dSober

I can't think of a better, more concise, definition/description of God. Can you?

jdooner

Perhaps its the stage I am at but I am not trying to define my construct of God at this point in time. Through my own experiences I now accept and know (for me) that there is something at work much greater than my own power and I am okay with that. If I begin defining God then I am taking the power back from accepting and limiting what is possible, IME. Said differently, I am closing myself off from being more open to what I don’t know. It is the process of seeking that I find my energy not my own definitions - that would be pride.

Keep on your journey Dsober!

dSober

Not me, nor should anyone, IMHO. But I found I was hung up on "What is God" for a long, long time. Hung up for years, trying to really get past step 3. Desperation forced me to find some definition/description, for myself, I could live with. I'm now trying to refine it for a better, clearer understanding and appreciation of my "Meaning of Life". Monte Python's is not quite good enough for me, lol. I'm very open to any suggestions and that's why I started this thread.

I understand that many in AA say: "Just get over it already and move on" and rightly so. I can't recommend the miserable seven year path I took. It wasn't fun. But I took it and I never want to go back there again. Now, I feel compelled to continue "Clearing Up Nicely". At least now, I feel I have some basic, preliminary understanding of what I, and others, mean when I/they say God. They're not necessarily the same. In fact, I believe no two are exactly identical. I believe God is that personal.

Btw, my tag here started as "Needs Clarity", then "Getting Clearer", then what it is today: "Clearing Up Nicely". Although I'd love it to someday say "I Can See Clearly Now", I doubt it ever will.

dSober

Btw2, sorry, slight temporary tangent from a "madman", lol. I love poker. Chess with chips to me. "High Roller", the Stu Unger story just came on the tube. Never seen it before. Loved "Rounders". Hopefully this one's even better, deeper. We'll see.

caboblanco

I think of it more of infinite peace...human love is usually different then divine love...from my experience anyway

oh sorry..got stuck in the 12-step section unknowingly again

RobbyRobot

Getting hung up offers us opportunities to become more enlightened to our personal journey, and so being hung up is not such a negative, or at least does not need to be in all experiences. Reasonableness and definitive logic cannot satisfy for me the God question. The experience of the journey is the thing itself, and so when we define this or that has helping or not helping, we do well to pause and meditate on our choices at hand.

I believe people trip up more on underappreciated themselves than they do on their apparent misunderstandings on God. This can be a challenge to appreciate ourselves as its always easier to claim something is (or was or will be) missing then is to act responsibly on what we have in hand already.

God being love does not define God for me, for what is love? I experience love in and all around me, and yet this does not mean I can readily define love. Generalizing my experiences into neat concise phrases does not satisfy me enough to claim I know love definitively. Certainly I know of love enough to realize I know but little of what is to know. I'm humbled by my own sense of being awed by the power of love in my life. I've learned from experience I don't need all the answers to all my questions, and in fact I do better to ask better questions than to just seek better answers from myself. How we craft our questions is as important as how we subsequently acknowledge our experiences.

dSober

Thanks Robby. I guess the engineer/scientist, born in me as far as I can tell, seeks answers. Too much at times. I guess the love concept appeals to me from hearing things like: "God so loved the world...", "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do.", etc.. But I know I'll never have complete definitions of some things.

I agree about getting hung up. I don't regret it anymore because I love the place it's gotten me to, so far. I know I'm still on the road and will be forever. I just can't recommend the same path because I believe I've seen some on shorter paths with less thorns.

dSober

Good movie, "High Rollers". Not about poker though; about addiction.

RobbyRobot

A path with less thorns does not in itself equate to a superior journey, you know? As well, shortness neither. We all have our pains. How we choose to suffer or even not suffer from our pains is really optional. Within my psyche are doors and windows which are better left alone since my opening of them only brings me unresolvable hurts. I don't need every pain and hurt be healed. I can yet flourish in happiness without suffering by simply detaching from those hurts which surpass my present opportunities to resolve. My sadness does indeed nourish my happiness. Paradox.

