Some may never get it
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 18,299
I hear people saying that those with depression/mental problems should see a Doctor, AA is for alcoholism, which I agree with but the BB does have an opinion on those with mental problems...that they can recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
On what that opinion was based, who knows.
On what that opinion was based, who knows.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 201
Originally Posted by PaulN 
Sorry to continue the hijacking of your thread Capt., cause I do have some experience there and will share it, but first, I need to get this out.
I don't think the word is scholar, it's practitioner Kurt.
If or when you come to doing the 4th step yourself, feel free to write those scholars names on either the fear page or the resentments page. Or, perhaps, this maybe one of those areas of the book you feel needs re-writing.
Personally (and this is only my opinion here), there's way more responsibility in claiming to be an AA beyond just our 3rd tradition. Little less focus on what's wrong with AA or the BB and little more focus on ourselves ... what do you say Kurt?
I don't think the word is scholar, it's practitioner Kurt.
If or when you come to doing the 4th step yourself, feel free to write those scholars names on either the fear page or the resentments page. Or, perhaps, this maybe one of those areas of the book you feel needs re-writing.
Personally (and this is only my opinion here), there's way more responsibility in claiming to be an AA beyond just our 3rd tradition. Little less focus on what's wrong with AA or the BB and little more focus on ourselves ... what do you say Kurt?
I do relapse, it won't be result of any of the BB scholars, therefore writing their names on a peice of paper won't solve anything.
Actually I won't be silenced. If I think something wrong I will always speak out against it.
The problem with me is I tend focus too much on myself. I think what has helped me is focusing on other people through the charity work I do.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Scholar, practioner semantics aside. Did look at the steps, not for me if
I do relapse, it won't be result of any of the BB scholars, therefore writing their names on a peice of paper won't solve anything.
Actually I won't be silenced. If I think something wrong I will always speak out against it.
The problem with me is I tend focus too much on myself. I think what has helped me is focusing on other people through the charity work I do.
I do relapse, it won't be result of any of the BB scholars, therefore writing their names on a peice of paper won't solve anything.
Actually I won't be silenced. If I think something wrong I will always speak out against it.
The problem with me is I tend focus too much on myself. I think what has helped me is focusing on other people through the charity work I do.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 201
I have edited it, hope it makes more sense Steve
Scholar, practitioner it's just semantics. Did look at the steps, not for me. So I won't be doing the 4th step.
IF I do relapse, it won't be the result of any of the BB scholars, therefore writing their names on a piece of paper won't solve anything.
Little less focus on what's wrong with AA or the BB and little more focus on ourselves ... what do you say Kurt?
Why should I not focus on what's wrong with AA and the BB. If you think that somethings wrong you should always speak out against it.
The problem with me is I tend focus too much on myself. I think what has helped me is focusing on other peoples problems through the charity work I do. So thank you but focusing on myself is what I want to do less of.
Originally Posted by PaulN
Sorry to continue the hijacking of your thread Capt., cause I do have some experience there and will share it, but first, I need to get this out.
I don't think the word is scholar, it's practitioner Kurt.
If or when you come to doing the 4th step yourself, feel free to write those scholars names on either the fear page or the resentments page. Or, perhaps, this maybe one of those areas of the book you feel needs re-writing.
I don't think the word is scholar, it's practitioner Kurt.
If or when you come to doing the 4th step yourself, feel free to write those scholars names on either the fear page or the resentments page. Or, perhaps, this maybe one of those areas of the book you feel needs re-writing.
IF I do relapse, it won't be the result of any of the BB scholars, therefore writing their names on a piece of paper won't solve anything.
Little less focus on what's wrong with AA or the BB and little more focus on ourselves ... what do you say Kurt?
Why should I not focus on what's wrong with AA and the BB. If you think that somethings wrong you should always speak out against it.
The problem with me is I tend focus too much on myself. I think what has helped me is focusing on other peoples problems through the charity work I do. So thank you but focusing on myself is what I want to do less of.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Why should I not focus on what's wrong with AA and the BB. If you think that somethings wrong you should always speak out against it.
Its ok if you don't agree with the Big Book, but why would you go to an AA meeting or post on an AA forum????? I am not religious so I don't go to churches and talk about the discrepancies in the Bible ( as I see them, I may be wrong). To do so would be to invite argument and conflict. I am not afraid of those things either but I don't go seek them out....
