magic

How many of you have heard the Lord's Prayer at an
A.A. meeting. I just wondered because our meeting is
wanting to not use it for closing anymore, and I have
been going there for 20 years, so I am alittle partial.
I think it is fine to have a group decision on this, and
I like many other prayers and sayings for closing as well.
But I don't think we should ban it all together, and I
for one will use it if I am chairing. Just thought it
was pretty common at meetings, but I haven't been to
alot of other meetings lately so can you let me know.
Thanks
Magic

phoenix

These are the two traditions that cover what you want to know.


2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority — a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

This means that decisions regarding the group are made by the members of that group,who have(hopefully)considered all the implications of any decision very carefully.


4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.


And this means that the group is free to conduct itself as it's members see fit,and to make decisions regarding format and group business,so long as those decisions do not have an impact on other groups or AA as a whole.

If your group chooses not to use the Lord's Prayer it would be wise to accept that decision and to abide by it when you chair.If it troubles you too greatly,maybe you should consider exploring other meetings.

I do understand your loyalty to the group,and your feelings about the prayer.But the traditions were developed over 60 years ago,after much debate and strife over how groups should operate.They protect the group and the individual as well.

Regards,

phoenix

The Jay Walker

Magic

at most of the meetings I go to, the leader will ask somebody to take us out with the prayer of there choice,
often it is the lords prayer or the serenity prayer,
but I do know of one mens stag that does not allow the lords prayer, I don't go to it.

Adamus

Personally, my favorite meeting open is the 3rd step prayer, and close with the 7th step, they rawk!

I'm not a Christian, but my Jewish friend says the Lord's Prayer is old skool enough for his faith to use it. (I guess that makes it Biblical Old Testament Stylee). But where does that put those of us who could give a rat's hindquarters about bread- knowing full well what the symbolism is. I say the prayer, but I have no affinity for it.

Anyway, it's all Fellowship anyway, so what's it really matter? Meetings aren't the program! That's why you can go to meetings that have all sorts of different customs/ rituals/ whatever you want to call them.

Personally, the fewer the "rituals" in the meeting the better I like it. I hate all that chanting bulldada some meetings acquire: "It works if you work it, it won't if you don't, so work it, you're worth it, blah blah blah blah blah!" I hate the crap!

Like was said, roll with it, not a big deal. If you dislike it that much, vote with your feet. Or take sweet, sweet revenge by secretly replace their caffeinated coffee with decaf, mwahahaha!

Chy

It's recently come to my attention it's simply done differently everywhere. We open with the Serenity Prayer and always close with the Lords Prayer.. double dose of staying connected for me.

In our online meetings we just close with the Serenity Prayer.. but perhaps that can change as well. Different strokes for different folks.

MootPoint

I have only been to one meeting that didn't close with the Lord's Prayer. And that meeting was just as good as the others. So, doesn't matter much to me how they close.

The Jay Walker

It really matters little to me wich prayer is used, the thing that bugs me is that a group would BAN the lords prayer, we each need the freedom to find our own H.P.
for a group to go as far as banning a certain prayer, seems out of line to me.

phoenix

Jay..I doubt that a group would actually consider it a ban.But most groups that I attend have a format for opening and closing.The chairperson is expected to follow the format.I think it matters little what prayer,if any is used.But I do think the decisions made by the group conscience should be respected if a person is chairing.

phoenix

DolphinBlue

Interesting, I've never heard the Lord's Prayer in a meeting. We always close every meeting here with the Serenity Prayer.

I really like the Lord's Prayer, I have a copy of it somewhere so I don't forget it. But I've forgotten where I put it.

Amy

Paulie

When I first got sober the Lords Prayer was said at every meeting I went to at the closing, the Serenity Prayer at the opening. Now slowly over the past few years things have changed. people have started saying different prayers at the end, it is fine with me. But I would also have a problem if a group banned the Lord's Prayer. Usually the person closing the meeting says what prayer they want to say, Lords Prayer, Serenity or 3rd step.

