The Lord's Prayer?
Subtle yet overstated....
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: So Chi Hts, IL
Posts: 46
Good food for thought
All of the meetings I attend close with the Lord's prayer, however it is not compulsory and not all members partake. It closes with the chair asking all those who would care to, to join in the Lord's Prayer. No one is singled out or ostracized for not doing so. The groups whose meetings I attend (and chair in one case) are very clear on their positions about it. A higher power is stressed as needed to relieve our alcoholism but no group tells anyone what path an individual should take. Having said all that (I think I use that phrase all too often!!), there are meetings that I WON'T attend because they are foisting their own religious views under the guise of "interpreting the BIg Book". I do have a higher power that I've come to rely on for guidance and strength. I also do join in in the recitation however that doesn't make me any better or any worse than anyone else, it just makes me me.
Great topic for discussion... Do people join in the prayer as an act of worship? fellowship? ritual? because they feel they have to in order to gain acceptance from the group? For me, it is more or less another conversation with my higher power, probably a little bit of worship, certainly some ritual based on my religious upbringing is in there and some fellowship...
I think I will bring it up at the meeting tonight. Should make for some rather passionate discussion
TimO
Great topic for discussion... Do people join in the prayer as an act of worship? fellowship? ritual? because they feel they have to in order to gain acceptance from the group? For me, it is more or less another conversation with my higher power, probably a little bit of worship, certainly some ritual based on my religious upbringing is in there and some fellowship...
I think I will bring it up at the meeting tonight. Should make for some rather passionate discussion
TimO
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Originally posted by The Jay Walker
It really matters little to me wich prayer is used, the thing that bugs me is that a group would BAN the lords prayer, we each need the freedom to find our own H.P.
for a group to go as far as banning a certain prayer, seems out of line to me.
It really matters little to me wich prayer is used, the thing that bugs me is that a group would BAN the lords prayer, we each need the freedom to find our own H.P.
for a group to go as far as banning a certain prayer, seems out of line to me.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
My mistake. I did not mean anti Christian beliefs.
I should have said..
It excludes everyone who is not a Christian, whether or not they have "very strong" non Christian beliefs.
I should have said..
It excludes everyone who is not a Christian, whether or not they have "very strong" non Christian beliefs.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
Recoveree
I'm not that good with words, so parhaps I didn't makt my opinion clear,
IMHO
anytime a group, starts to add there own requirements for members to be welcomed to the group, then it is straying away from its primary purpose, and violating the 3rd tradition.
the ONLY requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking, I have seen some groups come up with different ways to try to exclude certain people, it will allways be that way, thankfully we have the traditions, and GSO.
and AA in no way is supposed to tell any of us which prayers are beneficial to us, as individuals. if a group wants to make a decision on wich prayer to use, then they have that right through the informed group concience to do that, BUT if they puposfully usae that as a way to get people to CONFORM, or to keep certain people out, then it is a violation of the third tradition.
I'm not that good with words, so parhaps I didn't makt my opinion clear,
IMHO
anytime a group, starts to add there own requirements for members to be welcomed to the group, then it is straying away from its primary purpose, and violating the 3rd tradition.
the ONLY requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking, I have seen some groups come up with different ways to try to exclude certain people, it will allways be that way, thankfully we have the traditions, and GSO.
and AA in no way is supposed to tell any of us which prayers are beneficial to us, as individuals. if a group wants to make a decision on wich prayer to use, then they have that right through the informed group concience to do that, BUT if they puposfully usae that as a way to get people to CONFORM, or to keep certain people out, then it is a violation of the third tradition.
Extremity
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: somewhere, out over that away
Posts: 183
While researching the prayer in a Greek text bible I found that the instructions for it say to SAY it in private , not in chants, as we go when we gather hands. While I personally love the prayer, I do understand that we have many pagan beliefs that wish to recover. A men's stag or any other stag meeting is not really an A.A. meeting per se and is usually filled with beginners and old intellectuals that have no need for applied traditions. Leave them to their folly and let the individual chairing the meeting decide.
Why don't we say the second part of the "Serenity Prayer"?
"To take this world as it is,
not as I would have it.
That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy in the next"
I like to open meetings with this shortened one I found at our central office:
God, We come as friends to search our hearts.