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philly and NYC
Posts: 220
This is a clear example of what it says in the Big Book under Spiritual Experience...it quotes Herbert Spencer and the quote is relevant here:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
Before I actually put pen to pad and took action, I had "glanced" at the Steps also for years. It did little good. I too told myself, "this will do little good". I thought I was in a different class of my own. When I put out this erroneous biases I had against something I knew nothing about, I became openminded to the fact that I had never even attempted to give the Steps a chance in my life. I learned that my pre-concieved notions were total BS and what it came down to was I knew absolutely nothing about recovery and that maybe just maybe these first 100 recovered men and women knew what the heck they were talking about. Maybe this God idea works. Luckily I actually got off my rear, stopped pointing out the flaws in the world, stopped "talking about intolerance while I was intolerant myself", stopped worrying about what other people were doing because quick frankly it is none of my business and worked the Steps. As a result I too recovered, a kid who at 19 (when I actually stopped trying to run the show) couldn't go to school, hold a job for longer than a week, couldn't stop think the world owed him something, felt he was wronged, in and out of institutions and halfway houses and couldn't stay sober for a day (both attending and not attending meetings).
Thank God I don't live like that anymore. I have also experienced that simply getting sober is not enough for the true alcoholic. If I honestly thought that simply putting down everything was going to keep me sober I need to be locked up permanently because I was powerless over the decision as to whether or not I was going to drink at any given time. This work is vital as I have also felt suicidal and homicidal sober because now I had no answer to my problems. All I remember was saying to myself that if sobreity was going to be like that, I wanted nothing of it. Fortunately, I found out about the program. I also came to find out that people, place and things weren't my problem. If they were then that would mean I could just put down everything get sober and stay away from the external stuff and live a sober life. Wrong! The biggest trigger for me was everything because I couldn't shut off the biggest one, my head. It all centers in the mind. And if people, places and things were my problem, that means that I am not the problem. An alcoholic who tries this will quickly come to see that this is nonsense. I always, always went searching for it. It didn't come walking up to me and no matter where I went, I couldn't seem to get rid of the problem, me.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
Before I actually put pen to pad and took action, I had "glanced" at the Steps also for years. It did little good. I too told myself, "this will do little good". I thought I was in a different class of my own. When I put out this erroneous biases I had against something I knew nothing about, I became openminded to the fact that I had never even attempted to give the Steps a chance in my life. I learned that my pre-concieved notions were total BS and what it came down to was I knew absolutely nothing about recovery and that maybe just maybe these first 100 recovered men and women knew what the heck they were talking about. Maybe this God idea works. Luckily I actually got off my rear, stopped pointing out the flaws in the world, stopped "talking about intolerance while I was intolerant myself", stopped worrying about what other people were doing because quick frankly it is none of my business and worked the Steps. As a result I too recovered, a kid who at 19 (when I actually stopped trying to run the show) couldn't go to school, hold a job for longer than a week, couldn't stop think the world owed him something, felt he was wronged, in and out of institutions and halfway houses and couldn't stay sober for a day (both attending and not attending meetings).
Thank God I don't live like that anymore. I have also experienced that simply getting sober is not enough for the true alcoholic. If I honestly thought that simply putting down everything was going to keep me sober I need to be locked up permanently because I was powerless over the decision as to whether or not I was going to drink at any given time. This work is vital as I have also felt suicidal and homicidal sober because now I had no answer to my problems. All I remember was saying to myself that if sobreity was going to be like that, I wanted nothing of it. Fortunately, I found out about the program. I also came to find out that people, place and things weren't my problem. If they were then that would mean I could just put down everything get sober and stay away from the external stuff and live a sober life. Wrong! The biggest trigger for me was everything because I couldn't shut off the biggest one, my head. It all centers in the mind. And if people, places and things were my problem, that means that I am not the problem. An alcoholic who tries this will quickly come to see that this is nonsense. I always, always went searching for it. It didn't come walking up to me and no matter where I went, I couldn't seem to get rid of the problem, me.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 201
We have ceased fighting anything...
Its ok if you don't agree with the Big Book, but why would you go to an AA meeting or post on an AA forum????? I am not religious so I don't go to churches and talk about the discrepancies in the Bible ( as I see them, I may be wrong). To do so would be to invite argument and conflict. I am not afraid of those things either but I don't go seek them out....
