bemyself

Hi all at Sec Con - and Happy New Year.

I've just spend much of today reading through all of Tatsy's then flame's theads. Having very rarely spent time here in Sec Con for some time, it was wonderful to see some of the familiar (cough) old members guiding you both. I resonate a LOT with a great deal of both T's and flame's backstories, such that you came to look into RR / AVRT.

I had spent many many hours a few years earlier working through the book (still have it, indeed, brought it out two days ago again, dog eared and heavily underlined / highlighted), and especially the older main threads here - Terminally Unique's and freshstart's later one. Algo has an eerily similar style to that of TU ......but that's neither here nor there. Just my curiosity (always insatiable).

I've posted a bit over in Newcomers this past week or so, telling a little about my seemingly nth 'relapse' - and yes, I'm a veteran of pretty much all that the recovery movement has offered. A very great deal of it has been extremely helpful over the past several years of getting sober, staying sober in earnest - for a while, then back into drinking.

And I find myself experiencing several kinds of grieving and loss should I stop returning to either see some of those people (e.g. at a meeting) or revisiting some of the many helpful materials from rehabs etc. I find my inner resources for coping with grief and loss are much depleted after my sister's suicide (clean and sober 25 years) just over two years ago, on top of heaps of other griefs and losses over the years.

Yet, at the same time, as the years go by, I've experienced a great deal of cognitive dissonance (both within and between the many different approaches), a lot of very intense study in this, then that, but more usually, several approaches to staying sober - all at the same time. Plus I have several reasonably severe mental health and physical health conditions which are lifelong, sometimes 'manageable', often not, so they've added to the mix.

I'm conscious of having made a Big Plan, practiced AVRT...many times, including right to and including even today. And then a reversal of intent. I do know that I've sometimes shocked and baffled the occasional XX member or addiction counsellor or my GP by increasingly having said: 'yes, I was going pretty well (or not) and then one day, I decided to drink'. Even knowing it was a decision is something that's taken me a few years to even acknowledge.

I don't even know quite why I've said all this, as I have substantial ongoing problems (psychologically, if you like) in sustaining / maintaining a serious commitment in virtually all areas of my relatively long life. (Have started schema therapy with a clinical psych in the last couple of months, and we're looking into some of that underlying stuff).

At the same time, I know I can be attracted to an extreme simplicity....yet can't sustain it. And of course, the BP is just that: simple, bald, solemn, and, in effect - as GT recently reminded us readers - 'the pledge'. That latter part , even that word, holds way too much Victorian morality baggage for me, but it did help some (i.e. the Washingtonians and those in the Temperance Movement) in those times. I guess that's why I found some of Trimpey's later prognostications and fulminations on morality in RR:TNC quite distasteful and unhelpful.

Still, I intellectually (being an intellectually-inclined kinda gal) grasp all - or most - of the basics of BP WITH AVRT, and even those more allegedly 'arcane' (wrong word, actually :-) meta-discourses / i.e. thoughts about thinking about thinking etc that GT mentions. (Though I guess you might also say it's partly a type of Socratic questioning, I dunno).

I should add that I've also been impressed hugely by the work and writings of Marc Lewis (Memoirs of An Addicted Brain, and more latterly his excellent Biology of Desire). The latter book in particular resonates with more up to date neuroscience descriptions and 'proofs' (using the word advisedly) of what Trimpey was articulating 25+ years ago about the brain mechanisms of 'Beast' and 'I'. And of course, Lewis is not the only one by any means these days. I do recommend his blog on his website though for some equally excellent discussions on these matters.

And before anyone says: 'so what are you current plans for future drinking?': I am drinking now, after getting through about 20 hours without it, reasonably comfortably overall I might add during which time I was reading the two threads.

Just sticking my head above the ramparts, and to say 'hi' to all of Sec Conners.

PS hello GT! Remember all those intricate debates with TU and our dear mate Robby? I probably stuck my beak in a few times too :-).

