emmanuel2012

I'm interested in anyone thoughts on this matter,
Not just rationally, but spiritually, for deep questions
Require deep & rich solutions.

Concept#1: Recovery requires fundamental change
Concept#2: Fundamentally, everything in life is dynamic

So, what is this apparent "change" and why is it so "fundamental"?

Personally I recognize the continuosity of my total existence.
The only constant is change itself.... even a rock, a religion,
Alll the shadows, pass, and are done..

I see my recovery as more of a choice than a fundamental change,
Between Light and thw Denial of Light,
..and I don't see my sobriety date as sort of 180 degree turning point.
In fact what I was doing was "sitting on the fence" avoiding
The ultimate question of life universe and everything...

Anyone can relate..contribute?

kurtrambis

You have gone way above my head emmanuel! I had enough weird thoughts when going through withdrawals.

Freedom1990

The only constants in my life are God and change.

That being said, I am a work in progress, for several years now. I can't stay in the same spot for long. I am either regressing, or moving forward (which I much prefer).

I am continually evolving spiritually and emotionally.

Gypsy Feet

I felt a change in direction/thought/purpose when I got sober. Every morning for a couple of years I would wake up and say to myself "tonight I will not drink". Every night I would drink. I held certain beliefs about my drinking that while maybe were constantly changing minutely, one moment is never the same as the last, were constant enough to allow my drinking to continue.
The morning I quit I had life altering changes in my thoughts and beliefs that were not of the ordinary variety of change. I believe right now I am going through that special change of transformation.

sfgirl

This seems like a very intellectualized way of trying to relate to a process that is not very intellectual. I don't see any opposition between statement one and two. They can both co-exist. Statement two simply states we are constantly in a state of change. Statement one says that state of change makes a fundamental shift during the recovery process. If I could make a drawing I would do one where the arrow just points forward and another where there is a turn at recovery.

But for me understanding that change intellectually or foreshadowing any change isn't really helpful because the change is or has been so fundamental, meaning at the core. It has not been instant and I can't really explain it in words. So I personally would not disagree with recovery requires fundamental change. Maybe I would take issue with the word "require" because I have no idea what recovery actually requires or does not but it has certainly been a part of my experience.

However, I am not quite sure I understood the question

Mark75

Absolutely... it is not a 180 degree turning point... That is just the date you quit drinking (or using).... change yes, but not fundamental change.

Recovery is a spiritual change, not a tangible external objective change, but a change at the level of our soul, our foundation if you will... self seeking fades away and we plug in to the power of the spirit. Our essence....

Life's essence (although not separate, but greater than the individual's) is dynamic and is constantly changing. So you could say that one's fundamental change, when one enters the sunlight of the spirit, will be that our life becomes dynamic, not static, as we are in our addictions... we are now part of a greater whole, life in it's fullest... life always changes....

or something like that???

Mark

emmanuel2012

I know, sfgirl, my approach was pretty clumsy to this thread,
It was similar to, if you were my classmate, and I asked you,
"Do you walk to school, or do you bring your lunch?"
Two appraently indepdent statements, that I suggested
Actually conflict where they don't.
Silly me, creating conflict where there isn't, lol
Thanks to all who have contributed, it helps me
see my experience is validated, in that,
Recovery is not instant, although fundamental.
I think that was all I was really simply seeking,
Through a complicated set of lenses,
My thinking is still blurry,
And I over complicate and intellectualize
To the point of utter stupidity sometimes.

Boleo

For me it required a Spiritual Awakening.

Learn2Live

I don't think you're overcomplicating things. I think it's GREAT that you are thinking thru this stuff! That's all part of recovery (and living). Here's my input (and I LOVE to give my input because I feel like someone might value my opinion):

Concept 1: TRUE
Concept 2: TRUE
And they ARE related.

Concept #1 Recovery requires fundamental change: But what changes are necessary for recovery? Is recovery something you can hold in your hand? No, not really. Recovery is a process. Life is a journey. We fall, we get back up. We make mistakes, we act to correct them. To me, the fundamental change in a person who seeks recovery is the willingness to think in a different way than we ever thought before. It's not that we really WANT to make a specific change (like I want to quit drinking!) Who was ever happy to say that? "Yeah! Sounds like a good time-I'll quit having fun!" No, we don't want to make the change but somehow we know we need to in order to survive. So, we distract ourselves from the change itself, and shift our focus on something else, usually ourselves and our relationship with God.

