Addiction Hysteria: My new found plan for scientific recovery
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 52
Addiction Hysteria: My new found plan for scientific recovery
I have been dependant on opiates for four years now, beginning my true habitual use of them in the summer of 2010. I had used vicodin and oxycontin before than but more as a recreational substance than a day-to-day problem.
The four year journey of dependancy and relapse has been a rocky roller coaster of constant use and withdrawal, hysteria from external forces and the inability to cope with a world I feel is simply devoid of scientific judgement when it comes to the science of the finnicky word we call 'addiction'.
See, I don't believe I am addicted and don't believe anyone else truly, 100%, is.
To me, it is a simple cop-out. Oh and there's no scientific evidence that shows with 100% (or even >50%) that addiction is a genetic condition, which is a fairly huge piece of evidence in my mind but the medical community overlooks what is convenient for them. I won't talk crap about AA because if people want to live life that way and it actually helps them, I say more power to them and placebo effect. Nothing wrong with that; it just doesn't work for people who share a similar perspective to mine.
I am beginning an outpatient program on Monday/Tuesday. On Monday I will be assessed, and Tuesday I will be put on a maintanence of likely suboxone, perhaps methadone, but I would prefer suboxone due to the bonus effects it has of being only a partial-agonist and having a ceiling effect along with the fact that it prevents you from getting off on other drugs (I know the dose is dependant on this claim to some degree, around 2mg or more, but still supresses the effects of other opiates, in my experience).
This is the first time in four years that an opportunity like this has been presented to me. It's a combination of fear, self-loathing, giving into the addiction lie and simply not having the courage to accept that I made the wrong decision from the first time I injected.
The point isn't to say others are wrong, the point is that I get clean and I don't think lying to myself will help me get there. So I propose a new organization of thought regarding detox/getting clean.
1. Cold Turkey doesn't have to be the answer.
This is heavily dependent on where you live, the amount of opiates your body is used to, and the duration of your dependency. I personally would not recommend tapering off by use of street drugs given the lack of certainty in knowing the contents of opiates like black tar. They're cut with nasty chemicals and the purity is laughable. If you're going to taper, do it right and find a place that works for you. In-patient or out, it's up to you to decide what you need to get clean. I'm choosing outpatient because I simply cannot give up the responsibilities of life.
2. Understand the doctors have rules they have to follow, even if they sympathize with you.
This is a big one in my opinion. I believe - only based on experience - that many doctors wish they could do more, but would dare not sacrifice their years of schooling, residency and career just to help you get high. Don't take advantage of them, but don't let them undermine your need to get clean in a humane fashion, if you feel cold turkey is too much for your lifestyle (the detox being too unbearable and/or having life responsibilities) then don't go that route, seek a medical taper instead. That is what I am doing.
3. Realize that overcoming the dependency is much longer than the acute withdrawal symptoms.
Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome or 'PAWS' is widely known among dependant users but is not recognized in the DSM V. Basically, when a person detoxes entirely from a drug, that period can be from 3 days to several weeks, possibly months depending on the chemical, the habitual amount used and the duration of use. PAWS can last anywhere from a month to several years, I've seen. I've had patches of being clean 5 months, craving my DoC every single day despite the efforts I was making to change my habits; I deducted that cold-turkey would simply not work. It took me four years to realize this.
4. Stand your ground and let others judge you all they want; you know whats best for you at the end of the day.
You will get flak from others, most likely if you follow the same strategy to recovery as me. Many people stand firm to 'addiction being genetic' despite any real evidence proving it (send me scientific journals, not opinions, if you wish to challenge this claim. I know genetics play a part, but it is NOT a genetic disease. Good luck finding any evidence).
So as of November 11, I will begin the road to recovery and call that my 'clean date'. I am essentially choosing my own definition of recovery and not letting a single person tell me I'm wrong. I've suffered too long and in the advice of others that has simply led to more pain. If I don't take a stand for myself, who will?
Finally I just want to say, you don't have to hit rock bottom. Please, if you feel your dependancy is getting out of hand, do what you can to stop it. If you're in an area where rehab is considerably harder to obtain, then I can only say I sympathize. As I said, this outpatient program is the first opportunity I've seen in 4 years as a dependant user of opiates.
This all being said, wish me luck everyone. I will keep everything up to date on my recovery, and will not be focusing on 'how long I've been clean' but rather, the effort I am making to make sure I do not become dependent ever again on my DoC.
I ask out of the desire to prevent a flame war, if you disagree with my disbelief in addiction to the point where you just wanna point fingers and say "NUH-UH TAKE RESPONSIBILITY" I would rather not hear it. But hey this is the internet so go ahead and just not listen to my polite request if that's your thing.
TO RECOVERY!
