Wholesome

Thanks for pointing out my AV Algorithm. IT seems to just love these ideas of tests and challenges! I guess I'm reading things and IT's reading along with me and drawing parallels that aren't accurate and latching on to them and I don't see it. Years of battling addiction has also permeated my thinking with AA ideas of one decision at a time type thinking. Endless tests to be passed or alternatively failed. That sounds exhausting. I don't want that. Like IT's trying to get past the idea of forever with ideas of an endurance test. I've got to stay aware of that. I always like your posts, they are like an arrow straight to the bullseye!

Algorithm

Yes, your Beast can read along with you, and IT will latch on to anything that keeps ITs eternal hope for another drink alive. Your Beast loves to fuel up on the uncertainty principle, and to 'upgrade' ITs barking software, the Addictive Voice, by borrowing and incorporating ideas from others that support the possibility of drinking some more alcohol.

There is much for your Beast to borrow, the most appealing of which is the idea that drinking is a symptom that cannot be addressed directly, and which 'just happens' unless prevented indirectly. AVRT is a self-aiming weapon, however, and will identify any ideas which suggest the possibility drinking some more alcohol as AV, regardless of the source.

soberlicious

Yes! There is but one decision that supports your decision to quit drinking and that is...not drinking ever again! That decision only needs to be made one time.

Decisions that make my life better like strengthening relationships with family, being with friends, engaging in hobbies, learning new things, excelling it my career - these things aren't done to "keep me from drinking". They are done to make my life better. If I didn't do any of them, I still wouldn't drink because that decision has been made.

I can:
a) choose to make my life as pleasant as possible
b) do nothing and have a mediocre existence
c) make poor decisions and have a drama filled unpleasant life.
In all three scenarios, my commitment to permanent abstinence remains the same. That commitment doesn't hinge upon a, b, or c.

Wholesome

I was at a dinner party this evening where I was the only person abstaining and I felt totally secure and at ease. That really is the beauty of AVRT. It cuts through those ideas of triggers and HALT and white knuckling. There was a small moment when they were pulling out bottles they'd brought back from Mexico where my AV pipped up. But I simply recognized it for what it was and moved on. It doesn't matter what my relationship with God is or if there even is one. It doesn't matter what my relationship with myself is like or what character defects I may or may not have. It doesn't matter what has happened in the past. I don't need anything but my BP and my recognition that anything at all that deviates from my BP is AV and therefore a mote point to be ignored. It's so empowering and freeing! I find that it inspires me in other areas of my life like you mentioned soberlicious although like you said whether I make other positive changes makes no difference at all when it comes to my decision to leave drinking in my rear view mirror.

Fusion

It is indeed empowering and freeing, Zenchaser. Once I'd thrown my overused mantle of "I'm Tatsy and I'm an alcoholic" and made a BP and practiced AVRT, I found true freedom, not a continuing life sentence.

Having accepted that I do not drink alcohol and will never drink again, I'm liberated to pursue actions, activities, pastimes, hobbies and plans, to enrich my life. But, even if none of those actions succeed in enriching my life, it matters not, because I'm a non-drinker (not ex-drinker, I see no reason why my past should define my future) and that fact is not conditional or contingent upon anything.

Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired......etc., so what? They are all normal feelings, emotions and sensations that we experience as part of being human. Of course the AV will try to use H.A.L.T. against me, occasionally by raising little cravings and suggesting that drinking would fix or satisfy those feelings. But once I learnt AVRT and made my BP, I became wise to it's ways and focused my mind's spotlight on the autonomous lower brain and its AV, thereby rendering the AV as powerless.

I am Tatsy and I'm a non-drinker and securely abstinent.

Wholesome

What I find kind of ironic is that the problems were a symptom of the drinking rather than the drinking being a symptom of the problems. I may have started drinking for certain reasons but those reasons are ancient history. Once I got addicted I drank because I was addicted. Maybe I'm wrong about this, I feel like my mind is just coming back to life and I'm aware that I still get confused. I feel like now that the drinking is over I naturally want to address the issues I created with the drinking. Now that I've removed that self imposed barrier I'm free to expand in other areas of my life.

