scottmandue

I'm also not trying to stir the pot but after giving this thread a lot of thought.
How is IT/AV/Beast in AVRT any different that "the Id"?
"According to Freud, we are born with our Id. The id is an important part of our personality because as newborns, it allows us to get our basic needs met. Freud believed that the id is based on our pleasure principle. In other words, the id wants whatever feels good at the time, with no consideration for the reality of the situation."

Wholesome

An addiction is something we do to ourselves not something we are born with.

LadyBlue0527

That may be true and may not be true, who knows? What I can tell you is this.

I was adopted at birth, so was my brother who is 11 years older than me. We were adopted into a family where there was rarely alcohol at home. It was only kept for those occasions when relatives came over during a holiday. I was given all the things you could give a child to succeed in life. I had violin lessons, dance lessons, I was in chorus and drama club. My parents were old school, with proper values. They also had a love for eachother that you would rarely witness. I don't think I ever saw my mother drink. My father would maybe have a beer when he was working on the camp and maybe a few at a wedding. That was it. Neither my brother nor I ever witnessed alcohol fueled negative events.

Both my brother and I know who our biological families are (we found out later in life) and both families are alcohol and drug laden. Both my brother and I are alcoholics. Coincidence? Maybe.

What speaks to me though is this. When I was 8 years old a relative had a little dixie cup of whiskey. She was swishing it around in her mouth as instructed by the dentist to help numb her tooth and also as an antiseptic. Anyway, she set the cup on the table after she took what she needed and walked away. Curious me picked up the cup and looked at it. It looked like creme soda which was my favorite. I decided to take a sip. I was displeased by the burn I felt but a few moments later I wanted MORE. It was a need, not a want. I picked up the cup and my cousin spotted me and took it away. I will never forget that first sip. I thought about it often. I was EIGHT.

When I was 12 years old there was a bottle of Boone's Farm that was sitting under the cupboard. One of the relatives had brought it over and didn't end up drinking it. I was in the kitchen alone and decided to pull that bottle out and try it. I pulled that cap off and took a sip, took the cap back on and put it away. I almost immediately felt that same MORE feeling I had when I was 8. I listened to make sure my mother wasn't coming and pulled the bottle back out, yet another sip, ok, maybe a gulp. I did this for the next 10 minutes. I couldn't walk away. Before I knew it I had polished off almost half the bottle. Then, something weird began to happen. My heart started to pound and I felt dizzy. Yes, even at 12 I was that naive. I had no idea that alcohol created an "effect". I just knew that I wanted MORE. I went into my bedroom and laid down, frightened by what I was feeling. I finally got scared enough to call my best friend. I'll never forget this call. I'm sure I was slurring my words. I asked "Terrrrrrrrry, what is wronnnnnnnng with meeeeeeeeee?" and she asked back "What have you been drinking?" I asked her how she knew. Seriously, I had no idea and there was no connection for me that there was a goal to feel differently when people drank. Dumb maybe but that speaks to the absence of alcohol and it's effects being in my life before that point.

I'm not going to say this is the case for everyone but I've heard from many how even with that first sip they felt that same "MORE". I felt it at the tender age of 8. I had no problems in life, a good family, love abound, nothing out of the ordinary had ever struck me. Yet still, from the first moment that I tasted that sip and swallowed I had the phenomenon of craving.

There has to be some biological wiring that comes in there somewhere. I believe this to be the reason I have friends who can drink heartily who have never had an issue with alcohol and wouldn't think twice about when the next one was coming and me, who grinded, planned, waited, shifted things, and tried time and time again to protect my ability to continue. Even after the most heinous things happened until there was no other answer outside of the fact that I was done.

I had no where with all at the age of 8 to see the future. I did not take that sip due to any problems I had in my life. I thought it was creme soda. Why is it that I felt the phenomenon of craving when others in the same situation would have spit it out? There has to be something biological at work.