- TheGamer, formerly known as 3fourths
The four year journey of dependancy and relapse has been a rocky roller coaster of constant use and withdrawal, hysteria from external forces and the inability to cope with a world I feel is simply devoid of scientific judgement when it comes to the science of the finnicky word we call 'addiction'.
See, I don't believe I am addicted and don't believe anyone else truly, 100%, is.
To me, it is a simple cop-out. Oh and there's no scientific evidence that shows with 100% (or even >50%) that addiction is a genetic condition, which is a fairly huge piece of evidence in my mind but the medical community overlooks what is convenient for them. I won't talk crap about AA because if people want to live life that way and it actually helps them, I say more power to them and placebo effect. Nothing wrong with that; it just doesn't work for people who share a similar perspective to mine.
I am beginning an outpatient program on Monday/Tuesday. On Monday I will be assessed, and Tuesday I will be put on a maintanence of likely suboxone, perhaps methadone, but I would prefer suboxone due to the bonus effects it has of being only a partial-agonist and having a ceiling effect along with the fact that it prevents you from getting off on other drugs (I know the dose is dependant on this claim to some degree, around 2mg or more, but still supresses the effects of other opiates, in my experience).
This is the first time in four years that an opportunity like this has been presented to me. It's a combination of fear, self-loathing, giving into the addiction lie and simply not having the courage to accept that I made the wrong decision from the first time I injected.
The point isn't to say others are wrong, the point is that I get clean and I don't think lying to myself will help me get there. So I propose a new organization of thought regarding detox/getting clean.
1. Cold Turkey doesn't have to be the answer.
This is heavily dependent on where you live, the amount of opiates your body is used to, and the duration of your dependency. I personally would not recommend tapering off by use of street drugs given the lack of certainty in knowing the contents of opiates like black tar. They're cut with nasty chemicals and the purity is laughable. If you're going to taper, do it right and find a place that works for you. In-patient or out, it's up to you to decide what you need to get clean. I'm choosing outpatient because I simply cannot give up the responsibilities of life.
2. Understand the doctors have rules they have to follow, even if they sympathize with you.
This is a big one in my opinion. I believe - only based on experience - that many doctors wish they could do more, but would dare not sacrifice their years of schooling, residency and career just to help you get high. Don't take advantage of them, but don't let them undermine your need to get clean in a humane fashion, if you feel cold turkey is too much for your lifestyle (the detox being too unbearable and/or having life responsibilities) then don't go that route, seek a medical taper instead. That is what I am doing.
3. Realize that overcoming the dependency is much longer than the acute withdrawal symptoms.
Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome or 'PAWS' is widely known among dependant users but is not recognized in the DSM V. Basically, when a person detoxes entirely from a drug, that period can be from 3 days to several weeks, possibly months depending on the chemical, the habitual amount used and the duration of use. PAWS can last anywhere from a month to several years, I've seen. I've had patches of being clean 5 months, craving my DoC every single day despite the efforts I was making to change my habits; I deducted that cold-turkey would simply not work. It took me four years to realize this.
4. Stand your ground and let others judge you all they want; you know whats best for you at the end of the day.
You will get flak from others, most likely if you follow the same strategy to recovery as me. Many people stand firm to 'addiction being genetic' despite any real evidence proving it (send me scientific journals, not opinions, if you wish to challenge this claim. I know genetics play a part, but it is NOT a genetic disease. Good luck finding any evidence).
So as of November 11, I will begin the road to recovery and call that my 'clean date'. I am essentially choosing my own definition of recovery and not letting a single person tell me I'm wrong. I've suffered too long and in the advice of others that has simply led to more pain. If I don't take a stand for myself, who will?
Finally I just want to say, you don't have to hit rock bottom. Please, if you feel your dependancy is getting out of hand, do what you can to stop it. If you're in an area where rehab is considerably harder to obtain, then I can only say I sympathize. As I said, this outpatient program is the first opportunity I've seen in 4 years as a dependant user of opiates.
This all being said, wish me luck everyone. I will keep everything up to date on my recovery, and will not be focusing on 'how long I've been clean' but rather, the effort I am making to make sure I do not become dependent ever again on my DoC.
I ask out of the desire to prevent a flame war, if you disagree with my disbelief in addiction to the point where you just wanna point fingers and say "NUH-UH TAKE RESPONSIBILITY" I would rather not hear it. But hey this is the internet so go ahead and just not listen to my polite request if that's your thing.
TO RECOVERY!
- TheGamer, formerly known as 3fourths
Last edited by TheGamer; 11-09-2014 at 03:37 AM. Reason: formally to formerly, WHOOPS lol
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
What exactly do you feel members will object to?
Is it this:
Many people stand firm to 'addiction being genetic' despite any real evidence proving it (send me scientific journals, not opinions, if you wish to challenge this claim. I know genetics play a part, but it is NOT a genetic disease. Good luck finding any evidence
Genetics, weak-willed or just plain xxxxed up I don't think many in recovery care the why as much as they are happy to be clean and sober.