Algorithm

Careful, there. Your Beast may be trying to manufacture a contingency, by suggesting that there needs to be an absence of reasons to drink in order to abstain. What if those original reasons for starting drinking were not ancient history, or if they were to return someday? What then? Would you drink?

The Beast wants to survive, by preventing ITs own death by starvation. The idea that the consumption of ITs precious survival stuff is a symptom of some other malady, preferably an intractable one, is pristine Addictive Voice. What better way for the Beast to ensure an endless supply of drinks for itself than to re-frame the drinks as a symptom, and to convince ITs host to try anything and everything except for actually cutting off the supply forever?

Wholesome

Yeah I hear you Algorithm. I'm in therapy to deal with some of my ancient history, although sometimes I question the point. I mean I can talk a thing to death, it doesn't change that it happened.

Kind of brings me to another thing I've been thinking about, resentments. Who can go through their life without them? I've got a ton of them. I resent my parents, my ex husband, God for taking my nephew, the company I work for, the government, the war machine, that I'm always broke even though I work my butt off.... the list could go on and on. So what? Life ain't fair, so there. Things aren't always going to go your way and the world doesn't owe you one damn thing. If I had to wait until all of those resentments were healed I'd never be ok. This idea that if you don't deal with your resentments you are doomed to drink is hogwash. It's called being alive. Adversities are part of a person's evolution, they are unavoidable, and it's perfectly natural to resent mistreatment and inequality or just plain bad luck. At least that's my opinion.

dwtbd

The AV may well ring in with the flip side of Algo's argument.
"It's been quite awhile , that abstinence thing really put the kebash on that downhill slide. Had a bunch of time to work on those 'issues', you know the ones that may or may not have contributed to the abusing thing, the you know self medicating thing. Which is good , coz you know now the abusing, addiction thing is probably a way way more remote possibility. Lets chalk all that up to emotional /chronologic immaturity , the 'ism'' is gone, you conquered all the causes, besides even if it goes sidewides a little , look at what you have learned"

Wholesome

Yeah mine uses that one too. You matured out of drugs so give it some more time you will mature out of drinking too. You can keep it to just the weekends and that's no big deal. You are in a better place emotionally than you were back then so it's fine, go for it. You can just do it when you go out with friends, but never home alone anymore. You can just do it when the kids go to their dads. Blah blah blah.

Algorithm

This is very true, since the AV will argue both sides of all arguments in order to try and justify drinking some more alcohol. Re-framing the drinking as merely a symptom of some other unrelated malady provides plenty of ammunition from either side. It is a very alluring premise for the Beast to borrow and incorporate as an 'upgrade' to the Addictive Voice.

dwtbd

IT can and will argue any and all sides of any situation, the laser like focus and ultimate logic of the BP means it's all for naught.
In reality there is no' side', because the choice has been removed, irrevocably , poor dumb beast.

Wholesome

That's the beauty and simplicity of it right there.

Centered3

Alcohol is what we used to try to cure our alcohol-ism.
It's all about the "ism".

And it doesn't matter if we used alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling, pot, food, other people, shopping, work, porn... it's all the same "ism".

The "ism" is that we had an incorrect reaction to people and life, and an incorrect perception. We wanted people to act the way we wanted them to act, we lied to ourselves and to others, we did things to try to get our way or did things when we didn't get our way, and we ran on self-centered fear.

Take away the alcohol or fill in the blank, and we're left with the "ism". The solution to the "ism" is the 12 steps in the big book.

Alcoholism is a disease. It's a mental illness. Anyone who does stuff out of compulsion and obsession to hurt themselves with whatever substance or behavior, has a mental illness. Sucks to admit but the truth will set you free.

That all being said, I found that once I stopped focusing on the "ism" and focused on recovery, I got healthier and things looked different.

Wholesome

Hi Centered, the solution for some people may be in the BB but I didn't find it in there. AA made me feel worse. Nothing made me want to drink more than going to an AA meeting.

I don't agree with turning over my will to God or to the group. I don't believe that I inherently lack morals but I now believe that consuming more alcohol despite knowing how it has wreaked havoc in my life is immoral. With that act of drinking taken out of the equation, I find I am naturally a moral, kind person with principles. There is no need to further debase myself with inventories about how awful I am and confessions to strangers of my most private hurts and darkest moments.

