Boleo

If I were to go to a forum specifically discussing cars, car performance and car quality... Would I get more respect for talking about high quality or low quality cars? For some reason, high-quality is a forbidden subject here.

Let's face it (again), we got Yugo lovers here trying to talk newcomers out of looking for reliability, comfort and safety.

Soberpotamus

Can you say that Matt Talbot, in your opinion, achieved spiritual enlightenment?

That's very understandable, Boleo. This principle is a far cry, however, from making a statement that non-AAs are unable to achieve spiritual enlightenment.

Can't you see the difference?

RobbyRobot

Yeah, not caring what people think goes along with being arrogant, that's for sure, lol. Obviously you care enough anyways of what people think to post, otherwise, what would be your point in sharing?! When people talk about not caring what others think all the while as they give of themselves in a personal way, I have learned to not so readily agree with their not caring claim of indifference.

Even though its truth some have commented and not claimed a spiritual awakening, this truth does not equate to allow those who have experienced such an awakening to claim that without such an awakening they have missed out on what is essential.

For those wanting spirituality, sure, if they have not experienced such, then yeah, they are missing out. For those though who freely choose to not have any such spiritual awakening, they are missing out on NADA. NOTHING.

Spirituality is a CHOICE. Forced or otherwise enslavement to spiritual purposes is a joke and worse than a joke.

I too have been on both sides of the spiritual awakening when becoming recovered in my own life. Did it work out to my satisfaction without my being spiritual? - no, it didn't. So does my being spiritual mean that all others after me must also be spiritual because that is my successful position? - no, it does not.

Spirituality will not long survive without the power of free choice to sustain such awesomeness. As well, those who freely choose otherwise as well experience awesomeness too. Yeah, there are differences in experience. Absolutely. Whatever. Neither side can take away the veracity of the other persons experience no matter the origins of that differing personal experience.

Boleo

Of course I can see the difference. I spent quite a few years carrying the Middle Of The Road (MOTR) message so as to not rock the boat. Do you want to know what changed my mind?

ATTENDING TOO MANY FUNERALS FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.

Soberpotamus

So can you say... "Non-AAs (and middle of the road AAs who haven't reached spiritual enlightenment, etc) can NOT attain true spiritual enlightenment without going through the true (whatever that really means) AA steps or program?"

Can you say it, Boleo?

miamifella

But high-quality in a car is not an absolute anymore than it is in recovery. The car that may be first-rate for a urban family may not be great for someone who hauls around furniture or for someone who travels long distances off-road.

People are different. What is high-quality for one is not the best for another. Just like the religion or real estate or diet that suits one will not suit another. One size never fits all--in recovery just like in all other areas of life.

One of the great lessons I leaned in AA is that one should only share one's own experience---not make general pronouncement on what everyone should do. I know that these guidelines do not count outside of the meeting, but I think they are good guidelnes in all parts of life. One's personal experience is always true--but ones proscriptive advice will always be wrong for someone.

RobbyRobot

I hear you, no problem. At the same time, for me to say I'm having a superior life experience because I have quality cars to choose from would be an arrogant admission. I can go as far as saying I believe I enjoy my 370Z more then you enjoy your whatever, but I can't say I have a superior life simply because I have a 370Z and you don't.

High quality is not forbidden here. It's not however allowed to slap around those who do not feel all that wonderful about their quality of life at the present time for whatever reasons. High quality speaks for itself. It doesn't need to be over-sold and re-packaged for common consumption. Everybody knows when they have it, and when they don't. Goes without saying there is no need to otherwise make it out to be something that it is not because after all is said and done its really just a personal choice for any of us.

soberhawk

Have this thread not lost the AA focus it has more gotten about what spiritual awakening is or maybe it is about cars – I am not sure.

Maybe it is a language thing – I have lost what this is about.

Soberpotamus

I am asking something that, in my opinion, is absurd... however, Boleo seems to think that using reason and logic about a topic such as spirituality (which is by nature, highly subjective) is valid.

I just want to see if he'll outright make the claim he always seems to allude to, that is all.

Boleo

Do you know who else was famous for being "arrogant"? Clarence Synder.

I would not have wanted him for a friend or for a neighbor because of his brash tone. But I would have been grateful to have him for a sponsor. He worked with over 5,500 alcoholics and claimed to have a 75% success rate. If that figure seems far fetched, keep in mind he was obsessed with keeping records.

Being around him might not have been a very pleasant experience. However, being around him would have been a very sobering experience.

"Giving a newcomer options is not an act of kindness".
(Clarence Snyder)

RobbyRobot

It is kinda confusing, lol.

The thing being discussed is:

Does the possession of an spiritual awakening experience(s) provide for a superior sober life-style?

And does the non-possession equate to mean an inferior sober life-style?

miamifella

I think a thread is like a conversation. It can go to a lot of different places--often unexpected. While I cannot say I am learning much about cars, I am learning a lot about why AA works for some people. Not the topic of the first few posts, but an interesting one (to me at least).

I spent years in AA and never understood a lot about it until coming to SR. The restrictions on what can be discussed by members is relaxed here, so I am learning a lot that I wish I had known years ago.