You don't change who you ARE, you change the way you think. And the way you think changes the way you act and react to the world around you. Any kind of change in your thinking has this effect on you, whether it is in recovery, talking to a new set of friends, going to Africa and observing how people there live, going to college and taking a class in Art History. Whatever you allow yourself to experience, whatever you open your mind up to, changes you without you even trying. You cannot force change, but you can accept it. It's how we grow. When a person says, "This is who I am, and this is who I forever will be" it is a surefire way to avoid growing up. (Someone important said that once, I just can't remember who it was).

Concept #2: Fundamentally, everything in life is dynamic. A very pretty way of saying "change happens. Yes, everything and everyone changes every day. We have new and different experiences every day that change us. But change is usually small and unnoticeable. Changes occur in baby steps. And usually, when you approach something that you want to change head-on, you defeat yourself. It is often when you allow yourself to become distracted and unattached to the problem you want to solve that the problem solves itself.

Look at new parents. They have a baby, they bring the baby home, they do their best to take care of the baby. They get no sleep. They are worried about messing the baby up. They worry whether or not they're "doing it right." They get totally distracted from themselves and then one day, the baby is five years old and the parents say, "Where did all the time go?" And then they pause to look in the mirror and say, "When did I get all this grey hair?!?!?!" And "Why are all my clothes so junky and stained?"

Anyway, those are my observations and opinions and experiences. Hope you like them.

freya

I, too, do not see any inherent, necessary contrdadiction between points 1 and 2 in this particular case.

However, there are, have been, and, I'm sure, will continue to be many recovery related ideas/issues/concepts/whatever that I do, initially, find to be contradictory and/or nonsensical. In my experience, the actual problem, in every single case, has been my own insistence on understanding immediately and rationally.

What I've discovered is that trying to force this kind of understadning in my own time and with my rational intellect is counterproductive and frustrating for me. Personally, I have much better results when I just "hold" the question/issue in my mind -- bring it up in prayer and meditation, at meetings, talk to program friends or people whose spirituality and healing journeys I respect about it, ect.. -- and then eventually, I get some kind of "resolution" around it.

.....and, very often, it is much more of a "resolution" than a rational, explainable, objectively verifiable "answer." My guess is that that is because "truths" of a spiritual nature are often not best and/or most easily accessed -- or even reducible to things that are best and most easily accessible -- by the rational intellect.

So, I guess I'd say that, if you're struggling with whatever you find to be problematic or contradictory about these points, you might try just holding them gently in your mind as a "question" and putting that out there to the unviverse in a relaxed, gentle way, and then just noticing what comes along about it that might help resolve it for you on a "higher" and/or different level.

freya

jamdls

In order for me to recover my thinking and my actions had to change, not just about the act of drinking but pretty much in everything. I am not the person I was 2 yrs ago, sure I still look pretty much the same, have the same job, live in the same house etc but the way I view the world and my life has changed. I spent the first year of sobriety doing lots of soul searching and I hated a lot of what was there-- so I went on a journey to forgive myself and others who had harmed me and by doing so my life has done pretty much a 180. I had to change and forgive in order to stay sober.

emmanuel2012

Thanks to the wonderful responses,
I appreciate the most thoughtful and caring replies.
I was a bit pressed for time
when I initially probed these concepts.

After gently positioning them in my mind, as suggested,
i have come to believe that the only conflicting message
is that there is a looming rationalization in the concepts,
in my head anyway, suggesting that:

Since all things are changing,
and recovery is a big change,
Nothing is permanent,
Nothing really lasts,
from a grain of sand,
to the birth and death of a star,
nothing will really stay the same,
so why do all of this work
for a spiritual awakening that won't last?

its a rationalization that puts my life in perspective
as being very small, practically insignificant.
Overall, i think it's helpful to see how huge the
universe really is, but in a sense my Ego
and my sense of Pride get in the way
from truly remembering how much I'm NOT,
how very little i've DONE, and how little this matters.

This darkness I accept, and it's actually quite
powerful, but as long as I realize that the power
can be seen as a denial of the necessity in my life
to make major changes, relatively. for its easy
to justify getting high, when no one else will
really ever really care, and when the universe is
so big, that things like getting high are pretty insignificant.
But by staying sober today, tomorrow will come easier;
this I have found to be true, every morning after..

how little this means, but so fundamentally it works~

Zencat

ops double post

Zencat

I see rationality to be, for me at least, the door that opens to the depths of spirituality.
What spirituality do I speak of? Reverence, reverence is my perception of what is spiritual means to me. The greater the revelation of awareness comes not by blind faith, as I'm concerned, but by opening the doors of perception. That is to say an expansion of my POV is furthered by examination and discernment of subjective reality.