Is it this:
Many people stand firm to 'addiction being genetic' despite any real evidence proving it (send me scientific journals, not opinions, if you wish to challenge this claim. I know genetics play a part, but it is NOT a genetic disease. Good luck finding any evidence
Genetics, weak-willed or just plain xxxxed up I don't think many in recovery care the why as much as they are happy to be clean and sober.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 52
Originally Posted by Ken33xx 
What exactly do you feel members will object to?
Is it this:
Many people stand firm to 'addiction being genetic' despite any real evidence proving it (send me scientific journals, not opinions, if you wish to challenge this claim. I know genetics play a part, but it is NOT a genetic disease. Good luck finding any evidence
Genetics, weak-willed or just plain xxxxed up I don't think many in recovery care the why as much as they are happy to be clean and sober.
Is it this:
Many people stand firm to 'addiction being genetic' despite any real evidence proving it (send me scientific journals, not opinions, if you wish to challenge this claim. I know genetics play a part, but it is NOT a genetic disease. Good luck finding any evidence
Genetics, weak-willed or just plain xxxxed up I don't think many in recovery care the why as much as they are happy to be clean and sober.
Also, thanks to anattaboy & Hawks for their warm wishes.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Whatever you need to believe to get and stay sober, that is what will work for you.
I think you're going to find a lot of push-back against your beliefs in treatment (IOP) - but you know that. Most are based on the same recovery model.
Just keep in mind that you can beat this, and try to have an open mind. You never know what might work unless you try it.
I think you're going to find a lot of push-back against your beliefs in treatment (IOP) - but you know that. Most are based on the same recovery model.
Just keep in mind that you can beat this, and try to have an open mind. You never know what might work unless you try it.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 52
Originally Posted by biminiblue
Whatever you need to believe to get and stay sober, that is what will work for you.
I think you're going to find a lot of push-back against your beliefs in treatment (IOP) - but you know that. Most are based on the same recovery model.
Just keep in mind that you can beat this, and try to have an open mind. You never know what might work unless you try it.
I think you're going to find a lot of push-back against your beliefs in treatment (IOP) - but you know that. Most are based on the same recovery model.
Just keep in mind that you can beat this, and try to have an open mind. You never know what might work unless you try it.
Thanks again, biminiblue
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On the road to happy destiny
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by TheGamer
I have been dependant on opiates for four years now, beginning my true habitual use of them in the summer of 2010. I had used vicodin and oxycontin before than but more as a recreational substance than a day-to-day problem.
The four year journey of dependancy and relapse has been a rocky roller coaster of constant use and withdrawal, hysteria from external forces and the inability to cope with a world I feel is simply devoid of scientific judgement when it comes to the science of the finnicky word we call 'addiction'.
See, I don't believe I am addicted and don't believe anyone else truly, 100%, is.
To me, it is a simple cop-out. Oh and there's no scientific evidence that shows with 100% (or even >50%) that addiction is a genetic condition, which is a fairly huge piece of evidence in my mind but the medical community overlooks what is convenient for them. I won't talk crap about AA because if people want to live life that way and it actually helps them, I say more power to them and placebo effect. Nothing wrong with that; it just doesn't work for people who share a similar perspective to mine.
I am beginning an outpatient program on Monday/Tuesday. On Monday I will be assessed, and Tuesday I will be put on a maintanence of likely suboxone, perhaps methadone, but I would prefer suboxone due to the bonus effects it has of being only a partial-agonist and having a ceiling effect along with the fact that it prevents you from getting off on other drugs (I know the dose is dependant on this claim to some degree, around 2mg or more, but still supresses the effects of other opiates, in my experience).
This is the first time in four years that an opportunity like this has been presented to me. It's a combination of fear, self-loathing, giving into the addiction lie and simply not having the courage to accept that I made the wrong decision from the first time I injected.
The point isn't to say others are wrong, the point is that I get clean and I don't think lying to myself will help me get there. So I propose a new organization of thought regarding detox/getting clean.
1. Cold Turkey doesn't have to be the answer.
This is heavily dependent on where you live, the amount of opiates your body is used to, and the duration of your dependency. I personally would not recommend tapering off by use of street drugs given the lack of certainty in knowing the contents of opiates like black tar. They're cut with nasty chemicals and the purity is laughable. If you're going to taper, do it right and find a place that works for you. In-patient or out, it's up to you to decide what you need to get clean. I'm choosing outpatient because I simply cannot give up the responsibilities of life.
