Mark75

I read posts from many of the good members here at SR about how AA seems to have lost sight of it's mission, the message gets diluted and how "anything goes" at so many AA groups.

I don't know.

I live in a fairly conservative area of the country, not exactly the bible belt, but still steeped in traditional values... whatever they are... I guess. Mostly solid middle class, mostly blue and some white collar.... and they go to church on Sundays. Slightly older demographic as well.

I don't see a problem with AA where I go. I am not an old timer so I guess, maybe, I only have my own experience.

The groups I attend respect the traditions. People with problems other than alcohol essentially respect the fellowship and limit their shares to those problems as they relate to alcohol. There seems to be an overall willingness to understand and work the program and they enthusiastically become part of the fellowship. There is no shying away from the whole higher power idea, and many make a point to say that they call their HP God. People don't heckle each other and are polite while others share, even if the singleness of purpose gets a bit obscured.... and if that happens, we always have members who bring the discussion away from the mess and back to the message...

Is it possible that where the AA group is and who attends are important and may have to do with what I see as strikingly different experiences within AA... ?

Mark

findingout

Mark,

The meetings I attend here in my little corner of Michigan would seem to match your experience. I don't hear a lot of non-solution based A.A. at these meetings or much sharing on issues outside of alcoholism and recovery through the 12 steps, at least not from people who are regular members of the groups. Of course, I mostly attend only three A.A. groups so this is not a large sample size.

I guess I could go on a hunt for worse meetings to attend so I could experience something different but I think I'll just stick where I am at as it seems to be working.

Tony

CarolD

Hmm....
From '84 to '92 I was active in Washington D.C. AA.
'92 to '98 in Pensacola Fl
'98 to now....a small town near Atlanta.

The size of meetings have varied ...formats differ....accents
and local customs changed.......however

AA was and is strong ...reaching anyone interested
in living our way of recovery

AA group members are responsible for how the group is run.
That is why Traditions are important guidelines.

Forward we go....side by side....

shaun00

to the last question...whom attends and where it is.. .sure 100% in this area anyhow..

i live in the west country of england...pretty conservative ..semi rural but within striking distant of a huge city and a fairly large coastal town.
in and around that coastal town is maybe..8 residential treatment centerers.
addicts and alkies brought in from surrounding areas tend to settle here in apartments or safe houses...

NA is on its knees here and its always talked about with a smirk...the common opinion is.. if your going to NA your going to score drugs...the town area has a huge drug problem....all the people that relapse after treatment tend to hang around...housing is quiet cheap for the UK.

The consequences of that is a weak..(at best) fellowship of AA...Inundated with addicts...with maybe some addict/alcoholics.
i know for a fact that at least two of these treatment centerers encourage drug addicted clients to attend AA and just identify themselves as alcoholics.

and spill there guts about their using...all over alcoholics anonymous.
AA meetings are now run by mostly addicts.....the real alcoholics either dont go or put up with it.

rarely are the steps spoken of........more of a group therapy environment..
repeated war stories....repeated problems.
Dont mention god here or you can hear the uncomfortable shuffle of the bs..."just do meeting brigade"...

its got worse over the few years Ive been sober......
often I'm the only real alcoholic in a room of 50 people....if i can bring myself to go.
i do still go to some..only for the reason my sponsor found me....to look for the suffering alcoholic...

two things i needed to mention now for the record.

i have no problem with addicts...some of my best friends are heroin addicts.
whom use ca...my problem is addicts in alcoholics anonymous..sharing about drugs....sponsoring alcoholics......drinking at weekends because they are not powerless over alcohol.....yet going through the steps with alcoholics.
sorry.....wtf.....its BS.

secondly its a fair comment to say...."hey whiner what you doing about it then".
Ive got 2 meetings off the ground...with a group of buddys.....i cant attend them offen but they function great without me!!!

i also continue to share a solution based message......i continue to look for the suffering alcoholic.....
I'm currently hunting a venue with three other real drunks to open a close meeting of alcoholics anonymous.
maybe even an invite only meeting......who cares what others think..I NEED TO BE AROUND PEOPLE THAT DRANK LIKE ME AND THAT HAVE RECOVERED.
i will be asking shortly for format ideas....so dog...jim stand by.