We ask that you guide us closer and grant us new ways of living.
Why don't we say the second part of the "Serenity Prayer"?
"To take this world as it is,
not as I would have it.
That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy in the next"
I like to open meetings with this shortened one I found at our central office:
God, We come as friends to search our hearts.
We ask that you guide us closer and grant us new ways of living.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Re: Good food for thought
Originally posted by TimOFromChicago
All of the meetings I attend close with the Lord's prayer, however it is not compulsory and not all members partake. It closes with the chair asking all those who would care to, to join in the Lord's Prayer. No one is singled out or ostracized for not doing so.
All of the meetings I attend close with the Lord's prayer, however it is not compulsory and not all members partake. It closes with the chair asking all those who would care to, to join in the Lord's Prayer. No one is singled out or ostracized for not doing so.
Don't you think that in a circle of 25 alcoholics all chanting the Lord's prayer in unison, that the one person who doesn't believe in that religion and doesn't recite it FEELS different.
Dont you think that the person might FEEL ostracized and probably be "talked to" by some of the more zealous members??
Try an experiment......at your next AA meeting, when they formthe circle for the LordsPrayer, recite a different prayer at the same time......see if you dont get some negative feedback.
Richie
Subtle yet overstated....
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: So Chi Hts, IL
Posts: 46
Tried that too...
I mix it up on saturday mornings as I think doing any one thing repeatedly (aside from waking up sober 
) leads to stagnation but the Lord's prayer is the most prevalent of all the recitations...
As far as someone feeling ostracized because they don't partake, that's their issue. Not mine nor the groups. The program has taught me that my problems are mine, no one else's. How I deal with it determines my outlook/attitude.
Of the 26 regular attendees there are 6 that do not say the "Our father" at closing and they have been attending the meeting longer than I (I've been at this one since I sobered up). I don't know if there was a big hulabaloo about it before I got there but none of them seem to be worse for wear because the don't join in. We all have strong convictions on what we believe to be right and wrong and are usually pretty passionate about it so I would imagine, (knowing this group) that it did come to the fore at some point.
Not knowing what happened there before march of 2002 I cannot say that these things (talkings too, and other forms of irrational behaviour) didn't happen. I can say with all certainty that they haven't since. We vehemently uphold tradition 3 and as such have a wide variety of people from all backgrounds, none of whom want to drink for that particular 24 hours. We respect every individuals beliefs and are accorded the same. Everyone is truly welcome...
Part of why this group is my home group are just these qualities. Is every meeting this way? Certainly not. It would be pretty short sighted and stupid on my part to say that they all are. Just as there are many different flavors of booze, there are many different flavors of people and meetings. It's part of what makes us human... and interesting.
Thanks for bringing this up. I like when somebody makes me think. Reminds me of why I cleared the fog out my head in the first place!
Have a great 24!
TimO
) leads to stagnation but the Lord's prayer is the most prevalent of all the recitations...As far as someone feeling ostracized because they don't partake, that's their issue. Not mine nor the groups. The program has taught me that my problems are mine, no one else's. How I deal with it determines my outlook/attitude.
Of the 26 regular attendees there are 6 that do not say the "Our father" at closing and they have been attending the meeting longer than I (I've been at this one since I sobered up). I don't know if there was a big hulabaloo about it before I got there but none of them seem to be worse for wear because the don't join in. We all have strong convictions on what we believe to be right and wrong and are usually pretty passionate about it so I would imagine, (knowing this group) that it did come to the fore at some point.
Not knowing what happened there before march of 2002 I cannot say that these things (talkings too, and other forms of irrational behaviour) didn't happen. I can say with all certainty that they haven't since. We vehemently uphold tradition 3 and as such have a wide variety of people from all backgrounds, none of whom want to drink for that particular 24 hours. We respect every individuals beliefs and are accorded the same. Everyone is truly welcome...
Part of why this group is my home group are just these qualities. Is every meeting this way? Certainly not. It would be pretty short sighted and stupid on my part to say that they all are. Just as there are many different flavors of booze, there are many different flavors of people and meetings. It's part of what makes us human... and interesting.