2. Understand the doctors have rules they have to follow, even if they sympathize with you.
This is a big one in my opinion. I believe - only based on experience - that many doctors wish they could do more, but would dare not sacrifice their years of schooling, residency and career just to help you get high. Don't take advantage of them, but don't let them undermine your need to get clean in a humane fashion, if you feel cold turkey is too much for your lifestyle (the detox being too unbearable and/or having life responsibilities) then don't go that route, seek a medical taper instead. That is what I am doing.
3. Realize that overcoming the dependency is much longer than the acute withdrawal symptoms.
Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome or 'PAWS' is widely known among dependant users but is not recognized in the DSM V. Basically, when a person detoxes entirely from a drug, that period can be from 3 days to several weeks, possibly months depending on the chemical, the habitual amount used and the duration of use. PAWS can last anywhere from a month to several years, I've seen. I've had patches of being clean 5 months, craving my DoC every single day despite the efforts I was making to change my habits; I deducted that cold-turkey would simply not work. It took me four years to realize this.
4. Stand your ground and let others judge you all they want; you know whats best for you at the end of the day.
You will get flak from others, most likely if you follow the same strategy to recovery as me. Many people stand firm to 'addiction being genetic' despite any real evidence proving it (send me scientific journals, not opinions, if you wish to challenge this claim. I know genetics play a part, but it is NOT a genetic disease. Good luck finding any evidence).
So as of November 11, I will begin the road to recovery and call that my 'clean date'. I am essentially choosing my own definition of recovery and not letting a single person tell me I'm wrong. I've suffered too long and in the advice of others that has simply led to more pain. If I don't take a stand for myself, who will?
Finally I just want to say, you don't have to hit rock bottom. Please, if you feel your dependancy is getting out of hand, do what you can to stop it. If you're in an area where rehab is considerably harder to obtain, then I can only say I sympathize. As I said, this outpatient program is the first opportunity I've seen in 4 years as a dependant user of opiates.
This all being said, wish me luck everyone. I will keep everything up to date on my recovery, and will not be focusing on 'how long I've been clean' but rather, the effort I am making to make sure I do not become dependent ever again on my DoC.
I ask out of the desire to prevent a flame war, if you disagree with my disbelief in addiction to the point where you just wanna point fingers and say "NUH-UH TAKE RESPONSIBILITY" I would rather not hear it. But hey this is the internet so go ahead and just not listen to my polite request if that's your thing.
TO RECOVERY!
- TheGamer, formerly known as 3fourths
The four year journey of dependancy and relapse has been a rocky roller coaster of constant use and withdrawal, hysteria from external forces and the inability to cope with a world I feel is simply devoid of scientific judgement when it comes to the science of the finnicky word we call 'addiction'.
See, I don't believe I am addicted and don't believe anyone else truly, 100%, is.
To me, it is a simple cop-out. Oh and there's no scientific evidence that shows with 100% (or even >50%) that addiction is a genetic condition, which is a fairly huge piece of evidence in my mind but the medical community overlooks what is convenient for them. I won't talk crap about AA because if people want to live life that way and it actually helps them, I say more power to them and placebo effect. Nothing wrong with that; it just doesn't work for people who share a similar perspective to mine.
I am beginning an outpatient program on Monday/Tuesday. On Monday I will be assessed, and Tuesday I will be put on a maintanence of likely suboxone, perhaps methadone, but I would prefer suboxone due to the bonus effects it has of being only a partial-agonist and having a ceiling effect along with the fact that it prevents you from getting off on other drugs (I know the dose is dependant on this claim to some degree, around 2mg or more, but still supresses the effects of other opiates, in my experience).
This is the first time in four years that an opportunity like this has been presented to me. It's a combination of fear, self-loathing, giving into the addiction lie and simply not having the courage to accept that I made the wrong decision from the first time I injected.
The point isn't to say others are wrong, the point is that I get clean and I don't think lying to myself will help me get there. So I propose a new organization of thought regarding detox/getting clean.
1. Cold Turkey doesn't have to be the answer.
This is heavily dependent on where you live, the amount of opiates your body is used to, and the duration of your dependency. I personally would not recommend tapering off by use of street drugs given the lack of certainty in knowing the contents of opiates like black tar. They're cut with nasty chemicals and the purity is laughable. If you're going to taper, do it right and find a place that works for you. In-patient or out, it's up to you to decide what you need to get clean. I'm choosing outpatient because I simply cannot give up the responsibilities of life.
2. Understand the doctors have rules they have to follow, even if they sympathize with you.
This is a big one in my opinion. I believe - only based on experience - that many doctors wish they could do more, but would dare not sacrifice their years of schooling, residency and career just to help you get high. Don't take advantage of them, but don't let them undermine your need to get clean in a humane fashion, if you feel cold turkey is too much for your lifestyle (the detox being too unbearable and/or having life responsibilities) then don't go that route, seek a medical taper instead. That is what I am doing.