And lastly yes ....some of the blame lays at the doors of the real alcoholic old timers....that deserted the AA meetings in droves.......and just stay at home and grumble.
Drive out of this county and the good solid AA meetings are out there.
a buddy of mine is gonna introduce me to the meetings in ******* soon so who knows.

sailorjohn

Just my experience, but at the last open meeting of AA I attended, the speaker-who was
from the Flint area, about 90 miles north of here-related his experience at his old home group, his first AA experience.

He was told, and he did, to make coffee and serve the old timers-fetch their coffee, clean up after the meeting-for a year.

Wasn't allowed to speak at meetings, the old timers had assigned seats, early on, he made the mistake of sitting in an old timers chair, another old timer scolded him.

But, they still used the 12 steps-seriously doubt if they would have told someone that didn't identify as an alcoholic to stay-and this guy, who was a real low bottom drunk, is sober today.

Maybe those were the 'strikingly different experiences' you were referring to Mark?

Ananda

AA is what i make of it...i've watched a variety of groups in my area go a variety of ways....i'm mostly into one alchoholic sharing with another their expereince strength and hope in sobriety....anyhow...i just look for what works for me and share what works for me...that to me seems to be fundemental AA as I learned it...if something different is required by others then great..there are a variety of groups available in my area that can meet different personal prefferences for the form that sharing and expereince takes.

What i see on-line honestly doesn't always jive with what i find in my area...and thats fine I think...I need to focus one what is working and what i see working and let go of the comparisons and arguments about what it the "right way"....

anyhow thats it from me

Mark75

No... Since you mention it though, I don't recall anything in the big book about seat assignments... but that's just me... I find humility in God's grace, in working the steps, and being of service to others, in and out of AA...

No John, I was referring to how there are some AAs here, whom I respect, a lot, who seem very disappointed in AA. Their experience doesn't match up with mine... Am I just fortunate with the AA groups I attend? Or... Do I have a different set of expectations, Or... is where I live a factor. Or... what?

Mark

miss communicat

until i'd lived on both coasts for some time, and attended AA consistently in all regions: New York City, LA, New England, Northern California small town, and Seattle I'd never dreamed of AA possibly being significantly different based upon local flavour.

How surprised i was to discover then that, for example in Northern CA, ideologies similar to this prevailed: that all one needed of the 12 Steps were Steps 1 + 11 (because they add up to 12).

Or the permissiveness in Seattle that encouraged members to rewrite the Steps and Traditions as they preferred. ( sorry Jim for taking such a dim view of Seattle AA. I know you are now in Everett, but I believe you came up in seattle)
Then there's always the Freethinkers AA in New York....a veritable pissing contest of intellects, if you ask me.

My point is that, sure. There are geographical, regional flavours that affect AA wherever you go.

In the UK, we served tea rather than the burnt tire brand of coffee (lol)so favoured in most American rooms.

And, that some of these differences are dispersive and diluting to the Primary Purpose of AA. But....its to be expected. We are not all that well coming in and some meetings remain very unrecovered.

What works for me is to keep it simple, stick to THE program and share THAT. And laugh alot about those things I cannot control nor change.

Mark75

Thanx trucker, that's exactly what I was wondering about... Wow, that is BS and would make me very unhappy indeed...

Enlightening...

Thanx again,

Mark

meditation

I live in the Bible Belt Smack Dab.
AA is something else here. At one particular meeting that has no room for time (30 minute meeting) done at rapid fire pace..... fights break out in the parking lot. I don't go because it's way too rough no matter what time of day.

At the most well known AA in town, people share more about problems than solutions.
It is very cliquey.
It is hard to find a good meeting.

keithj

Bit of both, I'd guess.

I read your and others' (like FightingIrish, for example) descriptions, and I think it sounds pretty good to me. You describe most people working steps, sharing experience with the steps and other aspects of alcoholism and recovery.

And I can also relate to a lot of the frustrations and disapointment expressed by others. The meetings are group therapy without a counselor, a bunch of advice giving, here is what I do, more sharing of the problem than the solution.

Are we talking about the same meetings? Is that just perception or is it a real difference?

