Why a spiritual cure for physical disease?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 375
When I am drinking I don't need to bother with philosophical, spiritual or religious questions... I can just have a drink and have a good time, then feel sick and miserable then do it all over again. Once alcohol is gone from the equation and I start to wonder what I am doing on this planet... then I suddenly need a reason to stay sober otherwise I start thinking... what's the point anyway, I'm going to turn to dust in a few years time.
I may be allergic to alcohol or not, I don't know. I can just stay away from it and that's a non question. In order to stay away from it I need to make sense of the past including all the horrible and sad things I have done and I have to make sense of the future which includes some sort of purpose for my life, including helping others.
In the meantime, all sorts of annoying and upsetting things will happen because life is like that and I need some new strategies for coping. Doing my best then handing over the rest is one way.
Last time I managed any sort of sobriety I did it without AA and I found myself seeking spiritual answers anyway. I think it just goes with the territory for many people.
Good luck.
I may be allergic to alcohol or not, I don't know. I can just stay away from it and that's a non question. In order to stay away from it I need to make sense of the past including all the horrible and sad things I have done and I have to make sense of the future which includes some sort of purpose for my life, including helping others.
In the meantime, all sorts of annoying and upsetting things will happen because life is like that and I need some new strategies for coping. Doing my best then handing over the rest is one way.
Last time I managed any sort of sobriety I did it without AA and I found myself seeking spiritual answers anyway. I think it just goes with the territory for many people.
Good luck.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by WhiteFeathers 
Hi. I'm giving AA a real shot. I've been going to meetings diligently for a few months now and I'm sincerely wondering...
If alcoholism is a physical disease-- an allergy, like Dr. Silkworth puts it in the BB-- then why do we need the moral inventory, the making of amends, etc. that results in the spiritual treatment of the disease?
If alcoholism is an "allergy" that you are born with, something like-- I want to say, celiac disease (you eat one piece of gluten and then you get sick)-- what does confessing my wrongs to someone else do? How do working the steps prevent me from picking up the first drink?
This is an inconsistency that is really creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for me and I would really love some input from people who have experience with the 12 steps.
If alcoholism is a physical disease-- an allergy, like Dr. Silkworth puts it in the BB-- then why do we need the moral inventory, the making of amends, etc. that results in the spiritual treatment of the disease?
If alcoholism is an "allergy" that you are born with, something like-- I want to say, celiac disease (you eat one piece of gluten and then you get sick)-- what does confessing my wrongs to someone else do? How do working the steps prevent me from picking up the first drink?
This is an inconsistency that is really creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for me and I would really love some input from people who have experience with the 12 steps.
You write this inconsistency is creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for you.
Really?
12 steps.
In order.
Title page....forward.
Get a book, do the work.
Leave the cognitive dissonance for another year.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 49
I had to stop asking "why" and just do what was suggested. That was just for me. As intelligent as I (thought I) was, and as stubborn and as obstinate as I was ... the misery got great enough for me to try something different.
When I ask "why" today, I'm generally seeking an easier softer path when it comes to living sober.
That's just for me and has been my experience. Hope and happiness started to arrive when I stopped asking why and worrying about answers.
When I ask "why" today, I'm generally seeking an easier softer path when it comes to living sober.
That's just for me and has been my experience. Hope and happiness started to arrive when I stopped asking why and worrying about answers.
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by AnyLengths
I had to stop asking "why" and just do what was suggested. That was just for me. As intelligent as I (thought I) was, and as stubborn and as obstinate as I was ... the misery got great enough for me to try something different.
When I ask "why" today, I'm generally seeking an easier softer path when it comes to living sober.
That's just for me and has been my experience. Hope and happiness started to arrive when I stopped asking why and worrying about answers.
When I ask "why" today, I'm generally seeking an easier softer path when it comes to living sober.
