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Sad for those who don't understand

Old 09-01-2013, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
Thanks LadyBlue for starting this thread. I fear however that the only people who will get it are those who have already gotten it. My hope is that perhaps a few will be encouraged to find out for themselves.
I agree with this, and I agree with you too, LadyBlue.

I am very thankful for AA in connecting me to my HP and early on I wanted to shout it out off the rooftops. I wished all the alcoholics (and even non-alcoholics) could get on the same page and experience such a thing. But there are those even in the rooms who aren't there and may never get there. While part of me wishes they would "get" it, I am not God and cannot play God. I can only do His will and carry the message and describe what the program has done for me, but I don't choose who "gets" it or not. I was ready for AA and the Creator long before I got into the rooms. So I didn't have the struggles that many did in balking at the program and fighting it. I bought in right at the gate. I had no choice...I was going to die sooner, rather than later. I was desperate.

For those who struggle with the program and/or the concept of God as we understood Him or who have contempt prior to investigation or don't see AA the way we "see" it - so be it. I can only share what has worked for me, discuss the solution and try and be the best example of an AA member within and outside the rooms, but other than that, it's out of my hands. A bigger and better One will take care of everything else. For me today, I can only be grateful for all of this.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:22 AM
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Such a wonderful post. Thank you.

I think of all the years spent chasing outside "stuff," and I, too, am so grateful that I finally got myself into enough trouble with alcoholism to pause and listen and learn a different way to live.

Can't bottle this deal.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527 View Post
The peace, the serenity, and the true enjoyment of life. I never imagined that this could be possible, not ever.
I've never been to AA and I feel the exact same way. Kinda cool how different recovery methods can yield the same results!
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by FormerBeerLover View Post
I've never been to AA and I feel the exact same way. Kinda cool how different recovery methods can yield the same results!
I'm ecstatic for you that you feel that way and I'm being completely serious.

I'm hoping that the original intent of my post doesn't get lost, my inability to write anything other than a novel sometimes impedes the point from getting through. Who me? noooooo!

The two surface concepts that are used as to why someone doesn't want to use AA as their program:

1. AA is not a religious organization where everyone gets on their knees and prays to one God as you do in church. You don't need to be religious.

2. Admitting that you are powerless over alcohol is not giving up everything that you believe in and succumbing to something. You are simply admitting that all attempts at not picking up a drink have failed therefore you are powerless over alcohol without help. If you weren't powerless you wouldn't need help. Whether you choose AA or an alternate program you are still doing the same, you're just not voicing it.

My own take as to why someone should be more open to trying it.

3. The benefits (at least for me) of AA are far above and beyond that of getting sober. You can learn more about yourself and the world around you and how to make things better regardless of alcohol use. It's not a program to get sober, it's a program that helps you get sober but at the same time it teaches you how to live well.

I never meant to imply that other people can't find their way to peace and serenity by doing their own thing. However, I have tried every other program out there and none have done what this one has. It's my own conclusion and some may disagree. That's ok. Just disheartened by the preconceived understanding of the program.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:30 AM
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In my time here at SR, especially since I have gone through the steps, I have noticed many similarities with different members here using different programs to stay sober. It's in their words, it's in their actions, and it's in the beliefs they have shared with others in the forums. I see them living a spiritual life, and/or cleaning up the wreckage of their past, trying to do the next right thing, treating others the way they would like to be treated, and always trying to help others achieve sobriety. They all seem to have a solid foundation of recovery, whether they are in AA or using other tools. I know who these members are, and I admire them and always listen to what they have to say regardless of what method they use to stay sober. The common thread I see that seems to run between all of these people, inside and outside of the program of AA, is that they realize that a life driven by ego is at the root of the problem.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:09 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527 View Post
I'm ecstatic for you that you feel that way and I'm being completely serious.


The two surface concepts that are used as to why someone doesn't want to use AA as their program:

1. AA is not a religious organization where everyone gets on their knees and prays to one God as you do in church. You don't need to be religious.

2. Admitting that you are powerless over alcohol is not giving up everything that you believe in and succumbing to something. You are simply admitting that all attempts at not picking up a drink have failed therefore you are powerless over alcohol without help. If you weren't powerless you wouldn't need help. Whether you choose AA or an alternate program you are still doing the same, you're just not voicing it.

.
I am one of those who tried 12-step recovery for a few years, and left because it did not help me. I think you misundersdand what many of us say.

1-AA IS religious. It is built on belief in a "higher power." Even if you do not pray as in church or choose the higher power for yourself, it is still a god.

