awuh1

I feel compelled to reiterate two thoughts. First that I fear that the only people who will get it are those who have already gotten it. Second, that that the tenor of an individual’s postings (including the context in which they say it) speaks to the quality of their sobriety.
In the end, I hope to be wrong on both counts.

Soberpotamus

I relate very much to what PaperDolls has experienced. Very, very similar. Thanks for sharing this.

NYCDoglvr

Whenever someone says they'll never admit to being powerless I point out that it's "powerless over alcohol". I'm in my 22nd year of sobriety and am an agnostic. I do, however, have a higher power.

Soberpotamus

Great point.

Sometimes it seemed that people took the powerlessness concept too far, and it bled over into every area of their lives. That was the biggest turnoff for me. But I came from a very close-minded small town religious background, and I was running from the learned helplessness that I saw all around me growing up. In retrospect, maybe those people were just practicing the Serenity prayer.

But yeah, I only felt I was powerless over the drinking. And whatever else are those things that we just cannot change, namely, others and their opinions and actions.

Zencat

Yes I believe some people feel that. Before a throughout investigation and years of experiences with AA, I too was in the group that thought of AA as religious. I had some nasty experiences with religion as I grew up. I came to despise everything connected to religion/God and all things spiritual of a supernatural order. So entering AA I had some serious heavy baggage that tainted my view of the AA 12 Step shebang.

What is helping me overcome my long time ill feeling towards God, religion and AA is SR for the most part. I have come to a peaceful understanding of 'Him' as something reverent to me personally. This came about under the spiritual guidance of deceased AA member Jim Burwell a.k.a Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps. I now follow Him as a AA member that worked the 12 Steps with great results.

He wrote:
”For the new agnostic or atheist just coming in, I will try to give very briefly my milestones in recovery.- J.B., San Diego, California.

As a person of non-faith I can still find my way in AA by using the AA code: "Love and tolerance of others is our code." -Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (12 & 12).

PaperDolls

Zencat - If I could 'thank' you post twice (or more) I would.

Soberpotamus

Yeah, same here. I like when he posts about this guy. Lol. I've seen this post before. I like this guy's versions of the Higher Power. And how they progressed.

CousinA

Jimmy Burwell is my favorite old timer. I wouldn't be here without the 3rd Tradition and "as I understand him", which isn't him or anyone. I too have a higher power that I don't call god. What anyone else believes is an outside issue and none of my business.

-allan

Ohio1

I'm confused by your post- I feel like AA is exactly the place to discuss difficulties staying clean and sober- what were people talking about at the meetings you went to?

As for options other than AA I don't know of anywhere else to find a bunch of sober alcoholics- believe me I would have gone there first lol.

fini

Grungehead,
i was trying to refer to a situation in general without pointing to you specifically, but i'm not good at that and your example was fresh.
didn't mean to offend you.

it sure can get complicated...i'd be very hesitant to think i had anything specifically of benefit to offer in a section where people are specifically posting about the 12-step program. i'd assume that others, also involved in that particular program, would have a more....hm...congruous, less from "out there" perspective and tools to offer.
just as i try not to interrupt too much in AVRT discussions, as that's not what i'm involved with, either.

the title turned me off big-time, as it sounded like someone feeling pity. i had a very negative response to it. this is not a bad thing; it made me keep reading and thinking and looking.
would i like to have the experience of awesomeness and richness the OP speaks of? sure.
do i think i'd have it if i followed the program? possibly.
is it good for me to deal with my negative reaction to the statement that someone feels sad for me for being where i'm at? yes. don't like it, and there's no need to feel sad for me, but yes.to start with, it's great and positive for me to figure out why it would matter one bit what some stranger on the internet feels for people like me...why would that touch me anywhere at all????
one thing i had to realize is that saying "i feel sad for those who..." is not at all the same as saying "i feel sorry for those who..."

but all this is too much info now and getting away from the OP and the general discussion....

ru12

You should see some of the lovely private messages I've gotten from members of this forum section.

To the OP . . . I've been sober for quite a spell now (for me). I'm happy. My life is so much better now that I put the bottle down and got on with living a productive and useful life. There is no need to feel sad for me or people like me.