That's just for me and has been my experience. Hope and happiness started to arrive when I stopped asking why and worrying about answers.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North of England
Posts: 1,442
[Edit: This was a response to Mountainmanbob's post on the previous page]
Just to put an alternative point of view to the above, from someone who does not believe in god(s), I think the 'spiritual' side of AA can be seen as an emotional and personal element of recovery that attempts to put others before the self - to diminish the focus on ourselves and our egos and instead to think of others, to put them first, to do 'service' for AA and so forth. Arguably addiction is in some respects the over-indulgence of self and ego and letting go of that aspect to me at any rate is how I interpret the meaning of the word 'spiritual' as used in AA.
Just to put an alternative point of view to the above, from someone who does not believe in god(s), I think the 'spiritual' side of AA can be seen as an emotional and personal element of recovery that attempts to put others before the self - to diminish the focus on ourselves and our egos and instead to think of others, to put them first, to do 'service' for AA and so forth. Arguably addiction is in some respects the over-indulgence of self and ego and letting go of that aspect to me at any rate is how I interpret the meaning of the word 'spiritual' as used in AA.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
It's not just physical, it's a body, mind and spiritual disorder. There's a reason the AMA classifies addiction as a psychiatric disorder, we alcoholics think differently from other folks. As Bill Wilson points out in the Big Book, drinking is but a symptom.........
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: California
Posts: 228
Originally Posted by FlyerFan
Why do people get cancer for no reason sometimes? We don't really know. There is a theory that it is genetic. In my case, I believe that fully. My grandfather was alcoholic, several of my aunts and uncles are, and two of my brothers are, and so am I.
When people claim they were born with alcoholism--that is, the genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse-- wouldn't abstinence be enough?
The fact that babies would be born with a "spiritual disease" makes no sense to me. Is this Original Sin stuff? Granted, babies are born with physical diseases all the time.
FTR, I don't much buy into the physical allergy description for myself. I believe my drinking problems are behavioral issues that stem from problems I don't mind calling "spiritual" in nature. There is no alcoholism in my family, but I grew up in a dysfunctional environment which, I believe, contributed to my drinking and drug use.
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by WhiteFeathers
Cancer is not a spiritual disease, though. Certainly there are some people who think all disease of the body is spiritual in nature (check out the Christian Scientists). I, personally, have major problems with that philosophy.
When people claim they were born with alcoholism--that is, the genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse-- wouldn't abstinence be enough?
The fact that babies would be born with a "spiritual disease" makes no sense to me. Is this Original Sin stuff? Granted, babies are born with physical diseases all the time.
FTR, I don't much buy into the physical allergy description for myself. I believe my drinking problems are behavioral issues that stem from problems I don't mind calling "spiritual" in nature. There is no alcoholism in my family, but I grew up in a dysfunctional environment which, I believe, contributed to my drinking and drug use.
When people claim they were born with alcoholism--that is, the genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse-- wouldn't abstinence be enough?
The fact that babies would be born with a "spiritual disease" makes no sense to me. Is this Original Sin stuff? Granted, babies are born with physical diseases all the time.
FTR, I don't much buy into the physical allergy description for myself. I believe my drinking problems are behavioral issues that stem from problems I don't mind calling "spiritual" in nature. There is no alcoholism in my family, but I grew up in a dysfunctional environment which, I believe, contributed to my drinking and drug use.
I do hope one day they discover a genetic link, just so I can finally say that I am not crazy and that my family is genetically nuts. LOL :P
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by mfanch
My advice (what worked for me, anyway):
There is nothing to figure out.
We act our way into correct thinking, so just do the work. The rest will follow. Promise.
Glad you are here.
There is nothing to figure out.
We act our way into correct thinking, so just do the work. The rest will follow. Promise.
Glad you are here.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Hi WhiteFeathers, the others have given all the great answers I think. But I did want to say: You're going to be told to "just do it" and don't question so much, don't worry. That's good advice for some. But I am/was like you. It's taken me a while to digest some of the things in the Big Book. I had major issues with fundamental tenets in the program.