The only requirement membership is desire to stop drinking Steve
The church and bible don't claim to help and provide a solution for alcoholics, hence I don't go to church.
Also I like how you compare criticizing the big book to criticizing the bible. Yes unfortunately despite the potentially damaging statements in BB, because if its divinity it's untouchable.
Also 12 step treatment is provided in many medical establishments where vulnerable mentally ill people pay big bucks, so I think it should come under the same scrutiny as other services, treatments etc. do in a modern civilised society.
Its ok if you don't agree with the Big Book, but why would you go to an AA meeting or post on an AA forum????? I am not religious so I don't go to churches and talk about the discrepancies in the Bible ( as I see them, I may be wrong). To do so would be to invite argument and conflict. I am not afraid of those things either but I don't go seek them out....
The only requirement membership is desire to stop drinking Steve
The church and bible don't claim to help and provide a solution for alcoholics, hence I don't go to church.
Also I like how you compare criticizing the big book to criticizing the bible. Yes unfortunately despite the potentially damaging statements in BB, because if its divinity it's untouchable.
Also 12 step treatment is provided in many medical establishments where vulnerable mentally ill people pay big bucks, so I think it should come under the same scrutiny as other services, treatments etc. do in a modern civilised society.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
The only requirement membership is desire to stop drinking Steve
The church and bible don't claim to help and provide a solution for alcoholics, hence I don't go to church.
Also I like how you compare criticizing the big book to criticizing the bible. Yes unfortunately despite the potentially damaging statements in BB, because if its divinity it's untouchable.
Also 12 step treatment is provided in many medical establishments where vulnerable mentally ill people pay big bucks, so I think it should come under the same scrutiny as other services, treatments etc. do in a modern civilised society.
The church and bible don't claim to help and provide a solution for alcoholics, hence I don't go to church.
Also I like how you compare criticizing the big book to criticizing the bible. Yes unfortunately despite the potentially damaging statements in BB, because if its divinity it's untouchable.
Also 12 step treatment is provided in many medical establishments where vulnerable mentally ill people pay big bucks, so I think it should come under the same scrutiny as other services, treatments etc. do in a modern civilised society.
By no means do we offer it as the last word on this subject, but so far as we are concerned, it has worked with us
If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience.We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us.
The Big Book is anything but untouchable. In its own pages it tells us that is no Alpha and Omega of recovery from alcoholism.
The church and bible don't claim to help and provide a solution for alcoholics, hence I don't go to church.
despite the potentially damaging statements in BB
The only requirement membership is desire to stop drinking Steve
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,908
Capt,to go to your original post.....I found out about 4 hours ago that one of my nieces ex husband died a week and a half ago.He was bad to drink and do pills.5 years ago he came to some meetings and stopped.
Why he stopped going is unknown.I am not even going to speculate.
He is dead none the less.
I can`t do anything about that.
One thing I can do is try to help those still alive who want it while I can.Thats the most important thing right this minute to me.
Why he stopped going is unknown.I am not even going to speculate.
He is dead none the less.
I can`t do anything about that.
One thing I can do is try to help those still alive who want it while I can.Thats the most important thing right this minute to me.
ZingPsalm 118:24
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
I had to stop and think about how we open our meetings
For those in and out of the rooms, still sick and suffering.
Every day, I wake up with this gift given to me, I clutch it near to me all thru the day.
I go to bed at night and give thanks for the gift.
It's not just the sobriety, it's the serenity as well.
I listened to a guy tonight saying he'd hit a brick wall in his sobriety
Another member had to remind him to trust God, clean house and help others.
How cunning, baffling and powerful a disease this is
For those in and out of the rooms, still sick and suffering.
Every day, I wake up with this gift given to me, I clutch it near to me all thru the day.
I go to bed at night and give thanks for the gift.
It's not just the sobriety, it's the serenity as well.
I listened to a guy tonight saying he'd hit a brick wall in his sobriety
Another member had to remind him to trust God, clean house and help others.
How cunning, baffling and powerful a disease this is
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
This is much like the endless mind game I used to play with myself called the chicken and egg origin of my Alcoholism; am I a genetic or situational mentally handicapped individual first then a Drunk or a Drunk who was damaged mentally by massive intake and unhealthy life choices or a combination of both. In this present life today, it no longer matters which came first; I know for a fact that I am Alcoholic and that I have other mental health issues that will improve or not with my current course of action and belief in a Power greater than I.