GT - I understood your point made during flame's (?) thread about another member not-'thanking' SR posts. Nevertheless, I firmly take the view that it's simply a heartwarming, human thing to do; it does not in itself encourage or cause a kind of 'recovery support dependence', but on the contrary, as so many of us are indeed battling with simply living, with or without active addiction or anywhere in between, often quite alone, it provides the sense of community and connection that we as ordinary humans need, however self-sufficient or independent. Anyway, thank you for continuing to emerge here, to offer your thoughts and experiences to others starting out.

Anyway: tired of doing all the editing for clarity. Once an obsessive editor........

Steely

Got to know you a little there bemyself. Thank you.

I've picked up a drink just because I could , but following my last relapse 63 days ago will never touch the stuff again. And I know "it's a long road that has no turning."

Understanding kindling was a game changer for me as needed evidence that "one was too many." With that knowledge I found acceptance. Take care aussie girl.

And happy New Year.

bemyself

Thanks Steely - forgot you're in Sydney, so still up . I actually started watching (re-watching) 'The Crown' on Netflix so will return to it. I logged on to ask Dee or one of the still awake mods to delete my entire post / thread - as I don't know if I can face all the argumentation / questioning when I log back on again tomorrow our time.

Doesn't matter. Just me, being kinda sick of the debating around addiction and why / when we pick up again (from internally and in response to others).

Thanks for your response though, Steels. x

Steely

I don't like all of the debating and argumentation either bemyself. Kinda turns into intellectual gymnastics, sometimes even wankery, when all I want to do is stop drinking by whatever method I choose. It's the steely's sober struggle modality. Think I'll write a pamphlet

Don't delete your thread it was interesting and thought provoking.

bemyself

Ha! No, too late now to get it deleted. Only logged back on again to say thanks for your responses.

I love the intellectual stuff. For me, it's not wankery. Though it can become decidedly confusing. Just as confusing as the kind of thinking that predominates in most recovery circles. RR / AVRT parsing and the rest is no different, really. In my view / experience, it's mostly down to the often complicated effects - mostly 'unseen from our view' of how our brains work. I say this with some sense of how mine works, with respect to my addiction. [that may set a few cats amongst the pigeons no doubt, but I'll listen again, learn again, and ignore again if necessary. Best part of SR in all its forums. We can talk and listen and work on our lives in between times].

Anyway, I'll return to watching The Crown. Congrats on your recent two months sober - I've had a few of those and more, too. Enjoy it all, every day.

And I'm an old Sydney gal, from birth. Just haven't been since about 1975 or 76. Still have the Sydney nasal bark, though, well, as it was in those days at least :-)

dwtbd

Pretty sure , especially in this little corner of the interwebs, the mods will make sure the 'argumentation' stays rather Socratic , delete nothing, keep intellectualizing
and Happy New Year to those under the down

fini

hi bemyself,
just to add another perspective to the not-thanking:
my first forum didn't have that feature, so for years we all just posted
when i came here, i found that feature baffling and creepy. not saying it IS, just that i found it that way. examined more closely, i realized this: i saw i'd be concerned about caring how many 'likes' i got. in fact, i saw that in my mind, i translated a 'thanks for this useful post' into a 'like', and a kind of popularity hierarchy.
and i wondered how, if i were to use it, i would decide, and what i would do with that. and i know myself enough to know that i'd spend a bunch of time getting caught up in that process.
i have to acknowledge that it can matter to me if/whether posts of mine get a bunch of names underneath or not. see, i like getting 'thanks'.
and i don't like that it matters to me.
it's not a big thing, but it is a thing. about me.

so, you see, what to you is simple kindness, and to GT something else, is to me muddled into my own stuff.

so i decided to avoid it.

and to practice not-caring/detachment from how many /thanks' a post of mine might get.

soberlicious

Hey there bemyself <3

soberlicious

What is wankery? Like hot air? spouting off? or is it more like shenanigans?

bemyself

A very good question, soberlicious. I've often wondered why people use it, myself. One gets it a lot here in Australia, right from one's earlier years, usually a quick n easy target aimed at people who really don't mind some close analysis of some topic or another.