And usually I learn the most from long threads that travel through a number of topics.

awuh1

Thanks ladyblue for your last post. The original post was about something more than just sobriety in and of itself. This thread has gotten away from that idea. Lots of folks who have never experienced this ‘something more’ have assumed they know what is being talked about in that original post. They don’t. They have not experienced the steps and the ability to share the result of that process (for them personally), with others in the AA community.

That will not stop many of them from having an opinion about those that have had this experience, but again, it is an opinion about something they have not experienced.

I don’t expect them to understand it and either do I expect many of them to fail to have an opinion about it.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, I hear you here too.

The thing is, for me, arrogance in whatever context for whatever justification takes away from my own ideal spiritual experiences. There are no spiritual requirements to my being arrogant with others who disagree with me.

I never met Clarence. If being around him was not so pleasant for me, I would look else where for my examples of spirituality at work. Being uncomfortable as whomever chastises me is not a requirement for me to be at my best spiritually.

freya

AMEN! I love this! So powerful and so very, very true...just that simple act of submission / obedience and EVERYTHING changes...really...and, what, really, has anyone got to lose by giving it a go????? I guess maybe it's just been so long for me since I've felt that insane level of fear of giving up my delusion of control, and I just so love the sensation of taking the leap and then the free-fall and then the ecstasy -- there is no other word, although even that one doesn't do the experience justice -- of being "caught," held, loved and lifted by Spirit.

I've had those 10th Step promises come true for me in regards to several (previously insoluble) issues/problems in my life (i.e. "...our new attitude has been given us with no thought or effort on our part...The problem has been removed. It does not exist for us." BB,1st ed. p.85 )...

Just recently I called a program friend to ask for some guidance/direction/input around a certain (heavily Christian and very Catholic) metaphor that's been being brought up to me a lot lately. It's not a metaphor I am personally comfortable with, but, based on previous experience going where I'm lead on the 12 Step path, I would be willing to bet my life that, not only I will be very comfortable with it in a few months, but I'll have learned/grown a whole lot in the process of getting there.

But, anyways, my friend said it would take him a little bit to get his thoughts together on the issue...and he told me to read The Meditations of St. Teresa in the meantime...which, yeah, I've read some of her more autobiographical stuff, but it's been awhile and the whole idea of reading the founder of the Carmelites in connection with the metaphor at hand kinda skeeved me out -- but, you know what? I called and asked for help, and I was told to do X, so the next right thing for me to do is to obey by doing X.

...and the first week was pretty hard...I mean, I was doing it, but with a lot of resistance and a lot of focusing on every little thing about it that irritated me, or p*ssed me off, or that I think I have a philosophical difference with...and I talked to several people about it -- people who I knew I could trust to tell me what I needed to hear:

You asked for help, frey. You were directed to the person you asked, and he's a person you respect and trust. He is willing to help you and told you what he wanted you to do. You don't need to like it. You don't need to understand it. You don't need to think it's going to help...you just need to do it.

...and yesterday, for the first time, I was reading what I was supposed to read for the day, and I just wasn't resisting or judging, and I actually really liked it and got something out of it, which is always a definite sign that my ego has been driven back and I am truly in submission. So, yeah, now I just need to keep on the path and wait for whatever great insight/revelation/healing/etc... is going to happen this time.

God is good...and God is good all the time!

freya

Soberpotamus

And if the above statements are true and valid (the two made by RobbyRobot), ... who are those people, or group of people, that have achieved the spiritual awakening??

I mean, come on... if you ARE spiritual, is it a spiritual characteristic to go around claiming that, not only are you spiritual... but you and your group of people are the "most spiritual" because only this group of people have found "the way" to achieve the best and most spiritual enlightenment available to those in recovery??

I only want Boleo to type out one sentence making this claim And not to dance all around it with his car talk.

Boleo

"Sad for those who don't understand"
(from the Original Post)

I will not deny it. I really... really... really am sad for those that don't understand. Those that think not-drinking is the end-all to sobriety, really... really... really don't get it.

Soberpotamus

I don't hear you saying, Boleo, that it's just those who don't drink who aren't getting it... what are you really saying here??

Do you honestly believe that anyone not in AA getting spiritually enlightened through the Steps done correctly (and don't give me semantics here, I have watched your posts long enough to know exactly what you mean, most times anyway) are just not drinking, and that is the extent of their recovery?

Soberpotamus

That is a good point, imo.

RobbyRobot

Yes, this is a valid real experience you are sharing, Boleo. And others too share with you in agreement. However, no matter how many are in agreement, it still does not become more important then any individuals choice to have chosen a different way and make exactly the same claim for themselves as those who claim a spiritual sobriety - that is that they too are awesomely happy, and successful, and fulfilled, and, and, and...

Let's get truthful here - being sad for others is a choice made and is not in any ways related to the right of the others to make different choices for themselves. Be sad if you must, but that is YOUR choice, Boleo.

For me, having had spiritual awakenings and experiences, I'm of a different opinion - I do not feel sadness for those who openly made different choices to become sober. I do feel sadness for those who don't become sober, of course. Otherwise, if they are happy with their efforts and results, who am I to take them to task?