My perception is skewed. I've read the Gresham's Law article and a lot of the Cliff B. Primary Purpose stuff. I think Chris Raymer makes a lot of sense (though I'm not in love with his delivery). Yeah, my perception is way off. I belong to a book-thumping hard core AA group. More than one person has told me that after showing up at that meeting regularly for a few months, it ruins other meetings for them. They didn't know how bad some of those meetings are until they had something different to compare it with. I think there is some truth in that.

My perception is off, but there is also a real difference in meetings. Bit of both, and I'll try to explain. Most of the meetings in my local area are open discussion. The topic is chosen from a list by someone typically fairly new to the program, who probably is not working the steps. They start the sharing by talking about, I don't know, resentment. They talk about drug court, they talk about how pissed off they are at their family, their PO, whatever. Someone else shares about something that happened to them that week that pissed them off. And it goes round and round, with nearly everyone saying at the end, something about, 'thank god I didn't have to drink over it.' A lot of it is a war story about how they handled resentment when they were drinking and 'glad I don't drink any more'. Nothing in between is given.

At these meetings I hear many people say that they choose not to drink that day, or some variant of 'just don't drink'. I hear solutions like find other ways to fill your time, call somebody when you feel like drinking, exercise more, get a hobby, watch out for people places and things.

So, I contrast that with a solution based meeting talking about resentment. In this meeting, the sharing is about the solution to resentment. Someone will share their experience with how deadly resentment can be, with an example from their life. Someone else will share how they can't wish resentment away. Many will share about inventory with resentment, the root of the problem being self, how we did the things we resented to others, and how to be free of resentment.

At these meetings, I hear solutions from the book, I hear about powerlessness, loss of choice, spiritual awakenings, God, and freedom.

In my town, I have a couple of the best meetings a guy like me could ask for, and some of the worst drivel I can imagine. And many that fall somwhere in between. All of this is according to my opinion and my judgement, right?

Maybe. To each his own, and it sounds like I can pick whatever flavor of AA best suits me. Maybe.

I'm working (or was) with a guy right now. He's been around AA for 10 years, never worked the steps. Likable guy, has some other mental health issues, but we sat down with the book and connected. He clicked with the allergy and obsession ideas, and he had never heard that before. Get it? He's been around AA for 10 years and never heard mention of physical allergy and defenselessness against the first drink.

But this new stuff is a little uncomfortable, or he's off his meds, or whatever, and he drinks and spends a weekend in jail. No big deal, that what alcoholics do. But he doesn't want to work the steps anymore. Instead, he wants to try that 'don't drink one day at a time' thing.

Where did he get the idea of that as a solution to a chronic and hopeless condition, of which he has much experience? He got that idea by listening to it being repeated in AA meetings. The rooms of AA have convinced him that he can just not drink a day at a time. That he can manage his alcoholism by doing that.

It's entirely contradictory to the program of AA. It's a gross failing of AA.

The Big Book tells us that for alcoholics like me, we have two options. It's a binary system. Go on to the bitter end, blotting out the conciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could, or accept spiritual help.

But the rooms of AA have told him there is a 3rd option (or maybe hundreds of options). Just don't drink a day at a time.

So (whew), my perception is that meetings that teach that message suck. Meetings that teach AA's program of recovery are good. One will save your life, and one will keep you drunk. It's just that until I've had experience with the life-saving one, I can't tell it apart from the sucky one.

And I'll add, those meetings here that I love, had to be started by somebody that was dis-satisfied with all the other meetings. They started with about 4-5 people each, and have grown to 25-30 on most nights.

navysteve

AA is just fine folks, don't let the prophets of doom worry you. All of these problems people talk about:

Watered down AA

Lower recovery rates

Corruption

etc...

have all been going on since the dawn of this thing. If anything they serve as more of an example of a loving God to me. This is the only place where the inmates run the show and people continually get better.

We talk about respecting the Traditions. How do you think they got started? There was no planning committee, or Best Practices working group. They were born out of all the mistakes made.

I have heard some of the greatest messages of recovery in some of the sickest, dysfunctional meetings out there.