Anyway, that's a partisan answer from the latter kind of person :-)

bemyself

I should clarify / come clean - I earlier said in that I didn't want to be faced with the possible debating etc as to addiction, returning to, etc. What I should have said - I love the debates and intellectual discussions themselves, but felt too tired of the prospect of personally having to 'face the court', as if being a barrister in my own defence. Or some such analogy. Some deep remnant of a lifetime of being criticised / called to account in other areas, whether justly or not. (That, too, has cropped up in the schema therapy landscape of Me. I knew of that tendency already, btw).

Probably one of the many reasons I loved being part of the postgrad academic environment, in the Arts / Humanities e.g. in staff / PhD seminars and the like - people fire all barrels, wonder about this or that part of your argument, and so on. But it's not about YOU. A few interpersonal feathers did get ruffled, including my own, certainly....but then we'd toddle off back to our respective offices, to the library, or out to lunch for a good gasbag. Anyone who became really snarky and destructive would soon be either politely avoided or perhaps have it suggested that they pull their head in :-)

Hmmm. Sounds a bit like SR moderation :-)

bemyself

BTW dear fini - I was feeling too feeble to do more than an equally feeble - and ironic - 'thanks' to your reflections on that aspect. I too have gone through all of what you describe. Nowadays, for some time in fact, I 'thank' when I can (and usually don't bother if the thread is very fast moving). And yes, I do still occasionally find it interesting to note who's done the same to my posts...but don't pay it much mind. I just go 'oh, hey, that's nice that so and so, and so and so, have 'listened''.
I'm afraid I was just a little irked about the original thing about this feature - it sounded a little purist, which is understandable as I said anyway to GT in my post, so I'm not speaking out of school. But it also had a kind of puritan mean spiritedness for having put it in. No matter. My fault for even mentioning the damn thing.

Algorithm

Why do you think that is, bemyself? Is it because the newcomer's forum is so much more supportive than Secular Connections is? The Beast always tries to avoid the floodlight that is AVRT.

Some say that Satan's biggest and most effective lie is that he doesn't exist.

The Beast is similar to Satan in that respect, but it may actually be more creative than Satan. It pretends to be a disease, with multiple causes, and multiple, very mysterious, very indirect solutions.

It even tries to claim the throne of the universe itself, so that it becomes your higher power, over which you are powerless. What better place to ensure itself a lifetime supply of drinks?

You are trying to "take what you like", which is an attractive idea on the surface, but your Beast is taking what IT likes from the various programs, and leaving the rest.

Notice, for example, how IT conveniently took the idea of "strange mental blank spots" (powerlessness) and equated it with vertigo (mobilizing to drink):
There are not "many ways" -- the only way is to abstain, come hell or high water.

No, this explanation simply won't do, bemyself. You absolutely can sustain it, but you chose not to sustain it. You inevitably know this, but the Beast revises the story to "prove" that you are incompetent to abstain.

Quitting may have helped those Victorian prudes back in the day, but things have changed since then, even though alcohol addiction has not changed at all, so quitting won't work for a modern gal like you. Never say never, because there's nothing inherently wrong with drinking, since it's only a symptom, says the Beast.

Jack Trimpey predicted that others would eventually 'discover' elements of AVRT, but reach very different conclusions. This has come to pass. Even Hazelden talks about the limbic system, the pleasure center, and survival drives now, and so does NIDA, but they conclude that the Beast is a disease which 'hijacks' the brain, making addicted people powerless over desire.

Of course, if you are versed in AVRT, you know that the 'hijacked brain' idea supports and suggests more drinking, and is therefore Addictive Voice. Needless to say, the Beast absolutely loves scientific studies on hijacked brains, lousy brain chemistry, and defective neurons. More creative ways for it to suggest more drinking, often at tax payer expense!

So what is your plan for your future use of alcohol and other drugs, bemyself?