3. Realize that overcoming the dependency is much longer than the acute withdrawal symptoms.
Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome or 'PAWS' is widely known among dependant users but is not recognized in the DSM V. Basically, when a person detoxes entirely from a drug, that period can be from 3 days to several weeks, possibly months depending on the chemical, the habitual amount used and the duration of use. PAWS can last anywhere from a month to several years, I've seen. I've had patches of being clean 5 months, craving my DoC every single day despite the efforts I was making to change my habits; I deducted that cold-turkey would simply not work. It took me four years to realize this.
4. Stand your ground and let others judge you all they want; you know whats best for you at the end of the day.
You will get flak from others, most likely if you follow the same strategy to recovery as me. Many people stand firm to 'addiction being genetic' despite any real evidence proving it (send me scientific journals, not opinions, if you wish to challenge this claim. I know genetics play a part, but it is NOT a genetic disease. Good luck finding any evidence).
So as of November 11, I will begin the road to recovery and call that my 'clean date'. I am essentially choosing my own definition of recovery and not letting a single person tell me I'm wrong. I've suffered too long and in the advice of others that has simply led to more pain. If I don't take a stand for myself, who will?
Finally I just want to say, you don't have to hit rock bottom. Please, if you feel your dependancy is getting out of hand, do what you can to stop it. If you're in an area where rehab is considerably harder to obtain, then I can only say I sympathize. As I said, this outpatient program is the first opportunity I've seen in 4 years as a dependant user of opiates.
This all being said, wish me luck everyone. I will keep everything up to date on my recovery, and will not be focusing on 'how long I've been clean' but rather, the effort I am making to make sure I do not become dependent ever again on my DoC.
I ask out of the desire to prevent a flame war, if you disagree with my disbelief in addiction to the point where you just wanna point fingers and say "NUH-UH TAKE RESPONSIBILITY" I would rather not hear it. But hey this is the internet so go ahead and just not listen to my polite request if that's your thing.
TO RECOVERY!
- TheGamer, formerly known as 3fourths
I hope your "strategy" works. Right now you're describing a proposed method not a proven one. Good luck.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
For a proven method that looks to empowerment rather than an admission of defeat, may I suggest you look into Rational Recovery and AVRT. In this context addiction is seen as a behavioral issue and not a genetic one or even an issue of disease. In particular, you may find The Crash Course in AVRT which is offered free online to be useful to you. I did.
Best to you.
Best to you.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 52
Originally Posted by bm2bob
So little about genetics...
...I am unsure how this differs from being a genetic disease but...ok.
I hope your "strategy" works. Right now you're describing a proposed method not a proven one. Good luck.
...I am unsure how this differs from being a genetic disease but...ok.
I hope your "strategy" works. Right now you're describing a proposed method not a proven one. Good luck.
That being said, the old saying "trading one addiction for another" rings true here, no doubt. One could argue that I am not clean, and you would be right in that observation. My perspective is that I've traded a greater evil (my DoC, H) for a much lesser evil (Suboxone). Now this is where my personal experiences comes into play. I have not been able to quit opiates cold turkey and the longest duration I was able to do so (7 months in 2011) still left me with Post-Acute Withdrawal Symptoms that felt, at times, as worse as the acute withdrawal symptoms.
Now fast forward a couple years to me changing my perspective a little bit. I decided for this approach, I am not going cold turkey, but doing maintenance and eventually a taper. For me, I am only able to do this because I am blessed with the supportive family I have and the cost of this treatment makes it difficult for fellow dependent users to obtain suboxone treatment; usually having to just accept methadone.
So in conclusion, you're right. It's not proven and like any bit of science, you don't know until you try.
But here's the chance for me to give it a shot and today I can say that I am already proud of the steps I've taken. Not only was I able to withdraw for three days to prepare for the suboxone (to me a challenging feat on its own), but I am committed to my treatment to the fullest extent. This includes individual and group therapy along with coming to SoberRecovery now and then (my own supplemental therapy as this community rocks). I think this will make for a good balance in not just seeing how others handle their triggers, but identifying my own and I do have a good list so far.
Thank you for your words as you're right in pointing out the potential risk in treading uncharted territory in a scientific sense. If I fail? I fail. If I succeed? Then I've found a personalized methodology that I know worked for me. It may not work for others, but if it works for me then at the end of the day I will be happy.
Cheers!
Originally Posted by freshstart57
For a proven method that looks to empowerment rather than an admission of defeat, may I suggest you look into Rational Recovery and AVRT. In this context addiction is seen as a behavioral issue and not a genetic one or even an issue of disease. In particular, you may find The Crash Course in AVRT which is offered free online to be useful to you. I did.
Best to you.
Best to you.
So far I have to say that I'm really grateful that this community is being open-minded to my approach and helping me identify the aspects of it that need improvement.
