RobbyRobot

I spent a decade or more in group therapy. I'm all stocked up. At this point I'm not as easy to help from a professionals point of effort as I once was. I can too easily throw back things which make it awkward for the pro to progressively proceed.

The best consultations I now benefit from is with my peers who relate by way of their own life journey. Even then, I'm not an easy guy to work with. Like anybody else in pain, I too become defensive and evasive. How ironic for me. When I was last in therapy (2012) it was akin to a slow motion train-wreck for all involved, with me as the conductor no less.

I would love to just sit with a skilled therapist and let my guts out. Unfortunately, I have yet to find such a therapist. I doubt I ever will at this point in the game to be honest. I'm pretty sure this is mine to own for better or worse. I'm of an open mind, but I need results better than what I am getting if I hope to make it out of this angst.

Hope that doesn't come off as all ego.

Verte

Hugs to you RobbyRobot.

Things are going to be OK. This is not said lightly as a salve but as a fellow human being who experienced a totally destabilizing series of realizations one year ago. A series of understandings about myself which changed my perspective on 'survival' and the meaning and cost of surviving one's own experience. Staying alive felt like a betrayal of the self in some sense. Like, how could I do that to myself? Survive, that is. Survive that! to feel this? Whoa. That sucked.

The body and mind has a seemingly infinite capacity and will to endure. Maybe feeling a desire to give up means that you just do not have to hold on to the reins so tightly any longer? The pugilist within can rest a bit? Perhaps the conflict is part of an internal struggle to let go of expending unnecessary energy on emotions such as shame or the sadness of a bygone era - a you that just is no longer? Unnecessary as in no longer needing to just survive yourself and experience any longer.

Might sound overly simplistic. These are just thoughts to offer you a perspective other than your own at the moment. Changing perspective always helps whenever I find myself stubbornly stuck - like a recalcitrant mule Hah! Recalcitrant was a vocab word from sophomore year in H.S. To this day I cannot use 'recalcitrant' without tagging on 'mule' in a sentence.

I'm glad that you are writing and sharing your thoughts and experience. Hang in there RobbyRobot

**sorry if I am going all off topic and such. I actually forgot the original question and will now go back and re-read.

EndGameNYC

Soberlicious raised an interesting issue related to this conflict. When I am being compliant with values, norms, and expectations that are external to my truer self (as in preparing students for high-stakes examinations), am I acting in an authentic or inauthentic manner? What I suggest is that my conscious choice to prepare them for such exams -- thus stealing time from other pursuits -- is based on helping my students to advance along the lines of socially-based norms in the service of further ushering along those students to a place in which they can practice their own authenticity mitigates against the inauthenticity of the process imposed from without.

As frequently posted and suggested here, sometimes we need to surrender in order to continue fighting another day.

RobbyRobot

The struggle is indeed authentic. The results may not be however, unless one is satisfied with the results. I'm utterly unsatisfied with my results at this point. This is more than sorting things out. This is like being burned for the ninth time. I can only get up so many times before I start to puke my heart out. Its not about being sober. I'll never get drunk. Never.

Doesn't mean much though if you already considering alternatives that make the sobriety / drunkenness choice moot.

I'm not suicidal. But I want to be nonetheless. I suppose I'm afraid this is doable. Its been a long time since such considerations "felt justified"

1969 in fact.

oldsoul1122

In a sense to me it describes me being sober..... as no longer living a lie and being congruent. No more smiley face whistling in the dark while I'm dying inside.

EndGameNYC

I would ask that if decisions can be described as "black-and-white," whether or not they are genuinely decisions at all? To the extent that there are consequences for choosing black over white, or white over black, they may be accurately described as being "decisions," but such self- or other- defeating "decisions" are often made on impulse, under stress or provocation, or while being under the influence of chemicals and/or psychiatric symptoms, many of which are protected under the law. I think that this may be one of Robby's "grey" areas."

RobbyRobot

I'm into surrender as a technique and workable concept. Lord knows, its worked before. The thing with this is, what do I let go of? My feelings?

If I let go of my current feelings, I'm left staring out of a gutless husk of man, so to speak. If I let go of my past feelings, I'm left in a bog of quicksand which will ultimately overcome me because the internal pain is already breaking me.

How does one surrender physical feelings?