Wholesome

Hi LadyBlue. I agree that a person can be genetically predisposed to alcoholism, my sister didn't get IT whereas I did and we both come from a family riddled with alcoholics. I don't believe that anyone can be born with an Addictive Voice though, which is what I was replying to in scottmandue's post. An AV is something that is born in the mind after repetitive use of a substance and the brain starts to see it as a NEED for survival. Saying that a person can be born set up to be an addict is the kind of fatalistic gloom and doom nonsense of the Addictive Voice. The AV loves for us to feel like we have no choice and that we will always use and feed that NEED. You or I may have had the deck stacked against us when it came to becoming addicts but we none the less made repetitive choices to pick up those drinks and pour them down our throats, my ancestors didn't make me do that, I did.

dwtbd

I'd say I was born a boozer, booze hound, intoxication enthusiast. The first time I had the opportunity to drink , it was like I found nirvana. I ended up blacking out and had a rough few days after, but I was astounded that more people weren't more drunk more of the time. I was a 'partier', never served me well , but for too much of my life I decided it was worth it . Until finally, finally I decided it was no longer worth it , the costs too obvious in mind ,body and soul. That's when I started learning about addiction , I was ready to be done, wanted to be done , but for whatever reasons couldn't quite get to being done.
I don't think I was born addicted , I know I wasn't, even when I experienced that special , deep pleasure feeling of intoxication I didn't want to stop . My Beast was definitely born of the intoxication and I allowed it to reign, but it wasn't until I decided to quit , for good, that permanent abstinence was the goal and decided I was capable of achieving it , did I 'see' the Beast and hear Its bark, the AV.
There were glimpses of IT through the years, the times when I would 'take a break' ' slow down , a little ' 'try and get it under control' , but IT remained clouded by the idea that at sometime I would drink again, just 'better'.
I think if I were born with addiction, I'd still have it, but I don't , I don't indulge the desire for alcohol anymore . I do now still have IT, the Beast , the desire , but I've since realized that the desire notwithstanding not consuming alcohol is simple, you just don't put it in your mouth, ever. The most shocking thing is that I actually prefer abstaining from self intoxication, it took 30 years to realize just how much it's not worth it, and maybe 25 years to actually see what it costs.

Awake61

Beautifully said.

Wholesome

Totally dwtbd! That idea that if I could just get it right, if I could just control IT is so hard to break through! It took me years to accept that it had to be over, not just for today, but forever. I can still feel my AV like a worm in my brain trying to tell me to try it again, this time it will be different, it won't get out of control like it did in the past...... No. No. NO. The very fact that IT's there sending me these messages despite all the evidence to the contrary is the reason that I can never drink again. But I was not born this way. My children are certainly not doomed to be drunks because I was. I reject the idea in its totality. We always have the choice of free will. We can always choose the higher path.

LadyBlue0527

Whatever you need to believe in, if it keeps you sober and genuinely happy about it that's a huge positive.

JeffreyAK

I'm not sure what an "ism" is, or even what we mean when we talk about "disease". That's the problem with semantics, we'd have to agree on what we're using for a definition before we can debate whether or not something does or doesn't fit the definition, and that almost never happens.

I don't think of alcohol addiction as a disease, personally, but it's certainly a medical condition with many consistent medical symptoms and signatures, for example in brain imaging. I think of it more like poisoning, or sensitization - drink too much, too often, and you'll change the chemistry of your brain until it adapts to your now-nearly-constant pickled state. Take away the alcohol, and you go through withdrawal, which again has consistent medical symptoms. It's maybe not far from something like beryllium sensitization, which is a kind of allergy caused by repeated exposure to beryllium. Once you are sensitized, you need to stop the exposure permanently, or bad things (chronic beryllium disease) will happen.

And certainly there is abundant medical evidence that there is a genetic factor in determining whether or not you, as a regular heavy drinker, will become an addict. It does tend to run in families, though not always.

Does all this make it a disease? You get to decide, since we haven't defined the word.

Wholesome

Jeffrey the ism is the Internal Spiritual Malady talked about in AA. The ISM is what causes their disease and the solution is to get right with the Lord and pray for divine intervention for a daily reprieve from wanting to drink through working the steps. It's all explained previously in the thread. As you know in AVRT there has to be a deprogramming from convention recovery methods as there is a lot of Institutional Addictive Voice throughout them. When I started this thread a few months ago that is what I was doing, examining some of these messages and rejecting them as contrary to my beliefs about my addiction to alcohol.

