got a wide ranging discussion going here Lots of responses that match my experience and many that don't. What can I say?


Well, AA is very democratic. Voting with the feet is one option, but rather pointless if it is just a particular group that one disagrees with. How it goes in AA is if there is something about the format or the behavior of members or some other complaint, you first raise it with the group conscience (business meeting). If the group refuses to take action on your concerns, guess what.. You are free to go and start another group that is more to your liking.


All you need is one or two other like minded alcoholics, and you can form an AA group, provided that as a group you have no other affiliation. If your idea is a good one, your group will be well supported. In forty years in AA I have supported the starting a a few new groups, but only ever started one my self about 8 years ago. Always the first consideration should be is there a need for this group.

Another aspect of AA is referring to them or they, when in fact it is us and we. When you join AA, everyone has the same status and that is where it gets a bit difficult to grasp in terms of its operation. Outsiders tend to think in terms of therapy groups with a leader or teacher taking the class, and perhaps the class might also include solutions for multiple issues. Whichever it is, the teacher represents the institution and is thus "they or them".

In an AA meeting, all the students are equally the teachers. We and us share our experience with a single issue, alcoholism, and a single program, Alcoholics Anonymous. We have different levels of experience, we generally all have experience of drinking and life in general, but many will be at different stages in their experience of the program. To a lot of newcomers, much of the basic text concerning recovery is just words because it refers to many things they have not yet experienced.
Each step has some directions to be followed and then some description of past experiences gained by following the directions, sometimes called promises. One has to take the step to be in a position to talk about the experience gained by taking the step. At this point the experience becomes real rather than academic, and those of us that have taken the actions often find we have more in common with both the book and fellow travelers. We like what we found and are happy to share with others how we got it.

Our job, we, us, as a group is to carry this message to the alcoholic that still suffers. or in the case of the person who finds there own way to us, to share what the AA program is.
Another way of looking at it is that the newcomer who calls or comes to AA has an absolute right to hear exactly what is involved in the AA program. It is a moral obligation for one thing. A person who comes to AA for AA should be offered AA. It seems to me that it would be dishonest for a group, claiming to be AA, to offer anything else.

None of us are experts, we all have different life experiences, circumstances and professions. We have only two things in common, our problem, and a fairly simple solution that has worked and continues to work, for us.
The practical difficulties of introducing now ideas are enormous. Who is going to train us, who is going to qualify to be trained, where does the material come from, how do we all agree on what it should be? Would the material transcend different cultures and religious beliefs? Would we be qualified to teach scientific aspects or put into effect different therapies?

Or should we leave that to the professionals and stick with out own proven idea that everyday somewhere in the world recovery begins by one alcoholic talking to another?

davaidavai

<div><br></div><div>One of the things I admire about AA is the incrementalism and the bottom up approach.&nbsp; I think there is a risk in sweeping things aside, and I also think there is a lot of scorn among outsiders toward the program who prefer equally dubious pop psychological schools of thought which also suffer from the sheer lack of reliable statistical information on this topic.&nbsp; Often they are selling something.&nbsp; I think there's also resistance to change, adaptation and growth in the program.&nbsp; The 'for the wives' section comes to mind.&nbsp; Surely this keeps more people away than it helps.&nbsp; If we are bold enough to imply that it may be an allergy, could we perhaps present other more scientific schools of thought, if not in the BB, then in elsewhere?&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I also think AA is a belief system that has a lot in common with world religions, and yet refuses to look at itself that way because one of the core beliefs is that it is 'spiritual' not 'religious.'&nbsp; I think though in light of the practice, the distinction breaks down.&nbsp; &nbsp;So call it a belief system instead.&nbsp; Part of this system is that it has a broad entrance, but as you go along -- as you describe above -- you experience things and are initiated into another experience that is hard to grasp in the beginning over the course of many qualifications.&nbsp; This creates a dichotomy within a kind of conversion experience between those who know and those who have yet to find out.&nbsp; It's a second birth.&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Part of this belief system maintains the broad entrance, but also at the end of the day, doesn't acknowledge that it is a system wherein it is actually very hard to be vocal about your own path, about stuff that doesn't work for you.&nbsp; It feels inappropriate.&nbsp; It's not a sober thing to do.&nbsp; I think it would be possible to create a revisionist AA meeting, but this is not a simple matter, nor have I seen one having attended all kinds of meetings all across NYC.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Funki

Here's the thing, yes, there are "equally dubious" pop schools of thought, or quasi-spiritual or religious alternatives, but there are also evidence/science based approaches that aren't just "pop psychology" and in fact may have more statistical evidence (CBT, Sinclair method, etc).

What I don't think is necessary or what I'm asking is that AA throw out all its ideas of steps. I think the steps are really helpful for structure, reflection, spirituality, making things right, etc. The fellowship and support is helpful.

It's just the categorical idea put forth that it's THE solution, and non-openness to new aforementioned research. When AA members or literature states there aren't further answers, or attacks them, then they are taking a position on outside issues. They are in fact asserting some kind of expertise in evaluating the field of recovery. Moreover, it may be harming recovery as a whole to the degree that the power of AA's influence inhibits other solutions. One thing a lot of people don't realize is how much AA lobbied in the past through powerful partners. This is part of the reason that a majority of rehab centers focus on twelve steps. That's why courts sent people to them before court rulings, etc. So in a certain sense, AA is or was embarking on a bigger advocacy effort than simply doing their own thing in the sphere of recovery.

Funki

I agree with your point here above. See my post right above this one.

Ken33xx

When AA began and for the decades which followed it has been viewed as the leading the authority on how to get sober. But today even the most stanch AA supporters realize for example the doctors opinion is seen by some in the 2020 medical profession as limited/dated.

However, the BB reminds of the book Of Mice and Men which is a timeless tale. The jargon and vocabulary might be different but the story is as relevant today as it was when the book was first published.

I view the BB in the same light.



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