The Jay Walker

Paulie

I'm with you on that.

from the A.A. service manual, 96-97 edition Pg. s46
in reference to the third tradition,

" our membership ought to include all who suffer from Alcoholism. hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or CONFORMITY. "



Quote by music
"I think it is fine to have a group decision on this, and
I like many other prayers and sayings for closing as well.
But I don't think we should ban it all together,


sounds like a ban to me, also the mens stag in my area that I was reffering to has a Ban on that prayer as well, it is stated in the meeting format that, no one shall recite the lords prayer in that meeting.
I know from personal experience with that group that it is to keep members with christian beliefs out,
I am not a christian, but can see how this goes against our 1st tradition, and our third tradition. it reeks of conformity,

I am all for the group concience, and understand it's importance, But this group has gone so far astray that they have been removed from the meeting directory. and are no longer registered with G.S.O.

without a G.S.R. or an Intergroup Rep. a group can get real sick real fast.

JACK B.

HELLO,
DITTO TO NO BAN.
I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN, BUT IT IS A GREAT PRAYER.
AND TO LET YOU, ALL KNOW, THAT IN VANC. WA. I THINK ALL OF THE MEETING'S I'VE BEEN TO, START WITH THE SERENTY PRAYER AND
END WITH THE LORD'S PRAYER BUT NEVER HAD THE THIRD STEP
PRAYER, THAT'S THE PRAYER I USE, THE MOST WHEN BY MYSELF.
THANK'S
JACK B.

Teamfour

FWIW, get the book Sermon on the Mount by Emmet Fox and read the analysis of the Lord's Prayer in the back. It will give you a whole new outlook on the prayer and make you think twice about not saying it.

Recoveree

Is AA Just for Christians?

At the beginning of every meeting of my home group, we read, "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes." This statement makes me feel good. As a person with strong spiritual, social, and political convictions, I wouldn't have lasted a month in the program if AA had supported a political movement, economic interest, or organized religion. As it is, I've enjoyed two years of sobriety, spiritual growth, and amazing personal development in AA. I am past retirement age, but have never had a happier two years in my life.

However, there's a fly in the ointment, for me and a few other AA members I know. It's the practice of saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of our meetings. Two people have told me that they left my home group because of this. To me, insisting on the use of a prayer taken from the New Testament of the Christian Bible (Matthew 6:9-13) is a contradiction of AA's commitment never to be "allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution." As a Christian Internet source states, "Through this prayer, Jesus invites us to approach God as Father. Indeed, the Lord's Prayer has been called a summary of the Christian gospel." I am not a Christian. My spirituality does not embrace a personal God in the image of a deity of either gender.

I often attend Big Book study meetings where we read AA's assurances to alcoholics that they're free to choose their own higher power: "When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God." We also read, "To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive."
When I voice my objection to members of my home group, I'm generally told that the Lord's Prayer is universal and applies to alcoholics of all creeds and religions, which is untrue. (The people who say this usually come from Christian backgrounds.) Some have implied that I'm being rebellious or controlling - in other words, behaving like an alcoholic. One woman suggested that I bring the matter up for a group conscience vote. I'm afraid to do this because I think I know what the outcome will be, and it will make me angry, and resentment is a feeling I can't afford.
So, at the close of each meeting, I murmur my own prayer in cadence with the Lord's Prayer, loud enough for my ears but not loud enough to disturb the group. While this helps, I still feel excluded from the group during the closing prayer. A little voice in me asks, "Why do they tell me I can have my own conception of God and then force theirs on me at the end of each meeting?"
Moreover, I've often wondered why we have no Jews or Asians in our large morning meeting. Are there no Jewish or Asian alcoholics in Gainesville? Are they, too, turned off by our Christian orientation? Are we unwittingly discouraging people with nonChristian beliefs from attending AA meetings?
Recently, I did an Internet search using the words "Lord's Prayer" and "AA meetings" to see whether other recovering alcoholics shared my concern. I found more than two hundred links. In an e-journal article in Sober Times, a recovering alcoholic wrote, "Prayer at meetings, specifically the Lord's Prayer, is a long-running hot topic that crops up on a regular basis at AA meetings around the world. To many AAs, the Twelve Steps may be, as the Big Book puts it, merely 'suggested as a program of recovery,' but the Lord's Prayer is mandatory. . . . Insulting people with a prayer they do not believe in, or making them feel apart from instead of part of, is not helpful." That's exactly how I feel when I stand in the closing circle of our group and hear the Lord's Prayer recited by everyone but me.