BackToSquareOne

Very sorry to hear you're going through all this Robby. Keep in mind that thoughts are just thoughts, they only have the power we give them. In my case I dealt with depression by talking to it, I would tell it to hit me with its best shots, to come up with all the depressing thoughts the mind could manufacture. I know this sounds silly but it seemed to take the power out of the negative thinking.

You know a lot more about these things than I do, I only know that letting the negative thinking and depressing thoughts get too much power is something we can work at avoiding. Not caring can be a defense mechanism, I fell prey to this one more times than I'd like to think about. I found that we can either feed the negative thoughts or do everything we can to starve them. You always seemed to be able to think out of the box, that ability can really help in dealing with a lot of these issues. Stay strong Robby.

RobbyRobot

If my mental illness, or more to the point, my appreciated experiences of my mental illness isn't a grey area, I'd conclude I have swindled myself into meaninglessness.

For me, if I can claim being authentic, I can just as easily claim being unauthentic as well. It really comes down to appreciation of my honest perspective balanced by my idealism, my beliefs, my faith in what is real to me. With out faith, I'm totally undone.

EndGameNYC

Some would argue that the most significant problem in human existence is the creation of "purpose" or meaning in life. This can be an exhausting process that seems to come and go randomly at times, and one that doesn't offer safety or comfort, as much as we'd like it to do so (and certainly many would say, a lifelong one at that.) If creating for ourselves a purpose in life were an easy or even an attractive task, everyone would be doing it.

I would offer that creating meaning in an indifferent Universe in which meaning is not given any more than is the safety or comfort I introduced is life's major conflict, mankind's biggest burden, and the plight of everyone who can say to himself or herself, "I exist."

Meaning is very often found in human suffering, but that isn't a popular item on life's menu, and is typically only "enjoyed" long after the meal has ended, if it's experienced at all.

RobbyRobot

Yeah. I've stared down my monsters time and time again. This time though I'm flying blind, if you will. The only monster I can see today is myself.

I know this is untrue on some level. It must be. Still though, feeling wise I feel like a monster. Like the Hulk. Yeah.

Thanks BTSO. I'll stay strong. I've not felt so dumbfounded and sober all at the same time as this, you know? Its like my feelings are ahead of me somehow...

RobbyRobot

True enough.

My pantry is full not surprisingly. My menu must have been written in disappearing ink, or I'm blind to what was because I can't see thru enough of what is. I dunno. I'm better than this, and yet I feel like yesterdays garbage.

RobbyRobot

I'm glad I'm sharing too, LeTheVerte. I don't think you've gone off topic. No worries, friend.

EndGameNYC

Yet there are also lies told in the service of my survival or the survival of others, or lies told for the greater good, though the latter is often defined by consensus or fiat, and often only achieves something very different than advertised.

jdooner

I would agree with this assessment as I think it through. However, I would be inauthentic to say when I am passionate or falsely believe that what I am doing is for a purpose greater than myself, I feel less turbulence.

When I am still with the voices in my head is when I feel the greatest anxiety - although this has quelled since I began this journey a year ago. Meditation helps.

Well, you definitely have me thinking through my responses Endgame (Dickens) - thank you!

alphaomega

Very recently, I, too, went through what I named as yet another "dark night of the soul". Never have I ever felt so black before. It wasn't so much traditional depression symptoms, per se, but more so of a I just don't have it in me to give a f-ck. Anymore. And at one point I thought, or ever again.

Sometimes friend, life can simply become more than we can humanly bear. Endgame said it best for me once, and his giving me permission to throw my hands up in complete and utter surrender, a "you've gotta be f ing kidding me" moment if you will, was the liberation from the chains.

This moment you are facing brings to mind Capt. Dan in Forrest Gump.

"Is that the best you got !!"

A therapist told me once, feelings are cyclical. Just when we think we've locked the remedy to the pain down, sure enough it breaks free and resurfaces. Angrier, snarlier, and more determined to bust a hole in us that we are sure is irreparable.

What I'm hearing, and I maybe wrong, but I sense an unwillingness to revisit said pain for fear that you might get stuck and it will consume you.

Been. Done. Over it.

Unless, of course, you are not.

To which I would then advise, go big.

Cry, scream, vomit, pound your fists, be as totally irrational without hurting yourself or anyone close by. You won't get stuck there. I promise. You may feel at times like you are sinking as low as you can go. Let go of the sides of the quicksand bog. Be willing to sink to the furthest place in your soul that you have yet to discover.

And then, go to bed.