I think that people who are religious often define "religion" as the type of worship they were part of in childhood---and people who are not define it as a type of belief.

So religious people see a meeting in which there are no sacraments or fixed prayers as being "non-religious" but the nonreligiuos folk see a meeting focused on telling stories about how people's various higher powers improved their lives as very religious.

Furthermore, every AA meeting I attended ended with the Our Father--which was prayed like in church. And every religious person in the world chooses their own god. That is why people convert or opt out of organized denominations to worship as they choose on their own. In any case, I do not see how belief in a higher power can be anything but religious belief. And there is nothing wrong about that if you can accept that..


2. I can only speak for myself, but I do not have a problem with "powerlessness." Rather it is that the help offered in 12-step recovery was ineffective for me.

Anyone who goes into therapy,AVRT, SmartRecovery, etc. is in effect saying that they need help because they are not able to recover on their own. So this one feels like a semantic issue rather than a substantive one. It feels like people have more trouble with the word "powerless" than the concept--and that the real problem is that AA just is not helpful for them.

So while some people who reject AA may truly do not understand it, there are many people who do understand it and still decide it is not for them. And it is only sad, if they stop searching for what will work for them.

Maybe instead of trying to insist that everyone would benefit from one path to recovery if they just really tried, we should be glad that there are so many roads to recovery---all of which work for some people. The fact that no one has to depend on just one technique for recovery but can find one that is the best for him or her is a great thing.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:28 AM
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Great thread. I can definitely see many of the points made here. Thank you everyone for sharing.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:37 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by miamifella View Post
Maybe instead of trying to insist that everyone would benefit from one path to recovery if they just really tried, we should be glad that there are so many roads to recovery---all of which work for some people. The fact that no one has to depend on just one technique for recovery but can find one that is the best for him or her is a great thing.
It would be extremely dishonest of me to say I was not guilty of my bias to AA and my perceived view of lack of effort by others to achieve results. It's definitely something I struggle with, but you make some good points. However, my view came from my own lack effort put forth, not getting any results, throwing my hands up, and drinking/drugging again before I "tried" another recovery program.

Then I decided to give it a shot and "work the steps" to see what would happen. And it worked. AA, as such, is therefore the only program I really have given a try. I guess I should be more grateful that I found something that works a lot easier than others in this struggle we all have in common.

I'm glad you found something that works, miami. More power to ya!
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:47 AM
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You know what, I had a long post typed up, but I just deleted all the text as discussing AA is not beneficial to my sobriety. Everyone have a great sober day.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:55 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Did someone in this thread insist that the only path is AA?

Maybe instead of trying to insist that everyone would benefit from one path to recovery if they just really tried, we should be glad that there are so many roads to recovery---all of which work for some people. The fact that no one has to depend on just one technique for recovery but can find one that is the best for him or her is a great thing.
I'm sincerely confused. From the words "we should be glad" you and I are spot on the same page. The post point is the lack of understanding of AA and the statements that are made. I get what you mean by the Our Father comment but if I choose to not recite that prayer at the end of the meeting, or to alter it to fit my needs no one's going to boot me out of AA. I can take what I want and leave the rest at the door. There is no rule that you must recite the prayer.

In totality and every post aside that's been done so far there's one thing that's certain. Anytime that you hear a member discussing the good that comes from the program and what it's done for them it results in posts that imply that all and any posts about AA are an attempt to shove the program down people's throats. That isn't what this thread is about. If someone has no interest in AA and feels that way why do they even bother to post a reply in a thread that's regarding the same?

I am saying this with the utmost respect that you are entitled to have your own opinion about AA. Why the fight to prove what's said as being wrong?
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:08 AM
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"AA IS religious"

Thanks for a good laugh, that's twice in 2 days i have laughed out loud:-)

I would love to see this explained to a religious person, how AA is in fact religious and all our beliefs are very much the same as that religion. You can explain to them how drinking is not a sin, how there is no hell etc. Then please on go to tell them that the God they believe in with such deep belief is actually a God of their understanding and yours is a God of your understanding putting their God and your God on the same footing as it's ok to believe in a God of your choosing as opposed to the one that comes from whatever book that religion follows.

Then after that conversation you can be thankful you live in a bubble in a western country and not in somewhere like the Middle East where you would be at least seriously berated, maybe imprisoned for inferring that AA is religious and making any form of comparison to their religion.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:38 PM
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yeahgr8--

Again, as I said, religious people tend to think that because AA is not like the church they grew up with that it is not religious. I think that is what you are doing.