Let it sit there in your mind. Don't force anything. Don't rush through the Steps. For me, that would have been a bad route to take.
Those are my thoughts. Take it or leave it
You raise good questions, and they do need to be answered by YOU. So, just give yourself some time. But do keep moving forward.
Let it sit there in your mind. Don't force anything. Don't rush through the Steps. For me, that would have been a bad route to take.
Those are my thoughts. Take it or leave it
You raise good questions, and they do need to be answered by YOU. So, just give yourself some time. But do keep moving forward.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 888
I think alcoholism is just a symptom of the real disease, addiction. I relate the disease of addiction to Type 1 diabetes cause I'm familiar with it, my 9 year old daughter has had it since she was 2. There is at present no cure for her disease; however it can be treated with daily injections of insulin which allows her to live a normal life. Addiction is similar in that there is no know cure, as in take this pill or have this surgery and you'll be cured; however it has been shown that the program of AA can treat the disease and allow the person to live a normal life. I relate the insulin for diabetics to the same thing as meetings, step work and service through AA.
So, when my daughter's blood sugar goes to low or to high her personality and behavior changes drastically. She can become argumentative, destructive and outright 'un-spiritual” It takes a daily regimen of insulin to keep her balanced in every aspect of her life; physical, mental and spiritual. The same thing applies to my addiction. I have a physical allergy to alcohol and a very addictive personality which causes (spiritual) issue as well. It takes a spiritual solution in order to combat the disease of addiction because its symptoms are spiritual in nature. By this I mean when I drink alcohol the allergy kicks in and my behavior becomes destructive, immoral, corrupt, dishonest and at times plain evil. My wife has told me that I actually turn into someone she doesn’t even recognize. It’s the whole Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde deal. So, depending on a persons thoughts and ideas about spiritual things, it stands to reason that like insulin for the diabetic, looking outside of myself to AA and a higher power (prayer, meditation, AA steps, introspect, all things spiritual) will indeed bring relief.
I don't know, but hopefully this made some sense : )
So, when my daughter's blood sugar goes to low or to high her personality and behavior changes drastically. She can become argumentative, destructive and outright 'un-spiritual” It takes a daily regimen of insulin to keep her balanced in every aspect of her life; physical, mental and spiritual. The same thing applies to my addiction. I have a physical allergy to alcohol and a very addictive personality which causes (spiritual) issue as well. It takes a spiritual solution in order to combat the disease of addiction because its symptoms are spiritual in nature. By this I mean when I drink alcohol the allergy kicks in and my behavior becomes destructive, immoral, corrupt, dishonest and at times plain evil. My wife has told me that I actually turn into someone she doesn’t even recognize. It’s the whole Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde deal. So, depending on a persons thoughts and ideas about spiritual things, it stands to reason that like insulin for the diabetic, looking outside of myself to AA and a higher power (prayer, meditation, AA steps, introspect, all things spiritual) will indeed bring relief.
I don't know, but hopefully this made some sense : )
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Deep South
Posts: 71
"Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions."
That said it all to me. My drinking wasn't really about drinking. It was about a whole lot of other things. Sure, I have a physical allergy and that's a huge part of it, but I am an alcoholic because I have the mind of an alcoholic and that requires a spiritual program. The BB talks about some people going a time without drinking until our thinking convinces us to go back out. It's a mental craving, really. It also says the obsession is lifted once we straighten out the spiritual malady and continue to work on that spiritual condition.
That said it all to me. My drinking wasn't really about drinking. It was about a whole lot of other things. Sure, I have a physical allergy and that's a huge part of it, but I am an alcoholic because I have the mind of an alcoholic and that requires a spiritual program. The BB talks about some people going a time without drinking until our thinking convinces us to go back out. It's a mental craving, really. It also says the obsession is lifted once we straighten out the spiritual malady and continue to work on that spiritual condition.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Interesting thread...