So for me, I really am not concerned with the machinations of my journey itself. Rather I do my best to realize the best roses grow best in an abundance of shitt - thorns and all, lol. I'm grateful enough to be satisfied I'm not already dead to be overly concerned on making myself all comfy and sassy I suppose. I'm okay with my hurts and pains. In fact, they are my oldest recollections...

dSober

I'm happy for you Robby. I'm more concerned about those still early enough of their paths to perhaps benefit from those who may be further along.

jdooner

I think your tag line should actually be a series of books about your story DSober.

RobbyRobot

Hmm.

You know, I too had a day one for my sobriety journey. You've apparently missed the point of my response to you dSober. To put it to you plainly, its not really helpful for you to judge the meaningfulness of others paths by comparison to your own frustrations with your own past journey, imo.

This can become, in practice, a slippery slope of using subjective judgments of your own experiences with your own challenges being used to "reason out" the challenges of others.

There are no shortcuts for any of us in walking our own paths. No one can walk it for us, no one can shorten it either. Walking our own walk is entirely our own responsibility. Being an example is a good thing. However, saying you don't regret your own path because it got you to where your at means that you would do well to extend that understanding to others because it is your actual experience. Otherwise, you're offering shortcuts that are deducted but not experienced by yourself on your journey until AFTER the fact...

me thinks we are about to agree to disagree...

Boleo

"If you need a reason to love, you have already sinned."
(Meister Eckhart)

dSober

Maybe. Are you saying I shouldn't talk about my experiences, feelings and "discoveries" because I hope that sharing them may allow others to see they were not necessarily the "best", or only ways? Can't others have shallower, softer bottoms? Must we all hit hard before we bounce back, or worse yet, not?

dSober

Lol, I actually contacted a ghost writer by email not too long ago but never persued it through a phone call he suggested. Maybe someday. I hate writing too long even more than reading past a few pages. My ideal novel is about ten pages. Thanks brother.

RobbyRobot

Talking about our experiences is what we have to give others, and in the giving lives are indeed saved. Its not your experience I'm suggesting you don't share about.

It's the idea that we all struggle in the same ways over same things. I'm an alcoholic who quit drinking. So, does that mean that all persons who quit drinking are alcoholics? As well, I failed at quitting for six years. Does my experience inform me to why others also failed over a period of years? And, I have a spiritual recovery from my alcoholism. Does this mean that I have spiritual insight into all people who quit ie I can direct them to how to admit to being alcoholic and how to then enjoy a spiritual recovery?

The answer to all three is: NO

I can share my experiences, but this does not mean I can conclude that I have insight into others challenges if my insights are only based on my experiences. For me to have real insight into others, this requires others sharing their own experiences while I keep an open mind to what they are sharing...

As for does everybody have to hit their bottom hard? Well, bottoms are of our own making, and what would be the point in any body quitting if anybody's bottom was not hard and difficult, relative to their own life experiences? In our own eyes, we all hit it hard, yeah?

Seeking a softer bottom does us no good favour, imo. It is far better to just create a bottom and be done with it, now and forever, and forget about modulating a certain kind of bottom for whatever reason.

dSober

Sorry Robby but I do not believe the only path to heaven is straight trough the middle of hell. If I see somebody stuck, struggling to find another path, I'm going to go to any lengths to help them find it, as long as they keep looking. I believe the lit. refers to raising the bottom somewhere too.

Sounds like, as you suggested, we agree to disagree.

RobbyRobot

Yes. Step one talks about raising the bottom of what it means to admit to being an alcoholic as described in AA. This kind of inspiration is very useful and can save years of suffering for those who are as yet undecided about being alcoholic. Or have closed off their minds to being alcoholic in their drinking. No worries there.

In this case though, I thought we were talking about getting hung up on God, yeah? In any case, I hope things turn out as you expect working with others. For me, I learnt long ago to let go of my expectations. I also learned that being right or wrong on an issue isn't always the most important thing either. For me, experience is everything.

muvinon

God as you understand him........

So that works just fine.

michaels_w

I'm going with that, Muvinon.
Thank you,

michaels