Zencat

Look at faith it this respect: confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in somethings ability. Faith based recovery would simply have you believe in something else with more power than you. That if you can believe in such a force, you can tap-into it and overcome you addiction.

Admittedly I find the spiritual program of AA with its religious elements a bit to far stretched for my tastes. AA was the first house on the block when I became seeking help for my homelessness, hopelessness, plagued with serious medical. organ failure, mentally broken, lost, disturbed and ruthless to be better no matter what it would take..

At that critical time AA did not take. Needless to say, I had to take my last survival skills elsewhere after some time in AA. At that point in time I had my 'white light' flash of inspiration, being that if I want to get well, I had to be the spearhead of my recovery.

I found what I needed by being inquisitive, diligent and dogged to make what I had at the moment work: a dire pull to remain sober. I found that grave desperation will born a inner necessity that will sneak wellness "no matter what" AA or the other.

Charon

Yep, heard that in a lot of meetings too. Bushwah. I've been attending meetings for lots of years, one a day for the last year*). AA has rigid dogma which must be accepted whole and without question (BB & 12 Steps). You MUST accept a "higher power" that is the only thing that can save you (i.e. "restore you to sanity") and eventually, ultimately that higher power MUST be "God" - capital G. They profess spirituality but then ram "God" down your throat as the end all and be all. It's only "not religious" because they don't force you to believe in a particular religion. "God" is still required.

Don't believe me? Listen to the Joe & Charlie lectures or Ray O'Keefe They are considered to be some of the prophets/saints in AA. Read the steps or the Big Book and count the number of times "God" (capital G), "Him" (capital H) appears - and in what context. Read the "Chapter to the Agnostic". Belief in an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing "God" that you bow down to is required. To be sure, AA has a smug answer to those who can't accept this. They are people who are unwilling to turn their will & lives over to the care of "God".

* You may wonder why I have attended so many meetings. I was doing my best to give AA a fair chance. It works for some - a certain type of person. And for those it works very well indeed. For me, I can no more accept the kind of belief system required by AA than I can that the earth is flat, the moon landing was a hoax. and Obama is a foreign born muslim.

Having come to the point where, though sober (and don't trot out that "dry drunk" bushwah), meetngs have begun to generate enough irritation often enough that I found myself leaving many meetings wanting a drink. I've stopped going. I still go to a particular meeting once in a long while to chat with a few friends about life in general. I make sure to drift in after the ritual incantations and step outside before the final prayer. I sometimes skip the qualification depending on who it is. If I find the topics or shares onerous I also step outside. The idea of fellowship and support among recovering alcoholics is the single brilliant concept in AA. It's a huge shame that the dogma prevents so many from being helped by that fellowship because of unrealistic requirements that have nothing to do with getting and staying sober.

Zencat

Ack...Not this old drag again

The 12 Steps are free to interpretation as it is "God as we understand Him". My understanding is God is zip and Good is better. Case closed.

Now in the BB, pages what to whatever, The 12-steps are worked/explained through what the author(s) believe is a God of their understanding. Need that be your understanding too...absolute no. No matter how convincing the author(s) of the BB state their opinion of how they worked the 12-Step, it is not only way to be recovered by using the steps. The way an individual connects with their conception of a HP is personal. What use of a personal HP would be if it were the same of the BB...none really.

Everything else, religious spirituality, quasi-religious spirituality, new age religious spirituality and so on...Yes there is a religious element in AA's program. Bill W said so much. So what of it? It need not be in an individual working of the 12-Steps.

So what to make of it all?

"In AA's first years I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody. Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it was damaging - perhaps fatally so - to numbers of non-believers. Of course this sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out into our relationships with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that same old barrier-building refrain, "Do as I do, believe as I do - or else!"
The Dilemma of No Faith, By Bill Wilson, AA Grapevine, April 1961

"Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions."
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 26.

"If he thinks he can do the job some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 95.

“make A.A. itself your higher power. Heres a very large group of people who have solved their alcohol problem.”
Twelve Steps And Twelve Traditions, pp. 27-28

frankinnc

Yeah, unfortunately, this may occur at some meeting places as every group is diiferent and has it's own "group concious", but it is'nt always so. As I stated in another post, there are actually agnostic/atheist AA meetings in some places now: Worldwide Agnostic A.A. Meetings

And many meetings are opening up a bit and becoming more progressive as "old timers" die off and younger folks fill the ranks. In any case, it's like anvilhead said..go to 10 meetings and make your decision. And as zencat pointed out above, this stuff is open to interpretation. Peace

larrylive

Blah, blah, blah.....

I guess ya'll skipped right over Dee's comment/request (I would not like his job, my fine lines are made with a paint roller)

In the end, no matter your personal opion, God loves you and said I should too.

Be well,
Larry

Dee74

I can't see that this thread is going to improve....seems like a lot of back and forth sniping to me.

I hope you find something that works for you Starlit - whether it's AA or not.

I recommend you visit the Secular Connections forum if you think you may benefit from a non 12 step approach

thread closed.

D