We Agnostics question
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by tomsteve 
it doesn't matter how deep my understanding of my HP gets, it will always fall short, for to fully understand and comprehend my HP means I am equal. I did that before. it didn't work too good,other than to get me into the doors of AA.
And yes, I totally get the logic here. God isn't God if I can fully understand it. That's simply not the nature of God.
Well... another way I see things: God is all this we see and observe and know... it is in everything. And to take a little piece away, to try to blast a subatomic particle and separate it from the structure it makes up is to "play god" and to create chaos out of natural order... good example, atomic bombs. We may not understand quantum physics entirely, and therefore in my mind it is a great approach to the god concept.
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Originally Posted by SoberJennie
The Higgs boson wouldn't be a thing anyone on earth would claim to fully understand at this point.
And yes, I totally get the logic here. God isn't God if I can fully understand it. That's simply not the nature of God.
Well... another way I see things: God is all this we see and observe and know... it is in everything. And to take a little piece away, to try to blast a subatomic particle and separate it from the structure it makes up is to "play god" and to create chaos out of natural order... good example, atomic bombs. We may not understand quantum physics entirely, and therefore in my mind it is a great approach to the god concept.
And yes, I totally get the logic here. God isn't God if I can fully understand it. That's simply not the nature of God.
Well... another way I see things: God is all this we see and observe and know... it is in everything. And to take a little piece away, to try to blast a subatomic particle and separate it from the structure it makes up is to "play god" and to create chaos out of natural order... good example, atomic bombs. We may not understand quantum physics entirely, and therefore in my mind it is a great approach to the god concept.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
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SoberJennie I have found that “trying to visualize it” is only helpful to a point. Getting a “feel” for it, so to speak, has been more useful. IMO it’s the seeking that is somehow quite essential. Here are two things that I have found quite interesting. Happy hunting!
The Primacy of Consciousness - Peter Russell - Full Version - YouTube
Carl G. Jung
The Primacy of Consciousness - Peter Russell - Full Version - YouTube
Carl G. Jung
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Originally Posted by awuh1
SoberJennie I have found that “trying to visualize it” is only helpful to a point. Getting a “feel” for it, so to speak, has been more useful. IMO it’s the seeking that is somehow quite essential. Here are two things that I have found quite interesting. Happy hunting!
The Primacy of Consciousness - Peter Russell - Full Version - YouTube
Carl G. Jung
The Primacy of Consciousness - Peter Russell - Full Version - YouTube
Carl G. Jung
Ah... synchronicity
I recall Schrodingers Cat from philosophy classes. Very interesting!! Thanks for these links. I've been reading them, and have gone down a rabbit trail now 
It's reminded me so much of Philosophy of Mind class and some of the things we discussed, but that was over 10 years ago! Yes, I was familiar with Peter Russell, I think he is at the intersection of parts of psychology, philosophy, and physics.
Btw, my degrees were in psychology and philsophy, so all this is right up my alley!
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I find fascinating the central “role” of light in talking about physics, religion and mysticism. Light has qualities that are unlike anything else. Any “thing” else. It acts like a particle and a wave at the same time! As Peter Russell points out, it has “absolute” qualities. It plays a central role in talking about relativity as well as quantum mechanics, and its the first thing that God created (as per Genesis 1 verse 3). I'm not a bible thumper (let alone a big book thumper) but I don't find that to be a coincidence.
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just adding that I don't need a concept of a higher power to work steps 2 & 3, I only need willingness
Willingness to believe or willingness to set aside my old beliefs
and I don't give up my free will, I do know I am under the care of a power greater than I
it's simple and I don't need to complicate this.....
Willingness to believe or willingness to set aside my old beliefs
and I don't give up my free will, I do know I am under the care of a power greater than I
it's simple and I don't need to complicate this.....
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Originally Posted by awuh1
I find fascinating the central “role” of light in talking about physics, religion and mysticism. Light has qualities that are unlike anything else. Any “thing” else. It acts like a particle and a wave at the same time! As Peter Russell points out, it has “absolute” qualities. It plays a central role in talking about relativity as well as quantum mechanics, and its the first thing that God created (as per Genesis 1 verse 3). I'm not a bible thumper (let alone a big book thumper) but I don't find that to be a coincidence.