I never said that ALL AA members were part of the same religion or shared any religious beliefs. However, it is expected that they all have some belief in a higher power. So they may be a bit more like the Unitarians than the Evangelicals.

I went through years of Catholic education and worked for a diocese for many years. It is a pretty common theological idea that our conception of god is formed by our own understanding. (AA did not create this idea.) And one priest I worked with extended this to say that when people converted from one church to another it was in search of an organized faith that matched their understanding. I think he was right. The religion you choose to be part of is the one that espouses the god of your understanding. Or if you do not find one that matches your understanding, you just do not take part in any organized faith and pray privately.

Whether people think your faith and your god are on the same parr as theirs is irrelevant. Just because an Evangelical thinks a Jew and a Buddhist are "not on the same footing" as his faith does not make Judaism and Buddhism any less religions--so that conversation that you suggest seems pointless. Most people of faith do not need the approval of people outside their faith to carry on their beliefs.

Just because a faith does not fit in with your own ideas of what a religion is does not make it "nonreligious." Belief in a higher power independent of oneself and spiritual in nature, be it an old man in a white beard, group energy, the force of nature, karma, etc. is by its nature religious belief. I am not sure how (or why) anyone tries to get around that.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:44 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527 View Post
Did someone in this thread insist that the only path is AA?
I am sorry that I misinterpreted. Your original post seemed to me to state that if people truly understood AA they would stay in the program and benefit from it.

I think one of the great things about AA is that they insist that we cannot tell other people what to do but only share our own experience.

In rereading your post, your bigger message was that AA was terrific for you and you wished others could have a similar experience. I see that your enthusiasm made it seem as if you were saying that everyone would benefit from AA and that the kind of joy you found was not available elsewhere. But I realize now that that was not what you were saying.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:50 PM
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I do not think AA is very big here, they do exist though.

We have an other organization with the same aim, that is much larger and has strong ties to the Church.

AA is very low profile here – they seem to take the anonymous part very seriously.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527 View Post
How many times have we read the words "I'm not doing AA because I'm not religious" or "I refuse to say that I'm powerless".

If they could only see that AA is far more than a program to achieve sobriety. For me, realizing that goodness and accountability remains on this earth and that it starts with me has restored my faith in humanity and in myself. The perk is I get to get sober at the same time.

They don't get the words "as we understand him" and choose to imagine people all praying to one God that they must believe in for them to be healed.

Finally, it's perceived that admitting being powerless is a negative experience. On the contrary, the day that I admitted that I was it was as though a ton of bricks had been unloaded off of my back. I was powerless, every attempt that I had made had failed.

I respect everyone's decision as to what works for them but I wish that I could share the indescribable feelings that I have now. The peace, the serenity, and the true enjoyment of life. I've had some close calls and because of this place and my belief in AA I continue forward. I never imagined that this could be possible, not ever. I truly believed that I would die alone as a drunk having alienated everyone in my life because of who I was when I drank. I was headed in that direction.

I just can't be more thankful. I see those comments and they're much representative of the surface. It's like saying you don't want to go see the pyramids because you saw a blurry picture of two of the stones. There is so much more to see with clarity.
I look at it a different way. Instead, I am grateful that I DO understand....
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by miamifella View Post
yeahgr8--

Again, as I said, religious people tend to think that because AA is not like the church they grew up with that it is not religious. I think that is what you are doing.

I never said that ALL AA members were part of the same religion or shared any religious beliefs. However, it is expected that they all have some belief in a higher power. So they may be a bit more like the Unitarians than the Evangelicals.

I went through years of Catholic education and worked for a diocese for many years. It is a pretty common theological idea that our conception of god is formed by our own understanding. (AA did not create this idea.) And one priest I worked with extended this to say that when people converted from one church to another it was in search of an organized faith that matched their understanding. I think he was right. The religion you choose to be part of is the one that espouses the god of your understanding. Or if you do not find one that matches your understanding, you just do not take part in any organized faith and pray privately.

Whether people think your faith and your god are on the same parr as theirs is irrelevant. Just because an Evangelical thinks a Jew and a Buddhist are "not on the same footing" as his faith does not make Judaism and Buddhism any less religions--so that conversation that you suggest seems pointless. Most people of faith do not need the approval of people outside their faith to carry on their beliefs.

Just because a faith does not fit in with your own ideas of what a religion is does not make it "nonreligious." Belief in a higher power independent of oneself and spiritual in nature, be it an old man in a white beard, group energy, the force of nature, karma, etc. is by its nature religious belief. I am not sure how (or why) anyone tries to get around that.
If you work the steps in AA then yes you definitely are encouraged and indeed expected to find a power greater than yourself to rely on as relying on oneself clearly has not worked for that individual. This Higher Power can be of that individual's choosing.