My Internet search also revealed that many Jews are troubled by AA's use of the Lord's Prayer. A website sponsored by Jewish Alcoholics, Chemically Dependent Persons, and Significant Others (JACS) contained an article by Rabbi Steven Morris describing his work with Jewish alcoholics. He says that he's often asked, "Rabbi, can I say the Lord's Prayer at the end of an AA meeting?" Rabbi Morris wrote, "The struggle for an answer has been a major focus of my rabbinical studies these last two years." Obviously, I have company in my concern.
In another Internet article, reprinted from the Journal of Reform Judaism, a now-deceased alcoholic rabbi described how he requested the Central Committee of American Rabbis to address this issue in the mid-1980s. "The response of the committee was that the profound Christian associations of this prayer - particularly because it was prescribed by the founder of that faith - makes its use unacceptable to Jews." A member of the committee advised, "As it is recited at the conclusion of the meeting, there is really no reason to participate. One can stand in silence, and I am sure that this would be respected and understood."

An alcoholic who covered the Civil Rights movement in the sixties as a reporter, recently conducted an informal Internet survey of AA members and groups around the world, asking them to answer the questions: "What prayers do you use at your meetings?" and "Why?" E-mail responses came from sober Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintoists, Native Americans, atheists, and pagans from North America, Europe, Australia, Asia, and Africa. The responses indicated that most groups in nonChristian parts of the world, particularly India and Asian countries, use the Serenity Prayer to close their meetings. A recovering alcoholic in Bangalore, India, reported that the Serenity Prayer has been translated into eight Indian languages and is used in most Alcoholics Anonymous meetings attended by Hindus and Buddhists. Some Japanese language groups modify the Serenity Prayer to omit the word "God." Even in some primarily Christian countries like Australia and New Zealand, the Serenity Prayer is more common than the Lord's Prayer. Other closing recitations reported in the survey were the Promises and AA's Declaration of Responsibility. Native American groups often use a prayer to the Great Spirit.

If AAs are truly compassionate and accepting, why do they insist on closing meetings with a prayer to a God some of us don't believe in? If I'm encouraged to find a God of my own understanding, why am I asked to pray to theirs? Words are important. If we mean what we say at the beginning of our meetings - "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution" - we should honor these words in the way we close our meetings.

Barb C.
Gainesville, Florida

© AA Grapevine, Inc. 2003

Recoveree

This is an excerpt from another newsletter,

It is from NA members, but the thoughts apply to any 12 step program.

“Then someone was asked to lead us in prayer. He started, "Our Father," and I started crying bitter tears. The last thing I wanted to hear was the Lord's Prayer. It's funny -- that prayer used to give me goose bumps. But not anymore; upon reflection, I realized that it's a Christian prayer and excludes those with other concepts of God. I much prefer the simple NA Third Step Prayer, "Many of us have said, 'take my will and my life; guide me in my Recovery; show me how to live."' It's inclusive. I abstained from reciting the Lord's Prayer with the rest of the room as tears flowed freely.”

Here are some quotes from 12 step fellowship members on a discussion board about this subject.

“Since day one in NA I have sought loopholes: seeming contradictions that were and are proof positive that I ought not seek my relief via the NA way. When you told me that NA was not a religious program, for example, then proceeded to pray to a Christian God, I became skeptical. It could have been the excuse I needed to head for the door. Only a Goddess that I have come to know, possibly unlike the "father who art in heaven," has empowered me to ingore the lies I tell myself. Open and close with the Serenity Prayer. Please don't give me another reason, however illogical, to convince me that I don't need you.”