Thank you both again for your kind words and suggestions. As for progress, Day 2 (yesterday being the paperwork day) is going fantastic. I feel like I can function, I am not rude to people and I feel like I am thinking rational. Also this is the first time since I bought my recurve bow 8 months ago that I've taken it out to practice; I had a lot of fun and didn't do too bad considering the beast is a 45lb draw and I'm not the strongest fellow.
More updates to come, and I should really change the title of the thread, as I'm starting to realize it is more provocative than inviting and I don't want to closer others out by using such blunt words as 'Hysteria'.
My philosophy is that whatever works, whatever achieves the same end-result (in this case Sobriety) is a working method, but heavily depends on the individual. Right now, I can say that this is the first time in 4 years that I feel like I'm taking a leap in the right direction. One day at a time, and I expect this to last for at least a year. But that's the price you pay when you choose dependency. When you get high, you get as equally low in return; in my experience.
So, to be ligh-hearted, I am calling my method "The Long-Haul", beginning with the day I started actual Suboxone maintenance. .
How fare am I on The Long-Haul? Day 1
Adressing bm2bob's inquiry on disease [Edit]:
Google searching "define:disease" returns two face definitions.
1. a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.
2. a particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people.
If we think of disease as definition 2 more than 1, I could agree. But the actual genetic evidence is finnicky and through my eyes can be squandered through will-power and self-help. Many have told me that being born into a family with an alcoholic being the head of the house hold actually inspired them to avoid the substance. This is also my case, unfortunately only for alcohol though. Growing up around alcoholics always made me weary of it. Even to this day I don't drink often, and when I do, it feels like I'm forcing it rather than enjoying it (so again, I don't drink often). I think there are so many factors at play that I don't want to say it is a disease, but I don't want to say it isn't. I try to view a disease as something palpable, a pathogen of some type. But clearly, the definition of it does include habits/behaviors/patterns. Glad you got me to look that up. I still stand by my hypothesis that it is not a disease, or that if it is, it doesn't have to be chronic. I'd rather not go into the topic more as I feel this sums up my point of view fairly well, but of course I am open to answering questions. I just would rather respect those who view it as a disease and choose NA/AA for recovery.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
TheGamer, concerning your disease definition #2, we must include the context for that definition. Your source supplies this:
A particular quality or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people:
We are suffering from the British disease of self-deprecation.
Are not sin, transgression and iniquity dread diseases that lead to spiritual death?
The blame lies within the disease of greed that has found too comfortable a home in the world of sports.
As the disease of greed and materialism spreads in our minds, so do the physical diseases, as our bodies struggle to eliminate the toxicity from the cocktail of chemicals consumed every day.
Maybe this informs your generous allowance for the usage of the word in the second sense in the context of addiction.
The medical definition is more appropriate here, and we do well to consider that habits and behaviours can be included. Unfortunately, the lay interpretation does not include these meanings, and misinterpretation results.
A particular quality or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people:
We are suffering from the British disease of self-deprecation.
Are not sin, transgression and iniquity dread diseases that lead to spiritual death?
The blame lies within the disease of greed that has found too comfortable a home in the world of sports.
As the disease of greed and materialism spreads in our minds, so do the physical diseases, as our bodies struggle to eliminate the toxicity from the cocktail of chemicals consumed every day.
Maybe this informs your generous allowance for the usage of the word in the second sense in the context of addiction.
The medical definition is more appropriate here, and we do well to consider that habits and behaviours can be included. Unfortunately, the lay interpretation does not include these meanings, and misinterpretation results.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
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Hi gamer,
Glad to see you're taking steps to end your addiction. It will be amazing to have your life back and not be a slave to any substance. Best to you!
Glad to see you're taking steps to end your addiction. It will be amazing to have your life back and not be a slave to any substance. Best to you!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 52
Originally Posted by freshstart57
TheGamer, concerning your disease definition #2, we must include the context for that definition. Your source supplies this:
A particular quality or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people:
We are suffering from the British disease of self-deprecation.
Are not sin, transgression and iniquity dread diseases that lead to spiritual death?
The blame lies within the disease of greed that has found too comfortable a home in the world of sports.
As the disease of greed and materialism spreads in our minds, so do the physical diseases, as our bodies struggle to eliminate the toxicity from the cocktail of chemicals consumed every day.
Maybe this informs your generous allowance for the usage of the word in the second sense in the context of addiction.
The medical definition is more appropriate here, and we do well to consider that habits and behaviours can be included. Unfortunately, the lay interpretation does not include these meanings, and misinterpretation results.
A particular quality or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people:
We are suffering from the British disease of self-deprecation.
Are not sin, transgression and iniquity dread diseases that lead to spiritual death?
The blame lies within the disease of greed that has found too comfortable a home in the world of sports.