You've been at this for years now, buying into the Beastly idea that "it takes what it takes" to find that 'bottom', as you wrote in the post I linked to earlier. Perhaps it's time to stop playing the recovery game, to get a grip, and to create your own moment of clarity?

The process of recovery -- of finding or solving those mysterious causes that make you drink -- is just a context for tentative abstinence, punctuated by ever more destructive 'relapses'.

Your Beast doesn't want to kill you, but it has no morals, and it won't hesitate to drive you into the ground as a "side effect" of its perverse agenda. I suggest you drive it into the ground first, before you become collateral damage.

bemyself

Hm. Algo: it's this level of casuistry which I knew would be coming my way, which prompted me this morning to frantically try to get the thread closed. For reasons known only to me and a mod, I chose to keep it going,as a free-ranging discussion.

Because: Sec Connections encompasses ALL of the following:

Alternatives to 12 Step Recovery
Recovery from Alcohol and Substance Abuse
LifeRing-Smart-SOS, CBT, AVRT, Problem Solving, Self Management, Self-Empowerment, Rational Thinking, Positive Lifestyle Changes, Self Assessment, Commitment and Follow-Through, Self-Acceptance, Motives and Goals, Peer Support.

And do not even begin the mind-closing thing - which is the same, but just by a different focus, as in the more-zealous parts of AA, and I should know - to denigrate my supportive friendships and camaraderie of anywhere, whether online here or offline IRL. I won't respond to your bait, as it's my thread.

bemyself

My one and only point to you Algo - you clearly have NOT read the work of Marc Lewis, or any of those who have debunked the 'brain DISEASE' notion, which Hazelden and others still subscribe to.

Gimme a break. Please go and lecture someone else, who doesn't know what you're talking about. Smug gurus, shadow-boxers, or gaslighters, or 100% experts of any kind not welcome here in my thread, thanks. Just real, ordinary people.

Algorithm

You know it's not personal, bemyself, nor is it accusing you of denial, or denigrating your friendships, here or elsewhere. I'm telling you that you can beat this, but to the Beast, that is a mortal threat, and it responds accordingly.

You're not dealing with an enlightened, benevolent entity, that you can wax philosophically with, as in academia. You are dealing with a rogue mentality that is absolutely ruthless.

soberlicious

Algo is right Bemyself...you can recover.

The fact that you are basically accepting drinking as "the way it is" makes me very sad.

Please fight for your life.

bemyself

Listen. I didn't revisit Sec Con to be lectured by the likes of you, Algo. I like to come back here from time to time, to see what everyone's up to, and to put in my bit if I feel so moved. I know nothing about your history here on SR let alone Sec Con - and certainly nothing about your actual personal drinking or recovery story.

For all I know, from that lack of info, I can only assume that you know nothing about MY history here with SR. With heaps of people. One of whom (Robby Robot) we joined for the before, during and in his dying, and after. It was over many months, and highly emotional in all the best and lowest ways. He was a huge part of the original AVRT threads, whilst ALSO being a member of AA. He was many decades sober, and with some quite severe physical disabilities. I took much of my current inspiration for 'take what you need' attitudes from him and others. Above all: he inspired, personally encouraged, loved, laughed, cried, got silly.....with so many of us. All over the SR boards. He didn't discriminate, or lecture from one position or t'other. I miss him very deeply from this community, and I know that many others do too.

I miss him because of his ability to see life flexibly, with nuance, in all its glories and its pains, and just the quotidian in between. He generally scoffed at theorising - yet could hold his own with those of us who liked it. He had his own story, he told it. He shared it with us, mostly people he'd never met nor would ever meet (though I was welcomed to come visit him and his gorgeous wife in Canada if I could practically ever get there).

A generosity of spirit, Algo. A generosity. And a flexible mind. I'm not sure yet, but I shall either hit 'ignore' on your posts here in my thread (for I generally find them useful elsewhere) or I shall again ask for this thread to be closed. My call, not yours - you might need to step back from dominating.

Dee74

Closed by request OP

D