JeffreyAK

It's interesting to me, as an atheist who escaped from alcohol addiction on a strictly secular path, that some of the most dogmatic and angry former addicts tend to be on some of those secular paths. Maybe not so much SMART, but certainly RR and LSR are famously orange-papers-esque for railing against 12-step programs, and RR in particular is famous for railing against everything that isn't RR. I understand it to a point, I was angry about being pushed into 12-step programs when I was a drunk, but that anger sometimes seems to persist for many years, and even become a kind of power storehouse of it's own. Just an observation, I don't really understand it, or maybe I've just forgotten. I think it's so much simpler and empowering to live and let live.

LadyBlue0527

No, I'm asking you a question. I don't support rendering anyone silent. That's not a useful way to spend time. I seriously wanted to know why the need. You answered by stating you get to be the voice of dissent. Fair enough.

In finality, what Jeffrey said about live and let live expresses my point of view on the subject.

Wholesome

Frankly I don't know how Jeffrey can say what he said and also say that he uses AVRT. I really don't get it, part of AVRT is recognizing the AV riddled throughout AA. Makes zero sense to me, but whatever.

LadyBlue0527

Are you stating that part of the foundation of AVRT is focusing on what it sees as a shortcoming of another program? Why would any recovery program be focused on what another's principles are? Seems like a lot of time wasted on negative energy. I'd rather spend my time working on improving myself instead of time and space discrediting someone else.

Wouldn't it be better to focus on "Here's what I can do to improve the quality of my recovery" rather than spending time and energy telling other people why they shouldn't do or should shy away from doing? How is that helpful in showing the merits of AVRT? A program should stand on the merits of its own process rather than what they feel is the shortcoming of another. You don't sell an apple by telling someone how bad an orange tastes.

This really is sad, and I'm not being disrespectful.

Wholesome

No I'm saying that AVRT looks for the Addictive Voice.

At no time have I told people what to do. I believe people should think for themselves, something that AA actively discourages.

JeffreyAK

zenchaser, I don't use anything, I just plain don't drink anymore. I've never been a RR follower, but the addict voice concept is a good one and is used in other approaches too. I mostly followed LSR (and a bit of SMART) when I was in early recovery, and stayed engaged for a few years, but I'm not involved anymore. I post here occasionally, maintain a web site that is mostly resources, and convene a semi-weekly meeting under the freestylerecovery.org banner, that is really chit-chat among long-sober friends where the topic of drinking rarely comes up. I disengaged from support groups a few years ago, and I'm glad I did for myself, but they can be hugely important for many people in early recovery, whatever the flavor.

Gottalife

Here is what the AA program says about thinking for themselves. " if he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience."

LadyBlue0527

I'm going to leave it at this. You seem intent to spend time negating a program that has saved lives. Mine included.

I have never been told I can't think for myself or that I am powerless. What I know is my life has been riddled with bad things happening due to alcohol. When I don't stay mindful of it my thoughts turn to alcohol. I am powerless over alcohol if I don't stay mindful.

I have found a program that has brought me joy and peace, finally. If AVRT works for you that's fantastic.

I'd rather spend my time enjoying the positive I've found than downing someone else's program.

Life is far better living in the positive than the negative. I hope you find peace in yours.

Dee74

anyone who thinks AA is some kind of ideological monolith should spend some time in the 12 step forum

D

Wholesome

No thanks, I'm good. I don't need to have a spiritual awakening because I don't have an ISM. I don't have any incurable disease for which the only cure is daily doses of AA in some church basement with people who got DUI's and are forced to attend and religious zealots and creepy men preying on vulnerable woman. The solution to my problem of liking to drink beer to excess cannot be found in a patriarchal, archaic, puritan Christian BB so I won't be reading any 12 step study groups. I'll keep my brain unwashed by the faith of AA.

Dee74

We're getting a little heated here.

Just a reminder - to everyone regardless of 'side' - of respecting others beliefs.

If you can't respect others beliefs when posting, maybe stick to posting about the method thats worked for you?

Dee
Moderator
SR

Wholesome

Jeffrey thank you for telling me about the Orange Papers! There is a ton of information about the truth of AA on there.

JeffreyAK

That site was really important to me in early recovery, because it gave power to me and validated my anger at being pushed into an addiction recovery philosophy that I could not accept. That opened my eyes to the idea that there are indeed other paths. It's good that it is archived, even if the site itself is gone, and I'm sure it helps validate other people too. It presents a harsh one-sided caricature, of course, but factual objectivity is not really the point, it's whether or not it helps you stop drinking.