As the disease of greed and materialism spreads in our minds, so do the physical diseases, as our bodies struggle to eliminate the toxicity from the cocktail of chemicals consumed every day.
Maybe this informs your generous allowance for the usage of the word in the second sense in the context of addiction.
The medical definition is more appropriate here, and we do well to consider that habits and behaviours can be included. Unfortunately, the lay interpretation does not include these meanings, and misinterpretation results.
Well your argument is fairly valid. I mean I don't know what to say other than more power to you. The only part I don't really agree is the sin bit, but I'm not touching spirituality with a 100-ft pool (south park quote, sorry). I'll keep it simple, to me, identifying sin is to identify wrongness in the eyes of divine judgment, or simply: good and evil exist and are natural forces arbitrarily decided by one entity. No scientific evidence prevails to quantify it. However we can use quality to define our emotions, which we tend to naturally perceive as good or bad. "I'm feeling good." "I'm doing bad." etc. Obviously we can agree malicious , unprovoked, and sometimes ethnic based acts of violence are not good. But there's some individuals out there whoooo... well, would disagree with that. Lets just say I separate myself from those individuals for a good reason.
I think that we just simply have to agree that we hold different schools of thought that honestly either one of us cannot disprove the other.
Originally Posted by MIRecovery
Addiction is a thinking disease
These and all the replies, I do appreciate the open debate. I'm glad we're keeping an open mind here. I couldn't ask anymore of this community given the generosity to allow me the space to try an unconventional method. So far I'm stilling feeling good from my first dose, and have no cravings or desires to engage in illicit behavior. I feel like I am in a rational mindset, not manic (common for me when on opiates) and I actually enjoy things again. Today I got some bongos and have been learning to play them (Andy Kaufman style yo!)
Thanks y'all! Sobriety has won the day and I will keep this train riding smooth.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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Posts: 1,476
Life was going so swimmingly that you just thought a little vicodin and oxycontin would add to life ?
vicodin and oxycontin was the missing piece of the puzzle perhaps ?
Sane people don't think vicodin and oxycontin are "recreational" drugs ......... do they ?
My Mum has never been addicted to any substance in her life.
I'm pretty sure if I suggested a little vicodin and oxycontin .... just for kicks Mum .... oh go on .... you know you want to.
Mum would say "No thanks Hawks .... drugs like that aren't supposed to be taken for fun & recreation ...... what on earth made you think they were ?"
Originally Posted by MIRecovery View Post
Addiction is a thinking disease
And there it is .... stark raving sober, you thought a little vicodin and oxycontin would be a bit of harmless recreational fun.
And I'm sure it was ...... at first.
vicodin and oxycontin was the missing piece of the puzzle perhaps ?
Sane people don't think vicodin and oxycontin are "recreational" drugs ......... do they ?
My Mum has never been addicted to any substance in her life.
I'm pretty sure if I suggested a little vicodin and oxycontin .... just for kicks Mum .... oh go on .... you know you want to.
Mum would say "No thanks Hawks .... drugs like that aren't supposed to be taken for fun & recreation ...... what on earth made you think they were ?"
Originally Posted by MIRecovery View Post
Addiction is a thinking disease
And there it is .... stark raving sober, you thought a little vicodin and oxycontin would be a bit of harmless recreational fun.
And I'm sure it was ...... at first.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Gamer, I don't hold those ideas, they are merely examples from your dictionary of how that D word is used. QUOTES FROM YOUR SOURCE. I am agreeing with you!
My point is that your source's definition #2 is not relevant to this context, we are not using the word's meaning in that sense. Definition #2 is eliminated, leaving only #1, a disorder of structure or function. I don't feel that is appropriate either.
My previous post here said that my experience supports a behavioural definition. Those are my guns, and I'm stickin' to 'em.
My point is that your source's definition #2 is not relevant to this context, we are not using the word's meaning in that sense. Definition #2 is eliminated, leaving only #1, a disorder of structure or function. I don't feel that is appropriate either.
My previous post here said that my experience supports a behavioural definition. Those are my guns, and I'm stickin' to 'em.
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On the road to happy destiny
Posts: 25
[QUOTE=TheGamer;5010491]Indeed, as with all scientific endeavors, we begin with a hypothesis and steps for testing the hypothesis and recording it's observation and data. I am happy to announce that after detoxing for three days, I have successfully been entered into the outpatient treatment I mentioned. I am now on Suboxone. Which if your DoC is not opiates, I'll explain briefly that it has several benefits over Methadone (the mot common form of treatment for opiate dependency). As for it's similarities, it alleviates withdrawal like Methadone. However the differences are such, with Suboxone (Generic Buprenorphine), there is a 'ceiling limit' of effects at 32mg, far far above the dose I am on, and I will never increase my dose, only decrease it over time. Additionally, unlike Methadone, Suboxone alleviates opiate cravings. As for the term disease, I'd rather not debate it. It's become such a hot topic I find that I just would rather respect those who believe it (addiction) is a disease and hope that others respect my view that dependency is behavioral patterns. If I fail there's no reason to deny it, I want my story to be a guide for others in similar positions; because if I succeed that would be phenomenal. I think the most challenging part will be the taper, but we are going to take it slow to avoid as much discomfort as possible.