I don't want to form a subordinate relationship with a person who is no better equipped to manage their life than any stranger I might meet on the street. I used to drink, drinking did not turn me into a child who isn't capable of managing my own life. If I need a life coach I will find one who has had some formal training, like a therapist.

I don't agree with the AA method and frankly, think it's the opposite of self-help. I don't have a disease and I don't need a spiritual awakening to decide to stop pouring alcohol down my throat. Maybe if I was already religious it would make some kind of sense to me, maybe. But I doubt it. I just can't wrap my head around the concept that God can cure me. God didn't make me drink. I did. The buck stops with me.

But hey I appreciate that there are many roads to recovery and what is right for one isn't right for another. And sorry I don't mean to AA bash too much, it was just my personal experience. I get that those who it works for credit it with saving their lives and I think it's fantastic if it worked for you! I really do.

soberlicious

No.

Indeed you are correct. The truth for me was that I had better quit - not for a day at a time, but for good. The truth for me was that my abstinence best not be tenuous.

Permanent. No matter what. Hell or high water. That truth has set me free for realz.

Thank you for joining the convo and sharing about your "ism". I don't have one, so it's always interesting to me to hear about others who do.

Madnellie

I am in AA and I find it suits me and has helped me greatly. That being said, when I read about some people's experiences I can see why they would be put off for life. I also like to read up on other programs for recovery - AVRT is something I have found immensely helpful, but again it's not going to be for everyone.
My personal belief is that my alcoholism isn't the issue, it's my solution to the issue, that's it's not the disease, but my attempt at a cure. I don't believe that being an alcoholic is a choice any more than getting diabetes or cancer is a choice but I DO believe that I have the choice not to pick up that first drink and give in to it.
At the end of the day we're all on different yet equally valid paths to the same destination, I don't really care too much for labels.

Centered3

If alcohol or whatever substance/behavior is someone's problem and not their solution to their problem, then they are not a real alcoholic suffering from alcoholism. With a real alcoholic, alcohol (or fill in the blank) was a solution to our "ism".

AA was originally created by and for people who suffer from alcoholism, not for people whose lives get better when they just stop drinking and go to meetings. The real alcoholic gets worse when they just stop drinking and go to meetings. The real alcoholic gets better when they work the 12 steps to God of their own understanding. This isn't my opinion. It's a shared experience from those suffering from alcoholism.

Centered3

Originally Posted by Centered3
Sorry you disagree but it's a fact, ask any therapist or real alcoholic. You say you're not an alcoholic so how can you say that I'm incorrect when I say that alcoholism is a mental illness? How can you disagree with something you have zero personal experience with?

If a person keeps putting alcohol which is a poison in their body that hurts them and can kill them, that's mental illness. If a person who loves their spouse and children more than anything else in the world, and they swear with every cell in their being that they don't want to drink again, but they drink because of an obsession, compulsion, and physical allergy beyond their control, then this is a mental illness.

Listen to Peter M, AA circuit speaker--he explains this best. So does Joe Hawk.

We in AA say "a day at a time" to keep things simple. It took me a long time to understand this and not complain about "you mean I can never have another drink, ever?!?!" Keeping it simple helps greatly.

It took me over a decade to understand what the "ism" really is. I thought it was just about drinking........

Wholesome

What I find so disagreeable and dangerous about AA is this message that anyone who gets sober without AA and rejects their dogma is not a "real" alcoholic. Also that there is something wrong with people who AA doesn't work for, they are one of these "unfortunates", instead of there being something wrong with the steps and the AA institution itself. What a terrible message to send to people suffering from alcoholism that there is something wrong with them on a moral and spiritual level if the steps don't work for them. Perhaps people don't get better quitting drinking and attending meetings because it doesn't make sense to be praying away their desire to drink. Perhaps it's because they are told that they are flawed and made to become reliant on outside powers to maintain their commitment to sobriety. They are told that unless they control their resentments and their hunger and loneliness and connection to the group and to God then they are in constant peril of picking up a drink. No wonder why it doesn't work for so many people. There are so many mixed messages and it's so fear based.