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Originally Posted by sugarbear1
just adding that I don't need a concept of a higher power to work steps 2 & 3, I only need willingness
Willingness to believe or willingness to set aside my old beliefs
and I don't give up my free will, I do know I am under the care of a power greater than I
it's simple and I don't need to complicate this.....
Willingness to believe or willingness to set aside my old beliefs
and I don't give up my free will, I do know I am under the care of a power greater than I
it's simple and I don't need to complicate this.....
“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” -Einstein
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Quantum of Action Arthur M. Young: The Reflexive Universe
Sober Alcoholic
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I completely agree with you sugar bear. All that's required is willingness.
As a practical matter, setting aside old beliefs (becoming truly open minded), required me to eventually to fill the vacuum. I've been amazed at what I've found. Truly amazed.
As a practical matter, setting aside old beliefs (becoming truly open minded), required me to eventually to fill the vacuum. I've been amazed at what I've found. Truly amazed.
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BB 3rd. Edition, Pg. 46:
"We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a
willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results."
Page 47:
"As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built."
Then, Page 55:
"We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found."
"We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a
willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results."
Page 47:
"As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built."
The consciousness of a victorious human life on earth is born of creature faith that dares to challenge each recurring episode of existence when confronted with the awful spectacle of human limitations, by the unfailing declaration: Even if I cannot do this, there lives in me One who can and will do it, a part of the Higher Power of the universe of universes. And that is the miracle which overcomes the world, and ourselves with it.(My opinion)
"We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found."
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Originally Posted by UncleMeat69
"We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found."
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Hey, great thread. I love science, and have a masters in it, but I found I have to put it on a shelf a bit when I'm working my program. My tendency to overanalyze and intellectualize the principles didn't help my spiritual growth in the program. I kept looking for the data, the proof. Show me the double blind with placebo group experiment!!
The stories are the proof. Other women share their stories about how a relationship with a higher power changed their life. The higher power can be anything, anyway you are comfortable imagining it. Make a list of what you want in a "God" it doesn't have to be anyone else's belief.
The quest for knowledge and "proof" can become a slippery slope for me!! I just work the program, like my sponsor demonstrates. I'll leave the research and scientific exploration for when I'm at my job!! And believe me, it took me some TIME to get there!!!
The stories are the proof. Other women share their stories about how a relationship with a higher power changed their life. The higher power can be anything, anyway you are comfortable imagining it. Make a list of what you want in a "God" it doesn't have to be anyone else's belief.
The quest for knowledge and "proof" can become a slippery slope for me!! I just work the program, like my sponsor demonstrates. I'll leave the research and scientific exploration for when I'm at my job!! And believe me, it took me some TIME to get there!!!
Recovered
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I am also a scientist. And a non-theist.
HP= not me. It's that easy. That's as much as I understand. It must be enough because before taking the steps I could not stay sober and after.....well I haven't had to drink or drug in four years. I keep it simple or I would find a loophole and drink about it.
My experience.
HP= not me. It's that easy. That's as much as I understand. It must be enough because before taking the steps I could not stay sober and after.....well I haven't had to drink or drug in four years. I keep it simple or I would find a loophole and drink about it.
My experience.
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Originally Posted by sugarbear1
I'm saying the steps work even if one has no belief (and possibly an opposition to believing) that a higher power exists.
Those steps saved my life.
Those steps saved my life.
Glad they worked so well for you. I can tell that the more I read of the BB and 12&12 it's mostly a matter of language... semantics, pretty much can just wrap my head around the idea presented and not get hung up on the buzz words.
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Originally Posted by mfanch
I am also a scientist. And a non-theist.
HP= not me. It's that easy. That's as much as I understand. It must be enough because before taking the steps I could not stay sober and after.....well I haven't had to drink or drug in four years. I keep it simple or I would find a loophole and drink about it.
My experience.
HP= not me. It's that easy. That's as much as I understand. It must be enough because before taking the steps I could not stay sober and after.....well I haven't had to drink or drug in four years. I keep it simple or I would find a loophole and drink about it.
My experience.
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