Maybe I'm missing the mark by being feeling slighted by the whole idea that rationality is not included as a form of spirituality, in the highly subjective sense abet. After all my primary spiritual practice is one of the mind. It has been described as a "religion of the mind" by some of the greatest practitioners of (my form of spirituality) Zen. So it goes for me that rational thought cleanses perception by filtering out the abstract absurdity's and brings me in focus with the day to day relevance. And from that relevance brings me reverence, reverence for the immediateness of now.

As for the rest...

No conflict as noted by the above responders to you question that also resonates well with me. Change is dynamic, is IMO, one the great revelations of relativity. Hum...a forgone conclusion of the rational mind? Interesting perhaps.

Anywho...Thanks for the "deep thoughts to ponder" as my best thinking keeps me in addiction treatment as well as my best behavior maintains my minds commitment.

gingernyc

Since all things are changing,
and recovery is a big change,
Nothing is permanent,
Nothing really lasts,
from a grain of sand,
to the birth and death of a star,
nothing will really stay the same,
so why do all of this work
for a spiritual awakening that won't last?

I think this is like saying, "Why eat? If the only thing that happens is I get full and then I have to eat again in 5 hours... Or, why sleep? All I do is wake up, get tired and have to sleep again." I think the same holds true for spiritual awakening. It isn't a finite happening. Not like, "I had a spiritual awakening and now I'm fixed. I'm done." No, I think the real spiritual awakening comes in knowing that we get up everyday and do the work of living. Some days we will be further along the path, some days we might be where we started the day before. There is nothing else. When the neophyte says to the Zen monk, "Master, I've found enlightenment, now what should I do?" the Zen monk usually says something like, "Wash your rice bowl." It's finding the beauty and the pain and the suffering and the realness in all that is, everyday, day after day. That's it. Maybe spiritual awakening can be likened to the physical: you wake up, you fall asleep, you wake up, you fall asleep. Or, you get your spiritual nourishment (like food), digest, feel sated for a while, and start the cycle again. Yes, nothing is permanent, but with conscious effort, cultivating a spiritual way of being helps us enjoy and appreciate the good and the bad in life. Surf's up. Catch a wave. The wave goes up and then down. It doesn't last. Another wave is right behind that one. And that one. That's all there is.

Missybuns

"I can choose to see this differently"

I have a choice. I can choose differently and it automatically changes my perception.
I have always had a choice.

Choosing differently where my personal recovery is concerned is without a doubt a fundamental change, as it changes the basis of my foundation for a new "system" now in action. This new system keeps me clean and growing and that's the foundation for my ongoing recovery.

joedris

There is change, and there is change. Some change is constant - the sun rises and then it sets. The tide ebbs, then flows. I am hungry, then sated, then hungry again. Bt these are physical things and we accept by their nature that change is inherent. We also recognize that certain things change from good to bad, or from bad to good, and then back again. Such is the nature of the universe.

But there are certain things that seldom change, and when they do it will be a singular event. Life ends in death, never to revert back to life again. A thing destroyed is destroyed only once. And so on.

Consider also those intangibles in our existence. Our emotions certainly change, but our core personality, once engrained, changes little unless we force it to. Here we arrive at the concept of recovery requiring fundamental change. As alcoholics we deal with life's problems by running from them. We hide behind the bottle. This is our core behavior and we will never achieve recovery unless we change it. We need to learn to deal with life's problems without running from them and that, I argue, is a necessary fundamental change. I would also argue that when we deal with the inner self,the ego, the core personality, that these things don't easily fit into the concept of fluidity. Thus the statement that everything in life is dynamic isn't necessarily true here.

Granted, it's possible that the change we effect necessary to achieve recovery can revert back to it's original form, but this is something we can control and prevent if we are diligent in protecting our sobriety. Reversion then, while possible, is not inevitable so long as we have control over our lives.

Is your recovery more of a choice than a fundamental change? Consider what you chose to do. You chose to make a fundamental change. And such things are permanent for as long as we choose them to be.

jamdls

I'd be willing to bet that if someone just quits drinking/drugging but does NOT make true fundamental changes in their life-the way they view life, see and react to others/attitude change/self perception/.... they will likely wind up back where they were.