But one thing that took time for me to see is, Mr. Orange is a complete angry fist-shaking zealot, every bit as much of a zealot as the people who relentlessly criticized him and threatened him and filed lawsuits against him. How anyone can maintain the burning anger it must take to compile all that stuff, is beyond me, and a bit sad. At some point I got tired of the zealotry. That's one of the reasons I disengaged from support groups, my tolerance for zealots of all kinds wore thin. I find much more peace and, yes, serenity, in accepting that we're all different and that's perfectly ok. Life would be boring if we were all the same. And, I'm no better than anyone else for following the path I followed, and people following other paths are no worse.

Wholesome

I would call him a truth speaker. I find him quite funny. The world needs more people like him who are brave enough and dedicated enough to compile factual information and make it available to the public. I found the link archived on Reddit.

Fusion

I applaud you Jeffrey, for the above. It's part of the recovery path, once someone has left AA because the 12 Steps (the program) didn't work for them, then they require deprograming, it's important, it saves people's lives, like mine, When I left I was told I was a failure, one of the untreatables, I'd been consigned to.....well I'm sure you know the usual slogans thrown at you when you question them and leave.

So deprograming is extremely important, in order to build up a person's confidence and self-worth, that they can find another way to stop drinking - that AA isn't the only way, as we are programmed to believe. Believe me, I found that hard and thank God for SR. I truly believe I'd be dead if I hadn't left and joined Sober Recovery.

This is just my experience of AA and SR. Plus my experience (locus of control inside myself - not outside AA), strength (higher power - my own free will)) and hope (came to fruition by freedom from drinking alcohol).

If someone finds sobriety within AA, then I'm truly pleased for them, because they found the right group, the right people. I didn't, I was damaged by the groups I attended and by my first sponsor. Sponsors aren't licensed, qualified, or regulated.

I do hope this post isn't deleted as my previous ones were on this thread. I understand LadyBlue has found freedom from alcohol through AA and I fully understand LadyBlue's post, expressing concern that someone might be put off AA by the posts here. But, likewise, I shudder when I see people recommended to AA, because if they experience what I did in AA, then they'll flounder and maybe, not live to tell their tale.

August252015

Respectfully, that isn't the message of AA as I understand it, see it modeled and read in the BB. The "unfortunates" are those who cannot get well (ie sober); AA is a suggested program - the program itself doesn't "look down on" those who use other methods to obtain sobriety. It is simply that "the program is laid out as it worked for us."

Again, I respectfully disagree with your last sentence. AA offers hope and a solution. Not living in fear or any mixed messages. The book is consistent throughout, and the steps are exceedingly clear, though they are deep when really engaged in and lived. People have to continue the existence of the program and it is these humans, flawed as we all are, who can mis-communicate 'this simple program.'

August252015

I am sad when anyone has this picture of AA or actually experiences the smallest evidence of such. For me, part of what is simply amazing and deeply gratifying and humbling about AA is that I have met some of the very best, most courageous and good people I have ever known in AA. It also accepts everyone regardless of any criteria, as long as the desire to stop drinking is there. You find "bad people" everywhere (including AA) but I do not believe that is the norm. Further, AA strongly teaches that it is not our business to judge anyone else or assess/assert their worthiness- we are to worry about our side of the street.

All of this is freeing to me- and I humbly believe the adage that I "can learn something from everyone I meet" as many people have said to me in different ways.

A place where I can go and not be judged, do my thing, use specific steps as a guide to having my best life- I live in 1,10 and 12 so to speak and am grateful for a pretty terrific life- is exactly the kind of place I want to be.

Regardless of how an alcoholic gets there- AA or not- I'd wish my life on any and everyone out there, with its fullness, peace, fun, challenges, strength, dignity and freedom.

Wholesome

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest

There are MANY people who follow the program and do the steps who do not recover. The stats are less than 5%. That's a lot of unfortunates who just seem to be born that way, incapable of grasping AA's simple faith based religious program. As far as it not being fear based...... people are constantly told that if they don't keep coming back they will relapse and die of their incurable disease.

If you leave A.A., your fate is jails, institutions, or death.

Keep Coming Back... It Works If You Work It, You Die If You Don't. So Work It You're Worth It!

Your best thinking got you here.

Don't go in your head alone. It's a dangerous neighborhood.

It's Our Way or the Die Way.

Unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. We must obey certain principles or we die.

I could go on......

Wholesome

I know that there are good people there too. SR is proof of that, lots of nice, well meaning folks who attend AA here.

Fusion

I've heard that some people take the drug acamprosate (which chemically causes abstinence by altering the alcohol survival drive brain chemicals and cancelling out alcohol cravings). But instead of crediting acamprosate with their abstinence, they credit another program, which is disingenuous to say the least, and dangerous, in that it could lead other people off on a false trail to sobriety. It would be more honest to state their sobriety was generated by a drug.