As I always saw it, I have a three-fold illness. Mental, Physical and Spiritual. And the spiritual dimension is my only viable line of attack.
- The Physical cannot be changed. Permanent state of affairs. Once I've crossed that line I have no control over the amount I take. I can't drink safely. Perhaps not immediately but in a short time, I will be as bad as ever. So I need to abstain.
- That means overcoming the Mental. Overcoming my obsession with, and compulsion to drink, so i never set the physical in motion. Things would be fine and dandy if, by my own willpower I could fight the urge to drink. My experience tells me I can't. My head is too tricky. At certain times i dont have the desire or enthusiasm to fight drink, let alone the ability. My mind fogs up. Sometimes I don't even have the awareness of what I'm going to do next. It's too powerful. Without help it's too much.
So I can't change the physical and I cant fight the Mental. Thar leaves only one option...to treat the spiritual malady. To go in search of spiritual power. Doesn't matter whether it makes sense, or even if it's the best or easiest option. As an alcoholic, it is the ONLY route in if I'm to have a chance of overcoming alcoholism.
What is the spiritual malady? What is the spiritual solution? Like lots of things I leave that for each man to decide for himself...being too specific or prescriptive about spiritual matters always seems to lead to confusion and argument. But I believe that both questions are answered pretty comprehensively in the basic text of Alcoholics Anonymous.
One more point...is the spiritual malady specific to alcoholics? I believe not. We might be a little more messed up than some folk...if we werent that way to begin with 20/30 years of drinking will do plenty to warp your spiritual condition. But ALL people are, to some extent, spiritually sick. Theres a lot of sickness in the world that comes out in lots of different ways. The only difference for us is that, as alcoholics, we are COMPELLED to address it. If we don't we die.
Just some thoughts, no expert me. And if another man can get well without a spiritual solution...my hat is off to him
P
As I always saw it, I have a three-fold illness. Mental, Physical and Spiritual. And the spiritual dimension is my only viable line of attack.
- The Physical cannot be changed. Permanent state of affairs. Once I've crossed that line I have no control over the amount I take. I can't drink safely. Perhaps not immediately but in a short time, I will be as bad as ever. So I need to abstain.
- That means overcoming the Mental. Overcoming my obsession with, and compulsion to drink, so i never set the physical in motion. Things would be fine and dandy if, by my own willpower I could fight the urge to drink. My experience tells me I can't. My head is too tricky. At certain times i dont have the desire or enthusiasm to fight drink, let alone the ability. My mind fogs up. Sometimes I don't even have the awareness of what I'm going to do next. It's too powerful. Without help it's too much.
So I can't change the physical and I cant fight the Mental. Thar leaves only one option...to treat the spiritual malady. To go in search of spiritual power. Doesn't matter whether it makes sense, or even if it's the best or easiest option. As an alcoholic, it is the ONLY route in if I'm to have a chance of overcoming alcoholism.
What is the spiritual malady? What is the spiritual solution? Like lots of things I leave that for each man to decide for himself...being too specific or prescriptive about spiritual matters always seems to lead to confusion and argument. But I believe that both questions are answered pretty comprehensively in the basic text of Alcoholics Anonymous.
One more point...is the spiritual malady specific to alcoholics? I believe not. We might be a little more messed up than some folk...if we werent that way to begin with 20/30 years of drinking will do plenty to warp your spiritual condition. But ALL people are, to some extent, spiritually sick. Theres a lot of sickness in the world that comes out in lots of different ways. The only difference for us is that, as alcoholics, we are COMPELLED to address it. If we don't we die.
Just some thoughts, no expert me. And if another man can get well without a spiritual solution...my hat is off to him
P
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
SoberJennie
Hi WhiteFeathers, the others have given all the great answers I think. But I did want to say: You're going to be told to "just do it" and don't question so much, don't worry. That's good advice for some.