Bob23

Same here.
The message gets carried by all types of people. It's up to me to look beyond the messenger sometimes.

freya

Interesting timing with this, Mark! Beginning yesterday, my city is hosting some kind of a big conference/workshop for the people who manage and staff local AA offices all over North America.....so, since Tuesday, there have been like lots of out-of-town visitors at meetings.

And some really interesting stuff has been happening...mostly along the lines of people asking the out-of-towners if they want to share and then having them basically explain what's wrong with AA in Rochester.

Now, I've been, so far, to 3 meetings where this has happened (I've got some stuff going on this week that has gotten me to some extra meetings), and I do have to say that no one has been a total *ss about it. But, I also have to wonder what goes on in people's heads when they sit through 3/4 of a meeting where lots of really good -- Step based, solutions oriented -- stuff is said and in which it is clear that lots of people are getting sober and lots of people have been sober for a long time and then feel the need, when called upon, to pontificate, based on their particular "reading" of the Traditions or the literature, about what "true," or "good," or "real," AA is to them.

And it's been particularly interesting that, from what I've heard thus far, each of these self-appointed prophets has received a slightly different "message" as to what "true," or "good," or "real" AA should be, which, for me at least, raises some interesting questions.

Anyways, like I've said, what I've seen so far has all been done without crossing any lines to blatant disrespect or outright rudeness...and the locals have been amazingly good at just "thank-you-for-sharing" it all....but, seriously, what truly happy, joyous, and free person needs to go to a new meeting in a new place looking for "bad AA" instead of being open to seeing and appreciating all the different ways that this design for living can and is working in people's lives?

freya

Sugah

There are twenty-odd groups in my district. Most of them are solution-oriented groups where newcomers are shown love and offered guidance. A couple of groups are dominated by bleeding deacons, and I've visited one that's run more like group therapy than an AA meeting. Overall, we have pretty good AA where I come from. A good number of people stay sober, take the steps, carry the message and participate in group, district and area-level service. We fellowship a lot outside of meetings, too.

I'm grateful.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Music

AA was and is strong ...reaching anyone interested
in living our way of recovery

To me, this is all that counts. People who live AA, work the steps and stick to the traditions. They tend to stay sober and live a more happy and productive life, realizing that fourth dimension of existance Bill referred to. Those who insist on "living our way of recovery" usually don't stay sober. If they do they continue to be miserable: nervous, irritable and discontent. I've asked a few "why stay sober if you're still going to be miserable?" That's not what AA is about. They don't seem to have an answer. People, places and things do make a difference where meetings are concerned, but not where AA is concerned. AA is consistent and it works.

shaun00

i can see how some might think im a phophet of doom steve...

but for me this isnt about traditions.....i dont get into debates about traditions...i end up getting into boring games of symantics...

i dont sit in aa surrounded by addicts thinking about traditions....i sit in aa thinking i cant relate.....i can identify.......i dont know what its like to be addicted to drugs.

im not a thumper......or a step guru......what i dont know...far outways what i do.

but i know one thing.......i need to be around people that drank like me.
i need to connect on a level with these guys that i cant with anyone else.
i also need to work with low bottom drunks like me.

something happened when bill went to see bob..they had no traditions...no book..no meetings.....BUT THEY HAD THAT VITAL CONNECTION...
one drunk sharing with another.
i still believe that to be vital......in my journey anyhow.

just me.

jimhere

No apologies are necessary. I take the same view. There are a few strong groups in Seattle, my old home group being one of them.

Not so here in Everett. Watered-down vanilla-flavored AA lite. You mentioned permissiveness. Here they think that is tolerance. Just feel-good fluffy socisl hour AA.
Jim
JIm

ElegantlyWasted

Hey Mark... Nice post!! Are you in Steinbeckland? I've noticed a huge difference at different locations around the greater metro area where I live. We have specifically branded youth groups that some old timers sneer at. Some meetings are kind of meat marketish and social (a dry happy hour if you will). Others are hit for the side purpose of business networking. I think almost anyone could find a group simpatico with their needs. For variety some go "sluming" to meetings in certain parts of town. My take is that aa like anyother social institution is organic and changes as our collective social norms evolve. I could see this being frustrating for someone without a lot of meetings and social diversity in any given area. Humbly on day 65 this time.