JeffreyAK

That's fine for them, it it works for them, though it's not consistent or supported by evidence beyond anecdotal personal stories. Which, again, is fine if it works, same with other recovery approaches that are no less unscientific or dogmatic. Sometimes we need a piece of wood to grab onto, at least until we're strong enough to swim off on our own.

Gottalife

ISM for me could have meant "incredibly short memory", in the context that my memory was the most ineffective defence against the first drink. Just minutes after major consequences of drinking, I would be heading back to the bar, looking to have a good time, the memory of just a few minutes ago having completely gone.

freshstart57

The past drinking and addiction history is not relevant in the AVRT paradigm, nor is the future despite the common wording of the Big Plan - I will never drink again and I will never change my mind. For me, the action of the Big Plan is always in the present. I will never now drink. Will I drink now? Nope, it's now. Ok, then, says the AV, How about now? Nope, cause it's still now. What about sometime in the future? When that time comes, it will be now again, so, nope.

I would have failed too if I relied on my past drinking experiences for motivation to quit. These experiences are really irrelevant as memory is changeable and conditional on present experience. The Big Plan of AVRT is not either of those.

Does this lack of ISM in my experience mean I did not have alcoholism?

LadyBlue0527

zenchaser, I respect your views and you and I have had some great discussions through PM, none meant to inflict our view on each other, but a great, intelligent, honest and open discussion. I thoroughly enjoy doing that, it's food for the mind and how we learn and grow which should never stop, no matter the age and experience.

But............that statement. It's the reason people conjure images in their mind about the premise of the program and make the decision it's not for them. It breeds contempt prior to investigation. Do some groups seem to exude this? Sure, as do some people.

I can speak firsthand that it did not "get me right with the Lord". Rather, it helped me to perceive my personal spirituality based on my own beliefs and to live a better life. The word "God" is used only because it's a reference to our own higher power. It's a man made word. What else are you going to call it? When I pray and meditate on a daily basis it has nothing to do with asking "the Lord" to give me a reprieve from drinking. My focus is on getting out of my own head and understanding my purpose here. My usefulness. You could call it a daily Chakra alignment, you could call it practicing Synergy. I am not a religious person, but I have rediscovered my spirituality in a way I didn't think was possible.

It's positive energy at it's finest. I'd rather spend my energy in that way rather than feeding or renting any brain space to something that focuses on negative energy because, the less I feed negativity, the less I want to drink.

So, no, AA is not about "getting right with the Lord". It's about getting right with one's self and releasing all the negative energy we store throughout our years. It's about prayer and daily meditation based on that own individual's beliefs of what their higher power is.

We "look to" we don't "fight against".

Again, to each their own, if you're sober and happy then who cares?

Wholesome

Hi LadyBlue. I'm sorry that you didn't like my statement but AA is a religious program based on spiritual healing. I know they say one can interpret God however they like but it's origins are in Christianity and they mean the God from the bible who is often called Our Lord. It's about finding religion. Here is an article from Toronto where I live about an AA group trying to distance themselves from the religious aspect and how AA fought them over it. Basically the message is that you can interpret God however you want as long as you interpret it as God.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle33920196/

It bothers me that this religious entity has taken over our society the way that it has. You can't watch a tv show or movie about someone having an addiction problem without the solution being about going to meetings. It can be court ordered. It's throughout rehab programs. And it's about spiritual healing. I have a problem with that. In today's multicultural, scientific, digital age I find it outrageous that religion is pushed on people to solve their problem of liking to get f*cked up on substances.

LadyBlue0527

I'm sorry that this bothers you zen, I really am.

I find it hard to read the generalities that are spoken of in AA and if I offended you I apologize, that wasn't my goal. AA being religiously based has not been my experience. Have I attended groups that appeared to be attempting to make it that? Sure. Have I met people who are attempting to do that? Absolutely. No one has pushed anything on me, everything I've been told has been a suggestion based on that person's experience. Where it may appear religiously based it is going to be whatever someone makes of it. I choose not to see it as religious. You can link me to any article available that says different. What does it matter? I revel in what I've found. If others don't want it that's their choice.

I've never felt a need to speak against anyone's choice of program or their interpretation of it. Or sober tools. I don't need to because I'm secure and happy with my own choices.