Hi WhiteFeathers, the others have given all the great answers I think. But I did want to say: You're going to be told to "just do it" and don't question so much, don't worry. That's good advice for some.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by SoulSister
I think we can come up with just about any reason to avoid doing the work asked of us in the program of AA.
You write this inconsistency is creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for you.
Really?
12 steps.
In order.
Title page....forward.
Get a book, do the work.
Leave the cognitive dissonance for another year.
You write this inconsistency is creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for you.
Really?
12 steps.
In order.
Title page....forward.
Get a book, do the work.
Leave the cognitive dissonance for another year.
I had gone back and read some of your posts and see you have been trying to get and stay sober for awhile.
I just wanted to cut through any analysis and get you to the heart of the matter...to take action and figure out what you may or may not agree with later.
I use to think that just because I found fault or inconsistency with something meant it wouldn't work for me, it couldn't work for me.
I would pre-judge, and give myself one more reason to think this could not work for me.
My reply was too short. Please forgive me.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Huntington Woods, Michigan
Posts: 465
Originally Posted by WhiteFeathers
Hi. I'm giving AA a real shot. I've been going to meetings diligently for a few months now and I'm sincerely wondering... If alcoholism is a physical disease-- an allergy, like Dr. Silkworth puts it in the BB-- then why do we need the moral inventory, the making of amends, etc. that results in the spiritual treatment of the disease? If alcoholism is an "allergy" that you are born with, something like-- I want to say, celiac disease (you eat one piece of gluten and then you get sick)-- what does confessing my wrongs to someone else do? How do working the steps prevent me from picking up the first drink? This is an inconsistency that is really creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for me and I would really love some input from people who have experience with the 12 steps.
Alcoholism is caused a person drinking to the point where ones body can no longer process alcohol effectively. You aren't born with it, though some people cross the physical line rather quickly developing that abnormal physical condition of the body that results in craving.
The picking up of the first drink comes from spiritual disease/separation from God. The book says that from resentment stem all forms of spiritual disease. So the resentment problem needs to be solved. The twelve steps treat resentments. That's why the spiritual disease is not mentioned in the book until step four. If you do the steps, you will understand the nature of your spiritual disease. Yes, all humans have it to some extent. My friend goes shopping if she doesn't get spiritually well. Shopping doesn't kill her. There's no physical craving forcing her to continue shopping until she is dead. If I don't get spiritually well, I drink. For me, if I drink, I head towards an early painful death. Drinking is my symptom of spiritual disease. Shopping is hers.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Sarajevo
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by WhiteFeathers
Hi. I'm giving AA a real shot. I've been going to meetings diligently for a few months now and I'm sincerely wondering...
If alcoholism is a physical disease-- an allergy, like Dr. Silkworth puts it in the BB-- then why do we need the moral inventory, the making of amends, etc. that results in the spiritual treatment of the disease?
If alcoholism is an "allergy" that you are born with, something like-- I want to say, celiac disease (you eat one piece of gluten and then you get sick)-- what does confessing my wrongs to someone else do? How do working the steps prevent me from picking up the first drink?
This is an inconsistency that is really creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for me and I would really love some input from people who have experience with the 12 steps.
If alcoholism is a physical disease-- an allergy, like Dr. Silkworth puts it in the BB-- then why do we need the moral inventory, the making of amends, etc. that results in the spiritual treatment of the disease?
If alcoholism is an "allergy" that you are born with, something like-- I want to say, celiac disease (you eat one piece of gluten and then you get sick)-- what does confessing my wrongs to someone else do? How do working the steps prevent me from picking up the first drink?
This is an inconsistency that is really creating a lot of cognitive dissonance for me and I would really love some input from people who have experience with the 12 steps.
If you want that, I can send you some youtube videos where all this invisible process is brought to light. Otherwise, since it is spiritual, it is invisible, and people not trained in scrpture simply find it impossible to understand.
Let me know if you want those links or not.
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