That being said, the old saying "trading one addiction for another" rings true here, no doubt. One could argue that I am not clean, and you would be right in that observation. My perspective is that I've traded a greater evil (my DoC, H) for a much lesser evil (Suboxone). Now this is where my personal experiences comes into play. I have not been able to quit opiates cold turkey and the longest duration I was able to do so (7 months in 2011) still left me with Post-Acute Withdrawal Symptoms that felt, at times, as worse as the acute withdrawal symptoms.
Now fast forward a couple years to me changing my perspective a little bit. I decided for this approach, I am not going cold turkey, but doing maintenance and eventually a taper. For me, I am only able to do this because I am blessed with the supportive family I have and the cost of this treatment makes it difficult for fellow dependent users to obtain suboxone treatment; usually having to just accept methadone.
So in conclusion, you're right. It's not proven and like any bit of science, you don't know until you try.
But here's the chance for me to give it a shot and today I can say that I am already proud of the steps I've taken. Not only was I able to withdraw for three days to prepare for the suboxone (to me a challenging feat on its own), but I am committed to my treatment to the fullest extent. This includes individual and group therapy along with coming to SoberRecovery now and then (my own supplemental therapy as this community rocks). I think this will make for a good balance in not just seeing how others handle their triggers, but identifying my own and I do have a good list so far.
Thank you for your words as you're right in pointing out the potential risk in treading uncharted territory in a scientific sense. If I fail? I fail. If I succeed? Then I've found a personalized methodology that I know worked for me. It may not work for others, but if it works for me then at the end of the day I will be happy.
Cheers!
I really do wish you well. What the evidence says reliably is that having a support group greatly increases your chances of success. I hope you find one you can use consistently.
I personally don't think about Medication Assisted Recovery in terms of clean or dirty. I wouldn't hesitate to use a medication to help me with any other disease, if it was recommended by a doc, and made sense to me. I don't see addiction as all that different in kind. (But that is clearly using the disease model)
All recovery is individual. If mine looked exactly like yours it wouldn't be mine. We aren't the same person, we shouldn't try to make our recovery the same. I applaud your individuation and ownership of your recovery. I would just suggest that the tried and true are tried and true for a reason
That being said, the old saying "trading one addiction for another" rings true here, no doubt. One could argue that I am not clean, and you would be right in that observation. My perspective is that I've traded a greater evil (my DoC, H) for a much lesser evil (Suboxone). Now this is where my personal experiences comes into play. I have not been able to quit opiates cold turkey and the longest duration I was able to do so (7 months in 2011) still left me with Post-Acute Withdrawal Symptoms that felt, at times, as worse as the acute withdrawal symptoms.
Now fast forward a couple years to me changing my perspective a little bit. I decided for this approach, I am not going cold turkey, but doing maintenance and eventually a taper. For me, I am only able to do this because I am blessed with the supportive family I have and the cost of this treatment makes it difficult for fellow dependent users to obtain suboxone treatment; usually having to just accept methadone.
So in conclusion, you're right. It's not proven and like any bit of science, you don't know until you try.
But here's the chance for me to give it a shot and today I can say that I am already proud of the steps I've taken. Not only was I able to withdraw for three days to prepare for the suboxone (to me a challenging feat on its own), but I am committed to my treatment to the fullest extent. This includes individual and group therapy along with coming to SoberRecovery now and then (my own supplemental therapy as this community rocks). I think this will make for a good balance in not just seeing how others handle their triggers, but identifying my own and I do have a good list so far.
Thank you for your words as you're right in pointing out the potential risk in treading uncharted territory in a scientific sense. If I fail? I fail. If I succeed? Then I've found a personalized methodology that I know worked for me. It may not work for others, but if it works for me then at the end of the day I will be happy.
Cheers!
I really do wish you well. What the evidence says reliably is that having a support group greatly increases your chances of success. I hope you find one you can use consistently.
I personally don't think about Medication Assisted Recovery in terms of clean or dirty. I wouldn't hesitate to use a medication to help me with any other disease, if it was recommended by a doc, and made sense to me. I don't see addiction as all that different in kind. (But that is clearly using the disease model)
All recovery is individual. If mine looked exactly like yours it wouldn't be mine. We aren't the same person, we shouldn't try to make our recovery the same. I applaud your individuation and ownership of your recovery. I would just suggest that the tried and true are tried and true for a reason
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