Tomorrow may hold the answers you are seeking. The dawn of a new day, well brother, after what you have just given yourself permission to feel, might just be the light you are searching for.

You won't get stuck there. But the ONLY away out, is through.

XO AO

Dee74

I'm sorry for your pain Rob - and the self hatred.

I don't have much to add - I think sometimes words are inadequate and I don;t want to speak for you cos there's no 'disabled' template anymore than there is an alcoholic one

I did want to say - fears a biggie - especially if you're looking down a tunnel that seems to get darker not brighter and there's not much you can do about it.

I have my own dark tunnel...my body seems to be my enemy more and more these days...it's not fun when my mind joins in.

A dr once told me I'd probably end up in a wheelchair. I used to chortle at that as I walked miles...but whaddya know - the bugger was right.

I guess I'm lucky in that my change has been very slow and incremental...I still don;t like it - and I'm fighting it as any stubborn alkie would - but I've had time to get used to the idea.

I just hope, like has happened so many times before, whatever happens ends up a gift...

like me stumbling in here at the end of my rope all those years ago, or me finally getting the right kind of accommodation when it looked like the floor at my sisters place was my new bed, or me, totally unexpectedly, meeting my wife and soulmate.

Sometimes I just have to remind myself I'm not 5, or 12, or even 25 anymore.

I have a vast repository of life experience and getting through hard times to fall back on.

I also have a lot of friends, and a little bit of faith that whatever ever happens I'll be ok.

I have that faith for you too Rob - don't sell yourself short.

You are inspirational.

D

Aellyce

Wow. I don't even know where and how to start making a comment and not to overcomplicate it, Robby…

First off, I am very sorry for this current pain that you find so difficult to process. I saw your OP in the morning when you first posted it and like some others, I was puzzled about the real issue behind a proposed philosophical discussion related to sobriety. I wanted to comment straight away because authenticity is a topic I like to discuss myself a lot, but I had a feeling the essence, the underlying cause, of this state of mine is going to be something else…

I think you've expressed it here:

Maybe it's just me, but reading this thread I feel that if you ever wanted to be true to yourself in a very deep way, if you ever wanted to bare your soul in front of many and expose your innermost thoughts and raw emotions - you are doing it here now. And I deeply respect and admire you for it because I imagine how hard it may be to face and expose this vulnerability. Despite of myself never having gone through the types of physical challenges you have endured in your life, I relate to the mentality in several ways, including questioning your authenticity through all this. My own usual pattern and strategy tends to be presenting myself as a sort of philosophical construct, introspecting on it that way, sharing it that way with others because it feels much easier and safer subjectively.

From all I know, it sounds like this current existential crisis of yours has been building up for a while and is now reaching a point where something has to be done, again. And you are just tired of it. You have not described in detail what exactly triggered this or led to this but I suspect you are having some more recent challenges related to your health, unrelated to sobriety, that you feel powerless about… I am only assuming it because there are missing pieces of information between your successful surgery in 2012 and the current state. Am I on a wrong track?

If it's not too far from the truth, then I feel all this has little to do with questions about authenticity per se, much more with facing a new set of perceived limitations? If this is the case, the only approach I can suggest from the top of my head right now is to continue talking about it and your emotions to the extent that feels comfortable. It sounds like you are getting something out of this thread and are getting easier with opening up about these current issues. You say that you prefer not to use 3D world therapy... so continue sharing it here, you can see how genuinely people are interested and want to help

I will stop it here for the time being and just express how much moved I feel by your share and this discussion. Now on whether an "agnostic" orientation towards many uncertain questions in life is shallow or not… maybe in another post later

Thank you, Robby.

trachemys

Robby, you have been one of my heroes ever since I came on here last year.

If you want an anonymous, sympathetic place to pour out some feelings, I will give you my email address. I have no training but, I can listen.

RobbyRobot

Yup. The thing is I've already re-visited said pains. And now I'm stuck here dumbfounded by the sheer avalanche and responsibility of owning what I'm feeling. I'm already past fearing it will consume. I'm being eaten by my own guts. My heart is still beating out a love-song, and I can make sense of reaching out to others, and yet... I have to care enough to come up for air, you know?

Yeah. You know. And so do a lot of others. So do I. I also know hatred of self is a wicked bitch to dance with. I don't think I'm leading, if you know what I mean...

Hey, Thanks Alpha. Its supposed to hurt, yeah? If so, I'm good to go.