Wholesome

LadyBlue you have in no way offended me. I am confused though about how you could think that AA is not religious? By their own admission they are based on spiritual healing. God is mentioned over and over throughout the steps and in the BB. None of my criticisms are against anyone personally, my statements are about the AA program itself, it goes against my own sensibilities. I find the idea of powerlessness, ism's, and turning to God to cure me of wanting to stop self intoxicating offensive to my innate power of free will and thought. No matter how people try to water down the message or change their interpretations of the program God and the Christian religion remain at the heart of it. Again this is not about individuals but the program itself and how it has spread throughout society.

Wholesome

http://www.generationscc.com/Website...comparison.pdf

LadyBlue0527

I don't know zenchaser, perhaps it could come down to my interpretation I guess.

To me religion denotes following "one" defined higher power. Rituals, rules, and regulations, and even pictures (who in the Catholic faith has not had the picture of Jesus hanging on the wall at their grandparent's house?). In other words, what we are taught as children as to who God is. It's a preconceived notion and exists in almost every religion down to the buildings we visit to show our respect and the words we use that incite the name we've been taught in the preconceived notion of God. Again, I use the word "God" loosely here because that's nothing more than three letters that were created by man that are strung together to produce a sound from our mouths. This to make a reference that can be understood by each other when speaking. No different than when we say "apple" and our heads automatically receive the image of the red fruit off the tree.

Spirituality, and again, my opinion, is something that runs far deeper than any number of letters strung together could accurately communicate. But how can you help to explain that to someone without using words? You can't. However, in working the steps, and probably when I began to do the turnarounds in step 4 did I even begin to remotely understand true spirituality. For the first time I was taking a good long look at myself. I've always thought myself to be a very caring and giving person. This is not to say I'm not but I was really surprised, when I took an honest look at myself, just how much of that caring and giving had an underlying motivation of looking for something for "me". To learn from that and to remove any expectation of my actions and to do things strictly from the heart is one of the most freeing experiences I've ever had. To learn that life is not all about me (which I would have never thought could ever be said about me) is just as freeing. It's a very spiritual experience to learn to let go. It's far above and beyond righting myself with the word God or Lord and praying to a preconceived notion on a daily basis. I feel one with this universe now. I feel a great sense of purpose. What that purpose is I'm not quite sure of but the fact that I feel one is deeply spiritual. I don't visualize a deity, there is nothing tangible with what "I understand" to be this power. It's a feeling, something I've never had before. Through that and through working the steps when any ounce of negativity arrives into my mind it's realized, analyzed for what it is, and then either dealt with or discarded. FREEDOM.

Will everyone experience this? Maybe not. But, it draws me back to why I responded to your post in the first place. When I read your original thought I admit it irritated me. Then I thought about it and asked myself why. I mean, you and everyone else has a right to an opinion. Is what you're saying true? Yes, AA would appear to go down the road of religion but it all depends on the group you find, the people you listen to, and your sponsor. If you are able to find the right path in AA then hopefully the experience will be what I described. Then again, who am I to say what each person's understanding will be? It will be whatever they decide to make it. I know that for the first time in my life I wouldn't want to touch a drop of alcohol. Not because I think someone will be mad. Not because I think there's someone up in the sky looking down at me and watching me. It's because I would not want to spend even one moment dulling what I feel now.

So, in totality I look at that quote and I think of someone who would consider AA and how they would run fast and far. I don't think it's a fair precedent to set. Just as I would never tell someone that maybe AVRT isn't for them. I support all programs and tools. If it works for you, fantastic!

I just get a little disheartened when I see descriptions like yours because I think of those reading them and shake my head thinking "If you could only see what I see". I understand that you've tried AA and it's not for you, but what's in it for you to speak negatively of it to others? That's the part I don't get.

Wholesome

what's in it for you to speak negatively of it to others? That's the part I don't get.

Are you trying to shame me into silence? Nothing is personally against you and I'm not trying to convert you to my way of thinking. I am talking to the scores of people who don't get AA and who can't swallow the God/religious dogma of it. The ones who are seeking an alternative. I have already said that this thread is about questioning AA's messages and rejecting them. AA works for a small minority of people..... the vast majority run away and don't look back, yet our highest institutions have adopted it and it's puritan Christian dogma. What do I get out of it? I get to be the voice of dissent.