Thanks for bringing this up. I like when somebody makes me think. Reminds me of why I cleared the fog out my head in the first place!
Have a great 24!
TimO
Paused
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Aiea, HI
Posts: 23
As far as someone feeling ostracized because they don't partake, that's their issue. Not mine nor the groups.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
This is probably the only aspect of AA that I find offensive. We say that we are not aligned with any 'sect, denomination, politics, or instituion' and then close most of our meetings with the most Christian of all prayers.
And when I point this out most of the christians say 'well nobody is forcing you to say it.' As if that is their idea of being fair and inclusive. The fact is that this program was created in this country which is a Christian country predominately and it is no wonder that a Christian prayer is said at closing. So let us all not be in denial about that. But let us all realize that what Recoveree says is true. The mere fact that most of us say the Lords Prayer is an exclusive act to others who dont believe as we do.
There is a move afoot to remove the Lords Prayer from all meetings. Good luck. If (big if) that happens practically every meeting in the Christian countries will immediately call a group conscience and reinstate it. So AA is stuck with this contradiction. We claim not to be a religion and yet here we are saying the most Christian of all prayers and one you can hear every Sunday in every church across the land.
The only reason I continue to say the Lords Prayer is because I am still willing to go to any length to stay sober and be reasonably happy. Saying the Lords Prayer doesn't hurt me and might help but I use it as a measure of my willingness to continue to do the things that got me sober and keep me sober. It is part of the AA program whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not and so I use it because the program works. If your new to sobriety, get a grip on your sobriety first, then go out and fight the fights that you think need fighting.
God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. now thats a prayer.
Peace everyone
And when I point this out most of the christians say 'well nobody is forcing you to say it.' As if that is their idea of being fair and inclusive. The fact is that this program was created in this country which is a Christian country predominately and it is no wonder that a Christian prayer is said at closing. So let us all not be in denial about that. But let us all realize that what Recoveree says is true. The mere fact that most of us say the Lords Prayer is an exclusive act to others who dont believe as we do.
There is a move afoot to remove the Lords Prayer from all meetings. Good luck. If (big if) that happens practically every meeting in the Christian countries will immediately call a group conscience and reinstate it. So AA is stuck with this contradiction. We claim not to be a religion and yet here we are saying the most Christian of all prayers and one you can hear every Sunday in every church across the land.
The only reason I continue to say the Lords Prayer is because I am still willing to go to any length to stay sober and be reasonably happy. Saying the Lords Prayer doesn't hurt me and might help but I use it as a measure of my willingness to continue to do the things that got me sober and keep me sober. It is part of the AA program whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not and so I use it because the program works. If your new to sobriety, get a grip on your sobriety first, then go out and fight the fights that you think need fighting.
God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. now thats a prayer.
Peace everyone
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Thanks Jay but let me amend myself. I said I found the saying of the Lords Prayer offensive and that is wrong. The prayer itself does not offend me nor do people who say it. I should have said, "This is probably the only aspect of AA that I find OBJECTIONABLE."
Subtle yet overstated....
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: So Chi Hts, IL
Posts: 46
Well said indeed!
After all is said and done, I won't stop or start going to a particular meeting because they do or don't say the lord's prayer. If the meeting is good and helps keep me sober that day, that's all I can really ask for. I do like this topic because it made me really examine my motives behind responding to the posts here and to the question, "Just exactly why DO I join in on the Lord's prayer?"
And Matt V. - we pretty much aren't going to see eye to eye on the whole "ostracized" thing. Our points of view are different and are equally valid to each of us. So we might as well agree to disagree...
Have a good 1/365th !!
TimO
And Matt V. - we pretty much aren't going to see eye to eye on the whole "ostracized" thing. Our points of view are different and are equally valid to each of us. So we might as well agree to disagree...
Have a good 1/365th !!
TimO
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: El Paso, Tx
Posts: 5,862
[i]Originally posted by Ninerfan
The only reason I continue to say the Lords Prayer is because I am still willing to go to any length to stay sober and be reasonably happy. Saying the Lords Prayer doesn't hurt me and might help but I use it as a measure of my willingness to continue to do the things that got me sober and keep me sober. It is part of the AA program whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not and so I use it because the program works. If your new to sobriety, get a grip on your sobriety first, then go out and fight the fights that you think need fighting.