And yes I am one of those people that doesn't subscribe to being powerless over alcohol. Because I'm not. I have booze here in the house (wife drinks) and it doesn't interest me a bit. I've lost the urge to drink.

I'm not sure what I believe about higher powers. But even if there was a higher power, why would it care at all about me killing myself with alcohol when it appears indifferent to children being gasses, or raped by priests and teachers, or people dying of hunger, or being beat, or. . .?

Finally, I have the opposite problem of having or a giant ego . . . I'm just not that important for a HP (if there were one) to give a care about. Why would I think I would matter enough for this special attention when millions of others are ignored? This is just my experience. I am well aware that not many feel this way.

I'm glad when any drunk gets sober.

I'm also glad that AA works so well for those it works for. And if AA helped me to stop drinking I would be evangelizing for it too.

Oh and I read in most sections of SR. I am interested in what others do to stay sober. I don't post here to **** off AA members, but sometimes text on the screen can be taken in ways not meant by the writer. And for me, that may be a result of my lack of talent at expressing my thoughts clearly.

Grungehead

Hi fini,

No offense taken!

I realized that my post was very short with no details so I thought it might help to elaborate. I have no problem with other's views on recovery as long as the discussion remains civil, which I believe it has. If one can find lasting sobriety and enjoy life in the process I don't see the need to question how they achieve that.

freshstart57

Anyone can read that exchange to which you are referring, Grungehead. It is here. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post4119687

You received no mistreatment by posters there, and your sobriety was not impugned and denigrated, and you were not told to go post in another forum instead. But, you were admonished by a moderator, along with another regular poster, for breaking forum rules. Not a big deal, you are always welcome there.

Onward!

Fandy

the title of this thread caught my eye as I was looking at new posts... no alarm went off when I opened the thread.

although I'm sure the OP didn't mean it this way after reading here, it comes across as smug and overbearing. I had no intention of posting, but in reading further, when someone else posted that she thought AA was a solution for other problems of life, I couldn't believe it....I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion and no one needs express permission of a certain group to post anywhere....I chuckled when I read "you're certainly welcome to post here, but I don't know WHY you do", kind of like when my dog marks his spot.

I've also gotten some rather rude PMs from those that follow AA because
I don't follow any formal program or want to be recruited, or because I do point out an alternate POV for a new poster rather than watch them get bombarded. (evidently I am not a "real alcoholic" or the KIND of alcoholic that needs help)
I've tried to word this politely and I am respectful of what works for those that follow AA. I do NOT pity others that cannot or do not wish to follow what I do...i'm sober 2+ years and very happy with the "non-method". it frees me up to work on the rest of my life I've managed to save. I'm happy, successful and grateful to be here.

mick3580

I'm a plastic alcoholic. I respect your view.

Kathleen41

That's the best chuckle I've had all day!! Of course you couldnt believe it!!

I hope this wasn't meant to be a quotation of my post, if you are going to quote me please be accurate, this isn't what I wrote.

Soberpotamus

Ha!! I get that one often. Ridiculous. I've even had people in a meeting suggest to me I don't belong there. So, I left! I thought, wow, if the people here are that judgmental I certainly don't want this.

Grungehead

Nor did I say that any of that occurred.

I did notice how quickly any discussion of 12 step recovery was put to a stop in that forum when it doesn't happen on this forum. The feeling I got was that I was allowed to read but not share my opinion in the secular forum even though it was simply my interpretation of what I believe "white knuckling" to mean, where here the discussion is breaking down now to the point that non 12 step members are starting to belittle 12 step beliefs. But thank you for leaving the light on for me in case I want to drop by from time to time.

paul99

It's all about perception...a new pair of glasses, perhaps?

Grungehead

If you're speaking to me Paul...yeah I thought about that after my last post. Anytime I start a sentence out with "I feel" or words to that effect there is a good chance that I'm off base. When I made my "Yikes" post I put the smiley there hoping that people would understand that that it was supposed to be humorous in nature, but I probably missed the mark there too.