freshstart57

Now now, Boleo, that's just sloppy. I said nothing of the sort that disputes our flawed nature. Surely, you needn't quote me out of context like that. That cheapens the discourse unnecessarily, I feel.

I said, AA appears to be of the opinion that these wrongs and defects of character must be addressed in order that the promise of divine intervention is fulfilled and obsessions to drink are removed.

miamifella

I got a lot from AA but the confrontational part of it was not helpful. (I can find a lot of shortcomings within myself without having others point them out!) I know the intent of AA is not shaming, but for me it really was and usually I left meetings feeling pretty bad about myself. I thought that this was the point, but others here say meetings make them feel hopeful and good, so I guess it was just not right for me.

For me therapy with a clinical psychologist was more helpful. (He himself is in recovery which also helped) I needed supportive, non-judgmental help. I did discuss things I did wrong and ways I could live better, but it was more than that. It really was about seeing the role of my addiction in my life and what I would need to change if I wanted recovery.

I did not always leave feeling great, but I always left with hope. I think that is important.

foolsgold66

There's a number of loops that aren't closed well, but in a broader sense one could argue that all of these steps help you become a better person than you currently are, and for your effort in that improvement you are then 'granted' the 'spiritual' removal of the desire to drink.

In a practical sense working those steps can improve your self-esteem, confidence, relations with others, etc ad nauseam, which can help you in maintaining an attitude that helps you along a sober path.

IMO it's a self-help program with amateur talk therapy. Divine intervention is often invoked in order to explain that for which there is no single identifiable cause. For some, the true unknown creates more fear than belief in an unverifiable assumption.

My personal definition of recovery is getting sober and staying sober, and being the best all-around me that I can potentially be. I couldn't be the best me as a drinker.

Boleo

FreshS

You keep trying to inject logic, reason and opinion into the 12 steps. Your premise is built upon a fundamentally flawed foundation. Opinion and reason is what we are trying to get liberated from (as in Zen). Experience trumps reason at this level.

What you call "sloppy" I call "fuzzy logic" as in computer programming, I can use algorithms or I can use heuristics to get the same output. Spiritual Principles are the heuristic solution.

Boleo

"Improved self-esteem" is just a drop in the bucket compared to what a Spiritual Awakening can ultimately do.

The spiritual solution is not about gaining the strength(or whatever) to not-drink ODAAT. That is perhaps the greatest fallacy in all of recovery circles. The Spiritual Awakening releases us from ALL thoughts of drinking and drugging. There is no longer any thoughts there to choose between. It's like Zen - "Don't even think about it!"

If you don't believe that - it is because all you have is an opinion about an experience that you have never had.

freshstart57

Naw, Boleo, no reason, no logic, you simply misquoted me. Not cool. What was sloppy was your use of the quote function.

I have nothing to gain regarding sobriety by abandoning reason. I was addiction that I needed to be liberated from, not reason. My experience is that my reason has stood me in good stead.

And I injected nothing in my posts on this thread. Let's try to keep this on topic.

foolsgold66

I don't believe or disbelieve the experience you feel Boleo. I simply can't verify it in any sense. I'd only dispute it as necessary for all. If I wished I could define my 'burden' of choice as spiritual and your non-choice as slavery.

Boleo

That's why we share our ESH. Because speculation and conjecture doesn't help much when it comes to overcoming an addiction. You must (yes there are musts) walk through fear, adversity and failure from a students perspective to make progress when it comes to spiritual growth. That's the plus side to humility (no pain, no gain).

If you walk through the same fear, adversity and failure from a victims perspective, it only leads to humiliation. Same outside - different inside experience.

miamifella

I think the difficulty is that because group members are not always sensitive, the process in 12-step recovery can make someone feel like a victim rather than a student. Giving people feedback is done by many in an aggressive manner.

I think this is why many people experience 12-step recovery as focusing on the negative and on shaming.

But it does not have to be that way.

awuh1

Miami I have now seen you make several posts that are in the same vain. I think your experience with AA is very atypical …. to say the least.

You say “many people experience 12-step recovery as focusing on the negative and on shaming”. Many people? Really! Are you sure you were at an AA meeting? WOW Perhaps they are that way in the deep south, but I have NEVER experienced shaming in an AA meetings or in the process of working the steps.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say YOUR experience of a few meetings (or several post-meeting conversations if I remember correctly). And if I remember correctly they also took place place in a single general location, Miami. I think this might be more accurate, rather than speaking for “many people”.

But your right about one thing. It doesn’t need to be that way....and it’s not (in all but the very rarest of instances).

miamifella

My experience is of about 20 or 30 different groups for over 7 years in three cities. So while it may not be universal, it would be a mistake to call it "rare." I only found one group where this was not how things were done.

The things I am talking about never occurred within the meeting (since the prohibition on crosstalk, advice, and inventory taking during meetings preclude it), but rather before and after it. In the groups whose meetings I attended, it was expected that people would stay after the meeting and get advice on their program from anyone who wanted to offer advice. Maybe the "meeting after the meeting" phenomena is not universal, but others here have also discussed it happening where they are.

It felt awful and I really believed that recovery was something I might never achieve. I feel it is important to let people know that they can still find recovery, even if they find the confrontational part of 12-step recovery ineffective. I felt more and more hopeless with each passing year, but I thought that if I could not get it in AA, then I could not get it at all. I would hate to see anyone else feel that way so I do feel it is important to share what I saw.