Comments
Personally, I think using the Serenity Prayer at both ends of our meetings is the best and seems to be universal. But since our strength really IS our diversity, I would like to encourage members to show a warmth and generousity to the sometimes confused members who may be Christian and let them know we are not rejecting them with this policy. I knew a family of recovering addicts where the guy had a high pressure job in one of the unions and spent much of his time at work or in the field. I was by his house and as a very welcome guest, was running off at the mouth about some of the changes in NA at that time and ran through the thing about how you would feel if you were Jewish and got hit with a Christian prayer every time you went to a meeting. He experienced such honest confusion because to him, while he understood the prayer was Christian, it was never meant to be offensive or exclusive. To my knowledge, he never properly processed this and it could have hurt his recovery at that point, or even now. Callousness is not spiritual and my heart goes out to our semantic victims who get caught in a word crunch where improvement is intended but harm is sometimes at least a factor in the result. It would have been better to have at least an inclusive prayer statement in the form of an ip or something to help these people process and deal with the changes.

Comments
The Lords prayer is without a doubt a Christian Prayer that does not belong in a Narcotics Anonymous meeting. What's even worse is that people are taking the high road on this issue, and trying to use the tenth tradition to hide behind. This is not an outside issue as it is addressed in "What is the Narcotics Anonymous Program". We are NOT CONNECTED with any political, RELIGOUS or law enforcement groups... The 3rd step says that the right to a God of my understanding is total and without catches, and to say any religious prayer in a meeting implies an endorsement of that religion. If you feel like maybe that’s not the case, the next time you are asked to close a meeting, ask everyone to kneel down, place their forehead on the floor and chant in the style of Hindu's. I look forward to hearing the response you get when you do this.”

Comments
“My personal experience was that the group I joined when getting clean used this prayer. For me, even with years of attending church and trying to do the right thing and because of that, saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting was highly uncomfortable. I chose to join the circle in unity but declined to say the prayer aloud. I recall one meeting when a newcomer was asked to close the meeting. He apologized to the group but said, "I don't say the Lord's Prayer." I can't describe what I felt at that moment but it was something akin to relief but realized that it made no difference when he closed with an Islamic prayer and I knew that as long as I tied spirituality together with religion, I would have trouble.”

Comments
“I consider myself a spiritual person. Yet when I went through treatment we were required to go to a Christian based recovery group. Not that I have anything against people who practice those beliefs, but it bothered me that people who didn't believe that way had no place in those rooms. I simply feel that we must be careful about religious overtones in our meetings. Every addict should be able to come to a meeting without feeling they are required to either change their religion or to even have to have one. Not one person I know likes to feel left out . Let's leave religion outside the rooms.”

Comments
I have found it interesting that in a lot of other recovery programs the Lords Prayer is used a lot. When the same people come to an NA meeting they respect the wish of many not to say it as we are not a religious program. Many of us have had bad experiences with organized religion and many newcomers are grateful that the program allows them to work out their feelings without having religion forced upon them

Comments
My beliefs have changed a lot over the past 5 1/2 or so years that I have been clean. I do not go to a house of worship, or read any one religious text. NA is not a religious program it is a spiritual program and every individual is entitled to their own beliefs no matter what they are. That is why; at least the meetings that I have attended, the meetings are usually close with the serenity prayer, rather than “The Lords Prayer.”

Comments

JACK B.

WOW! THANK'S FOR INFO.
YOU'VE OPENED A DOOR THAT I FORGOT WAS THERE.
I HAVE HAD THE OPTION AT MY HOME GROUP TO SAY EITHER
THE LORD'S PRAYER OR THE SERENTY PRAYER, CAUSE AT THE BOTTOM OF IT'S FORMAT IT DISPLAY'S THE OPTION.
I TOOK THAT OPTION TO CLOSE WITH THE SERENTY PRAYER,
AND FELT THE HEAVYNESS OF THE ROOM AND I HAVE WONDERED WHY IT IS THAT THE LORD'S PRAYER IS SO PROMINATE IN
VANC. WA.. I THINK I'LL INVESTIGATE IT FURTHER.