Tell you what I will agree for a second that there is a religion out there, as you suggest, that allows their followers to choose their version of God. I don't believe there is a main stream religion that allows that flexibility, but will agree for sake of argument.

Athiesm
rejection of belief in God or gods.

So in AA we have quite a few athiests that get sober by believing in a power greater than themselves, some choose gravity, the group of AA or someone passed that they hold dear etc.

What religion allows a new member to come into it's fold with the knowledge that new member does not and will not believe in the God that religion follows?

So i rock up to my local Church of England Sunday Service and I ask the vicar about getting married in his church. He then asks my faith and i say i don't have one and even more than that i don't believe in God but i do believe in a higher power and it's a group of drunks that meets twice a week....what do you think he is going to say? The best case scenario is that the church insists that he take an oath to raise his children in that faith and to ensure they believe in God etc.

So how again is AA a religious group?
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:07 PM
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I agree with you on some levels. And I experienced similar, after having had a view of AA that was formed by my earlier years... my mom carting me off to sit with the other kids in a room while the adults had their AA meeting, and watching oodles of men hit on my mom in the program; well I was not stupid, and I so I formed a view of AA that was rather unsavory. But it was the view of a child, and of an outsider, as she was the one in the program, not me.

There is one thing that I wish for the whole powerlessness concept... I wish that they'd originally articulated that concept as one of "acceptance" rather than powerlessness. I don't think many can see past the admittance of powerlessness, to get to the part where we find serenity in acceptance of the reality of our situation with this substance abuse problem/disease/disorder/condition. Because ultimately, I think it all hinges on getting past powerlessness and recognizing where we stand. In all areas of life.
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8 View Post
"AA IS religious"

Thanks for a good laugh, that's twice in 2 days i have laughed out loud:-)

I would love to see this explained to a religious person, how AA is in fact religious...
Perhaps these examples would help:

On June 11, 1996, the New York Court of Appeals ruled, in Griffin vs.Coughlin that the substance abuse program then in use by the New York Department of Corrections was unconstitutional because, "after a fair reading of the doctrinal literature of Alcoholics Anonymous, [the 12-step program was found to be] unequicocably religious."

In August, 1996, The U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District ruled, in Kerr v. Lind, et. al., that because AA is religious, an inmate's rights were violated when privileges and consideration for parole were withdrawn as a direct result of his refusal to participate in 12-step meetings.

In a 1994 case in federal court (O'Connor vs. Orange County and the State of California), AA was found to be "religious," and the State of California must now offer alternatives to 12-step programs in any state-funded or mandated program. Rational Recovery was identified as an acceptable alternative in that decision,

In 1994, a man in New York convicted of drunk driving was sentenced to AA as an alternative to imprisonment. In Warner vs. Orange County Department of Probation, he prevailed in a decision finding the defendant guilty of violating the First Amendment by "coercing the plaintiff to participate in religious exercises, an act which tends towards the establishment of a state religious faith."

No one needs to agree that AA is religious; everyone here can put forth the notion that AA is spiritual rather than religious if they like, but it seems that scoffing in contempt (and laughing at other peoples ideas qualifies) at the idea that many folks believe that it is, prior to investigation, is the pot calling the kettle black.

Not every religion says that all people need to believe the same. The Unity church comes to mind.
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FormerBeerLover View Post
I've never been to AA and I feel the exact same way. Kinda cool how different recovery methods can yield the same results!
Yes it is.
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8 View Post

What religion allows a new member to come into it's fold with the knowledge that new member does not and will not believe in the God that religion follows?
Off the top of my head, Unitarians and Buddhists do not even require any belief in a deity. I was recently asked to join a Unitarian congregation and was told that I could join even if I was an atheist.

Originally Posted by yeahgr8 View Post
So i rock up to my local Church of England Sunday Service and I ask the vicar about getting married in his church. He then asks my faith and i say i don't have one and even more than that i don't believe in God but i do believe in a higher power and it's a group of drunks that meets twice a week....what do you think he is going to say? The best case scenario is that the church insists that he take an oath to raise his children in that faith and to ensure they believe in God etc.

So how again is AA a religious group?

I guess if you need the approval of a Church of England vicar for a belief to qualify as religious, then AA is not religious.

But there are many people who do not want to be part of any church, but still have their own individual spiritual beliefs about a higher power. I guess you feel religion has to have some organization's stamp of approval, then their spiritual beliefs about god are not religious.
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