I do not regret my time in 12-step recovery. It did give me a vision of what recovery could be. The literature still inspires me. And as you have probably also read, I almost always recommend it to people who are new to recovery.

But I have to admit to a skepticism that the warm-fuzzy version of AA that I often read about here is so widespread. It just is so at odds with everything I saw and everything I was taught about how the program works.

And this was over a long period of time in a few areas of Florida. But even when I visited meetings in the Northeast they seemed to run the same way.

awuh1

As with most groups of people, some stay afterward to socialize. AA is no different. The “inventory taking” is not a practice I have ever heard of until your posts.

I cannot help but wonder why you would stay after meetings if you found this sot of “inventory taking” behavior so harmful. As you said, it's not allowed in meetings (and for good reason). In any event, it's not part of AA. Its not part of the meetings and its not part of work with a sponsor. Other people are not responsible for the inventory portion of a persons step work.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing this is a common occurrence, even in an after meeting social setting. Can you point out a few posts, on this site, where people have referred to this sort of 'after meeting inventory-taking' behavior? If it's at all common I would think people would refer to it all the time. I have never seen a post about this sort of thing outside of yours.

Johnston

@miami,

Your experiences with AA are not atypical. I have over 2 decades of program experience (the first 15 years as an ardent attendee) and share your views of the fellowship.

miamifella

awuh--

I did indeed start leaving right after meetings.

One of the wisest things I learned in 12-step recovery is that we each can only speak of our own experience. I am glad that you have had a good experience in AA. But whether that is typical or not I cannot say. I can only talk about my own experience.

I think it is important to have a range of experience represented here at SR. People will listen to what they can relate to and skip over what they cannot. I know that I wish something like this had been around since I felt so alone and without hope. I just want others to know that they can recover even if they are not so good with the steps.

Boleo

"You can get well in the rooms of AA and find plenty of company. Or you can stay sick in the rooms of AA and find plenty of company. It all depends who you choose to listen to."
(Joe Hawk)

Joe Nerv

I never viewed the 12 steps as focusing on my wrongs. I viewed them as a vehicle to become a better person. Never saw anything negative in them at all.

I am what I am. We all are what we are. I never understood people's reluctance, or fear, to know and address this. We all have good and bad in us. I don't think anyone argues that. Why not do all we possibly can to be rid of the things that hold us back, and strengthen the things that bring us love, freedom, peace, and joy?

The happier I am, the more likely I am to remain sober. I see the steps as one of many ways to achieve that happiness, and ensure a sober life. It has been working wonderfully for me now, for many many years.

foolsgold66

Recovery is just a word. It is the substitute for cure, since there isn't one. Not using the substance keeps the affliction from causing additional harm. It takes time for the damage to repair, and it may not all go. The OP speaks of ways to stay diligent in our awareness that while we are out of the crisis zone we are never far from danger. I think there are lots of ways to do so. Participation in SR is one, participation in Lifering another, practicing AVRT, attending AA or reading and working its literature. Service to others with the affliction can be done outside the context of AA. Just volunteer at a homeless shelter or soup kitchen and you will be helping addicts stay alive and find their opportunities to dig out. Humiliation and negativity need not occur. You may smile politely and walk away, and find another venue.

Threshold

Miamifella, I've experienced what you have among the fellowship of AA, in person, and heck, even online.

It's not what the program is about, but it happens. I've been jealous when I read people's posts about how amazing, warm, welcoming, etc their AA experience has been. I admit to mumbling to myself "what am I? chopped liver?"

I believe that others have had a warm welcoming experience, but I've had people argue with me that my experience was all in my head...but I've never heard anyone question it when people have positive experiences...just an observation.

I've found support, understanding, etc in other venues. I ceased going to meetings that led to me taking attention off of recovery, for any reason.

I have found in many areas of recovery, things that inspire and aid others have the opposite effect on me. Maybe I'm a weird bird? but what matters is that I haven't given up and I kept working, searching, poking, testing until I found a combination of things that keep me headed in the right direction.

for a long time I figured something must be wrong with me that I couldn't fit into the AA fellowship. But it's no harm/fault on either side. I WILL say that there were plenty who also figured there was something wrong with me that I couldn't fit into AA fellowship and they were glad to offer their opinions! But THAT was one of those things that distracted me from recovery, a tangent I couldn't afford.

The real question for me was why did it matter? AVRT isn't my thing either, but it never grated on me that AVRT wasn't the recovery method for me. The issue I had to come to terms with was WHY AA mattered so much.

Now, like booze, it's a non issue. Working the steps brought me freedom from THAT as well!

miamifella

Thanks, Threshold--

I sometimes feel like I am being gaslighted. But some people NEED to believe in absolutes. I know that AA works for a large number of people. I am aware that there are a number of regional differences. So I would never describe my experience as universal or even typical. I do not understand how anyone can. One of the things that I like about AA is the insistence that we can only share our own experience and that is more valuable that general statements.

thebluewolf

I found the steps quite useful on my previous attempt. I was a regular A.A. member too. I have nothing against A.A., The Big Book or the steps etc but I found that there seemed to be an over emphasis on my character defects more than anything. I don't think anyone is inherently bad and I suspect I may have fell in with an over zealous but well meaning crowd.

In principle I agree with the O.P. though; I think the steps are a fine way of trying to live a better life