Ago

I whinge a bit sometimes, but the truth of the matter is I've only seen one truly "bad" meeting, it was a tiny town and it was ALL court carders


drove me nuts


I have seen meetings have "bad nights" where you walk out and go "oof" but that happens anywhere

I had no idea how lucky I was to get sober in the San Francisco Bay Area Marin East Bay Fellowships

There are tens of thousands of us and thousands of meetings, ranging in age from 15 years old to guys that got sober and went to meetings with Bill. There are the guys who got in the fist fight with the alkies from New York in the parking lot that founded H and I. We have birthday meetings each week, with 300, 600, and 1000 people attend, where when you walk down the middle of the aisle and the crowd is clapping and cheering it's like an out of body experience.

I walk into any restaurant before a meeting and smile and wave at half the restaurant, if I am with a sponsee they are like, "Jesus Christ, what ARE you guys, like a secret society?"

The steps are worked, fun is had, and there are so many of us that we have our own sense of "community"

All my coworkers were AA, My Girlfriends were AA, all my friends are AA, My clients were AA, and I would see really derogatory remarks about dating people in AA here at SR, the goods were odd etc. I didn't really understand until I traveled a bit. After traveling a bit around the country I now realize that most areas don't have what we have.

Thousands upon thousands of people that got sober in their teens and early twenties that are still sober today, HUGE meetings peopled almost entirely with High School Age kids, working the steps, respecting the traditions.

About 8 months ago I went back to my old home group, Guy named Dr Gil founded it, I had him speak there 35 years later, when I started attending there were 6 of us, that's why I made it my home group, it was small and not part of the circuit.

After a few years there were 20 of us, best. meeting. ever.

So anyway, I was away for a few years, an Old Sponsee was secretary and he invited me to it, he mentioned that there was a lot of kids.

So I was sitting at the coffee shop before the meeting and I overheard these two kids, one was maybe 21-22, the other 17-20 or so, and the sponsee was reading The BB, and the sponsor stopped him, and said WORD FOR WORD what my Grandsponsor had said to me, what his sponsor had said to him, My Grandsponsor had gotten sober in WWII and has been dead for ten years.

I walked over, introduced myself, and in the course of the conversation found out I was 4-5 generations up the sponsor ladder from these kids.

Talk about Goosebumps

AA is fine, I have a hard time not living at home, but I go to meetings and they are fine, I just miss my fellowship, no not of the spirit, I miss my friends, where Bill talks about watching a fellowship grow around you.

Meetings will come, and meetings will go, IMO AA will endure.

Northern Marin has Blue Collar meetings, we call them "The Trudgers", Southern Marins meetings have Porsches, BMW's and Jags, people talk about their feelings, both fellowships overlap. make fun of each other, and both WORK THE STEPS OUT OF THE BOOK.

San Francisco has half a dozen Fellowships at least, I like all of them, sometimes we go periods where a group of us go to a different meeting every week for a few months, it's a total blast

Some of my favorite meetings are deep in the mission district in San Francisco, Gangbangers, Piercings you wouldn't believe, Tattoos where you can't see the persons features, and the most HARDCORE LOVING ASSKICKING SPIRITUAL meetings I have ever seen, where they don't sign court cards, where the secretary will yell at you if you "celebrate" 7 months when he specifically asks for AA recognized Birthdays, 30, 60, 90, 6 mos, 9 mos and EACH YEAR.


Bring up 18 months and you are a dead man, and everyone is ROFLING even the person getting chewed out.

Oakland, Emeryville, East Bay Fellowship does NOT mess around, they are LARGE AND IN CHARGE, and they have FUN, their meetings are awesome.

I have gone to meetings in a few countries over the years, London has Kickass meetings, LA is TOUGH, ....AA is going to be just fine.

If you don't like how AA is working in your area, start some new meetings, I have started a few meetings in my day. make it what you think AA should be. If anyone agrees with you, it will soon be a growing concern.

Like Carol says, meetings start around kitchen tables, and 2-3 of the best meetings in Marin right now started that way within the last few years.

It's hard being without that, I have to admit, it's lonely living in an area without that.

I am spoiled, I just never knew HOW spoiled until I moved away