In my experience, much of the discussion on this topic tends to move to the ultimate excuse; lack of personal responsibility for past, present or future action due to mental incapacities. If I am mentally incapable, then my past behaviors are not only understandable, but excusable. My present and future opportunities are limited or nonexistent because no one can expect anything from one with my sort of troubles. If I concede to this reference, I am lost forever more.
When I read the first paragraph of Chapter Five in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous one evening in early 1977, I began to believe I might have finally found an answer to my uniqueness as the only person outside of life looking in; I could be Alcoholic, it all fit.
“There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.”
This simple phrase saved my life and opened a new door to living free.
Today, as I meet folks in my daily life, I see many afflicted with the same symptoms I lived with for years; some will never survive the crushing weight of imposed societal integration due in large part to their inability to find a way to live free. Knowing this, I realized that no human can answer for another the “if and when” they will decide to grasp hope and change the things they can. This is an internal process and all of the help in the world or lack thereof will never change it. There is one who has Power…
My role now to the best of my ability is to be available to help those who have the capacity to be honest.
In my experience, much of the discussion on this topic tends to move to the ultimate excuse; lack of personal responsibility for past, present or future action due to mental incapacities. If I am mentally incapable, then my past behaviors are not only understandable, but excusable. My present and future opportunities are limited or nonexistent because no one can expect anything from one with my sort of troubles. If I concede to this reference, I am lost forever more.
When I read the first paragraph of Chapter Five in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous one evening in early 1977, I began to believe I might have finally found an answer to my uniqueness as the only person outside of life looking in; I could be Alcoholic, it all fit.
“There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.”
This simple phrase saved my life and opened a new door to living free.
Today, as I meet folks in my daily life, I see many afflicted with the same symptoms I lived with for years; some will never survive the crushing weight of imposed societal integration due in large part to their inability to find a way to live free. Knowing this, I realized that no human can answer for another the “if and when” they will decide to grasp hope and change the things they can. This is an internal process and all of the help in the world or lack thereof will never change it. There is one who has Power…
My role now to the best of my ability is to be available to help those who have the capacity to be honest.
KCB.com/justfortoday :-)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 168
I was at a fantastic meeting where one of our old timers was saying something about this very subject and I thought about you guys when he said it. I'm paraphrasing but this is pretty much what he said,
"Some people...will never get the privilege of AA. It wasn't up to me to get to these meetings I believe that I was chosen by a Higher Power. There are some people who are still out there performing and will always be that way. I can plant a seed but it's up to me to carry the message and not the alcoholic. It's none of my business really who gets here. All I can do is be the type of person this program allows me to be and hope that others will follow."
I loved what he had to say - my argument only is that if God hasn't chosen certain people then why not - isn't he an all loving God? But then I think that if you believe in a Higher Power you have to believe in a lower power. We are not robots and God gave us the freedom of choice.
I continue to pray for the still suffering alcoholic and I thank you Captain Zing for this thread as it has maybe made a lot of people start to pray for the performers out there. You're a fab example and an inspiration in my sobriety xxx
:praying
"Some people...will never get the privilege of AA. It wasn't up to me to get to these meetings I believe that I was chosen by a Higher Power. There are some people who are still out there performing and will always be that way. I can plant a seed but it's up to me to carry the message and not the alcoholic. It's none of my business really who gets here. All I can do is be the type of person this program allows me to be and hope that others will follow."
I loved what he had to say - my argument only is that if God hasn't chosen certain people then why not - isn't he an all loving God? But then I think that if you believe in a Higher Power you have to believe in a lower power. We are not robots and God gave us the freedom of choice.
I continue to pray for the still suffering alcoholic and I thank you Captain Zing for this thread as it has maybe made a lot of people start to pray for the performers out there. You're a fab example and an inspiration in my sobriety xxx
:praying
Psalm 118:24
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Free will is a powerful thing. Each day everyone wakes up out of bed, we're given free will to do as we wish this day.
The difference in my life now, a glad heart of being free of alcohol and drugs.
I get a new lease on life every day. Some may never get past their past behavior.
I'm just glad, I no longer am so miserable with life, I want to remain in a virtual fog each day
The difference in my life now, a glad heart of being free of alcohol and drugs.
I get a new lease on life every day. Some may never get past their past behavior.
I'm just glad, I no longer am so miserable with life, I want to remain in a virtual fog each day
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