I'M NOT GONNA LIE TO YOU I AM WANTING TO CHECK OUT A CHRISTIAN CHURCH, CAUSE I'VE HAD A BIG PROBLEM WITH RELIGION IN THE PAST, MAINLY CHRISTIAN AND CATHOLIC THERE'S HISTORY IN MY FAMILY AS A CHILD WHERE IT SEEMED LIKE A BATTLE OF THESE 2 RELIGION'S THAT TORE THE FAMILY UP!
MY WIFE'S FAMILY TRIED TO GET ME INTO IT(CHRISTIAN). I COULDN'T HANDLE IT, IT REALLY PISSED ME OFF AT THAT TIME.
BUT THAT WAS THEN AND I'M TRYING TO SEE WHERE RELIGION
MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER, BUT I AGREE WITH YOU,
ABOUT IN THE MEETING'S CONSIDERING THE INFORMATION YOU SHARED.
I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S RELIGION
THAT MIGHT DIFFER FROM CHRISTIANITY AND HOW HARD THAT MIGHT BE FOR THEM TO HANDLE. LIKE I SAID BEFORE IF I WASN'T SO BEAT DOWN FROM ALCOHOL/DRUG'S I MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TOLERATE THIS PRAYER AND MIGHT HAVE WALKED OUT.
BUT THEN I WOULD HAVE TO MOVE OUT OF THIS TOWN, CAUSE IT'S AT EVERY MEETING THAT I'VE BEEN TO, AT LEAST 12 DIFFERANT MEETING LOCATION'S. AND I'VE GOTTEN TO A POINT
WERE I LIKE IT CAUSE I DIDN'T FEEL THE ANGER TOWARD'S THE
CHRISTIAN'S, IT'S THE IDEA OF GETTING IN CONTACT WITH A H.P..
THAT I AM FOR.
I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I HAVE ALMOST FOUR MONTH'S OFF
ALCOHOL AND DRUG'S, I HOPE THIS MAKE'S NO DIFFERANCE,
BUT I WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW.
THANK'S FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN A LITTLE MORE ON THE SUBJECT.
AND I WONDER IF YOUR HOME GROUP HAD A "INFORMED" GROUP
CONSCIENCE AS TO WHAT TYPE OF ADVERSE AFFECT'S IT MIGHT HAVE ON A NEW COMER, ANYWAY'S THAT'S A TUFF SPOT TO BE IN
AND I HAVE LITTLE EXPERIENCE AND JUST A OPINION ON THE SUBJECT. I WILL INVESTIGATE MORE CAUSE OF YOUR REPLY.
THANK'S FOR BEING HONEST. THAT'S MY TWO PENNY'S....
JACK B.

Recoveree

You can always print out the posts I made and bring them to your groups business meeting for discussion or to the diner for coffee and discussion. It always makes for an interssting evening, hehe.


>>I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I HAVE ALMOST FOUR MONTH'S OFF ALCOHOL AND DRUG'S, I HOPE THIS MAKE'S NO DIFFERANCE,
BUT I WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW. <<

It makes every difference in the world...... it means you are living life for a change..... congratuations on saving your life!!!

Love

Richie

Matt V.

I personally don't care which, if any, prayers a group choose to use in opening or closing meetings. I just don't participate. However, a question comes up. Isn't the use of western Christian prayers in meetings exclusionary of anyone that has very strong non-Christian beliefs? This could be a problem for newcomers that may feel as though they have to participate even though it goes against their own beliefs.

This debate has been raging since long before I came into AA, and probably will be long after I'm dead and gone. The fact of the matter is that AA has a very strong western Christian bias and always has. Denying that fact won't change it. One of the founders was a religious zealot. Fortunately, there were other members that could shorten his leash from time to time.

Recoveree

It excludes everyone who is not a Christian, whether or not they have "very strong" anti Christian beliefs.

Matt V.

I didn't say anti-Christian, I said non-Christian. There's a big difference. For instance, I'm not anti-anything, even though I have no religious beliefs of any kind myself. I have nothing against Christians, Jews, Moslems, etc., and I would wish that it wasn't held against me for not having any such beliefs.