God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. now thats a prayer.
Peace everyone
The only reason I continue to say the Lords Prayer is because I am still willing to go to any length to stay sober and be reasonably happy. Saying the Lords Prayer doesn't hurt me and might help but I use it as a measure of my willingness to continue to do the things that got me sober and keep me sober. It is part of the AA program whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not and so I use it because the program works. If your new to sobriety, get a grip on your sobriety first, then go out and fight the fights that you think need fighting.
God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference. now thats a prayer.
Peace everyone
as the SP states: "accept the things I cannot change..."
It is possible to start your own group, and do it your way.. then I I fear, as Jay stated the structure of the program begins to fragment... okay.. my petty 2 cents.
BTW.. Recoveree.. there are a couple of people who say their own prayer at the close of the meeting here at my group. Not a problem for any of us!
Don't sweat the small stuff! Peace!
Paused
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Aiea, HI
Posts: 23
Re: Well said indeed!
Originally posted by TimOFromChicago
And Matt V. - we pretty much aren't going to see eye to eye on the whole "ostracized" thing.
TimO
And Matt V. - we pretty much aren't going to see eye to eye on the whole "ostracized" thing.
TimO
*Not all, thankfully. Would have made this much harder.
Subtle yet overstated....
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: So Chi Hts, IL
Posts: 46
I hear ya...
I have met the same types of people of which you speak. If that's all I had met, as you said, this would have been incredibly more difficult.
The cadre with which I do my sober stuff are pretty much your typical midwestern rugged individualists. We hate being told anything... (gee and we're stubborn alcoholics, go figure! :p)
With the courage of convictions which you posses you'd fit right in with us! If you're ever around the SouthSide or south suburbs of Chicago gimme a hollar (pm before you leave) if so inclined...
Spirited discourse is one of our favorite before and after meeting activities.
I look forward to your posts as they always make me think!
In fellowship and sobriety,
TimO
The cadre with which I do my sober stuff are pretty much your typical midwestern rugged individualists. We hate being told anything... (gee and we're stubborn alcoholics, go figure! :p)
With the courage of convictions which you posses you'd fit right in with us! If you're ever around the SouthSide or south suburbs of Chicago gimme a hollar (pm before you leave) if so inclined...
Spirited discourse is one of our favorite before and after meeting activities.
I look forward to your posts as they always make me think!
In fellowship and sobriety,
TimO
Paused
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Aiea, HI
Posts: 23
I don't like making back-to-back osts, but the damned software wouldn't let me edit the last one, so...
You said you're a "Midwestern individualist". I'm a hard-headed Yankee. Betcha we could have some fun, eh?
You said you're a "Midwestern individualist". I'm a hard-headed Yankee. Betcha we could have some fun, eh?
Subtle yet overstated....
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: So Chi Hts, IL
Posts: 46
Depending on where you've been...
in your travels through life, we have probably dented some of the same walls with our heads!!
I think we could probably have a grand old time. A "Damn Yankee" (are you a Vermonter to boot?) and a raised on the farm, somewhat citified "Rail Splitter" should make for an interesting mix... Others may run in fear but that's the price we pay... :p
Are you a fan of Mr. SL Clemens by any chance??
T
P.S. I suppose we should probably continue this through pm as our conversation is definitely turning off topic!
I think we could probably have a grand old time. A "Damn Yankee" (are you a Vermonter to boot?) and a raised on the farm, somewhat citified "Rail Splitter" should make for an interesting mix... Others may run in fear but that's the price we pay... :p
Are you a fan of Mr. SL Clemens by any chance??
T
P.S. I suppose we should probably continue this through pm as our conversation is definitely turning off topic!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
[i]BTW.. Recoveree.. there are a couple of people who say their own prayer at the close of the meeting here at my group. Not a problem for any of us!
Don't sweat the small stuff! Peace! [/B]
Don't sweat the small stuff! Peace! [/B]
"Not a problem for any of us!"
Not a problem for me either. But this issue isn't about us. It is more about the newcomer who doesn't understand and because of that might no come back to a meeting.
I'm not sweating. ....And its all small stuff!
Richie
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