ClayTheScribe

I posted this over in the 12-step forum, so I thought I'd post it here:

I'm an atheist and I had someone tell me on the Mental Health board that AA could be beneficial to atheists, so I thought I'd share my questions here too. I just don't see how an AA works through these steps without believing in Him:

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.

I've been told atheists can substitute "God" for something like "higher self." But, for example, with 5, why do I need to admit my wrongs to my higher self when my higher self knows what I've done better than me--same thing with God for that matter. It's like asking forgiveness from a God who's already forgiven you before you did your wrong. With 6, that's asking myself to remove my own defects? Asking yourself to remove your defects is not giving yourself up to a higher power. And 11, that's so specific to the Christian God, I'd love to hear somebody spin that one. Sorry to be so cynical, but I really don't see AA working for atheists, but I'm open to advice.

And I'm skeptical if I get into AA, they're gonna try to turn me into a Christian, as others have told me in their experiences, and I'm not having that. I'm also kind of weary of support groups because my problems are so much less than others. Case in point, I went to a dual diagnosis meeting (addiction and mental illness) this week and when I was talking about how I was stressed out about graduating college, one of the people there started laughing, which sent me into a tailspin and almost made me drink later that night. And other people in the group seemed hostile toward me as most of these people came from recovery homes and had much worse drinking and mental disorders than me. I know my problems may seem trivial to people who are worse off, but they still matter to me.

I may try to go to an AA meeting for young people tomorrow though I'm very weary.

paulmh

Seriously, if you have so many reservations about AA, why go?

Pagekeeper

Clay,

Thanks for your post. I could've written the exact same thing a year ago. And that is proof for me. AA can work for those of us who do not fall under the umbrella of organized religion because our experiences can help others.

As for the word GOD.

(Alcoholics Anonymous, pg 47).

The word God is used as a spiritual expression. The spiritual experience offered by the 12 steps does not predict the outcome. In other words, it promises a spiritual experience to those who take the steps, but it doesn't mandate the type of experience one will have.

The last "pertinent idea" in "How It Works," is:

That God could and would if He were sought.

If he were sought, not if he were found.

For me, spirituality is that journey. Tomorrow I will have been sober for 1 year. I wouldn't call myself anything at this point, as that would mean I've arrived, and thus far I love the journey and where it takes me off the beaten path. I'm free.

All quotes from AA 1st Ed.

Bamboozle

Sometimes AA is the only game in town. I think it's great that Clay is asking these questions.

KariSue

I'm an atheist mom of an addicted son. I was wondering the same types of things about going to a group for families of addicts (Nar Anon). I went to two meetings. I'm wondering if, at the first meeting, the leader was a non believer himself as he said "If you don't believe in a higher power then just pretend you do." That wouldn't work for me but it made me think.

I can't pretend that I believe something I don't but I figured I could just ignore all the religious references. It's a bit hard cause there are a lot. Especially when a member speaking expresses frustration and they say they just have to give their worries over to their higher power. In my mind, it's like me saying "I realize this is something I cannot control so I have to find some strategies to help myself through this." I don't have to hand it to anybody but maybe someone else feels better believing that there is someone else. I've gotta admit it is a comforting thought. Not true in my mind but comforting. It would be pretty sweet if there were a God....but alas....

I didn't stop going to meetings because of the group. I stopped going because, like you, it seemed their problems are way worse than anything I'm experiencing with my son. Honestly it just depressed me being there. I felt so incredibly sorry for one woman with a teenage daughter who was into drugs really bad. The mom herself had cancer and the husband was there too. He had to deal with his wife who was very sick and his daughter. He looked broken. They couldn't ask her to leave their home because she was a minor. Really bad stuff.

BUT, that said, if I got to the point that some of them are at, I would go back. What is nice is that they gave me the phone numbers of people I could call anytime of the day or night. I feel confident that I could ignore (although it would be hard) the religious references.

I think in any situation you can ignore the parts you don't like and get the benefit of the parts you do. I didn't say it was easy to ignore but if you feel bad enough and that is all that is available then I could see where it could work. You just have to go into it with the right attitude I suppose.

If you go into the Secular Connections part of this forum they talk about something called SmartRecovery I believe. I checked and it's in our city but there are not many chapters nationwide. Possibly something like that would make you more comfortable.

Just some thoughts....

KariSue

paulmh

Bam -

No question there.

No questions there either - except for the ones that the OP poses, then answers.

No questions there either.

What "questions" are we talking about?

NoelleR

Hey Clay ----

Not only can atheists work the AA Program, they do; I and most of my recovered friends worked the AA Program as atheists, and all have 20+ years clean and serene, and happy, joyous and free...! Of course, one of the first things one must know is to ignore all the folks who say things like...: 'get god or get drunk' or 'that's not how you work that step' Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah......

"...I just don't see how an AA works through these steps without believing in Him:

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out..."

3. remember that step only says to 'make a decision' and that can be over to the care of ................ whatever you find to be 'a power greater than you.' BUT, the turning over does not have to be now, only the decision to do so......whenever.....

"...with 5, why do I need to admit my wrongs to my higher self when my higher self knows what I've done better than me--same thing with God for that matter. It's like asking forgiveness from a God who's already forgiven you before you did your wrong..."

5. the admitting in step 5 is a humbling experience.....(and btw, even in Christianity, God does not forgive till asked....and here and now is neither the time nor place for a theological/docrinal discussion). If you want, rewrite step 5 leaving off the word 'G0d'

6. try.....: Were entirely ready to have all these defects of character removed/gone.

7. try........: Humbly asked for our shortcomings to be gone.

11. try........: Sought to improve our conscious contact with (like you said) our higher self, only looking for the knowledge and the power to carry out what is best for us. ...............how's that spin, Clay?

"...Sorry to be so cynical, but I really don't see AA working for atheists, but I'm open to advice..."

Like I said earlier on, most of my recivered friends are atheists, and they're all sober thru AA, so it can be done.....

Welcome to the road of happy destiny..... (o:


NoelleR
DOS: 6/23/86

P.S. Just remember, all those 'christians' say that they ask god every morning to keep them sober, and thank him every evening for doing so.....they seem to forget that their god gave them free will, which he would never usurp......therefore, if they wanted to pick up, he would NOT stop them.....something to think about.

Bamboozle

Hmm...these look like questions to me:

Bamboozle

Just because he answered his questions doesn't mean there aren't any questions.

He still asked them.

You can ignore his post or continue to be unhelpful. Your choice.

Zencat

As a Buddhist, this is what I have done to the following steps that make them relevant to my life and the spiritual practice that will bring greater harmony into it.


3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of Buddhism.
5. Admitted to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have the practice of Buddhism to remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly practiced Buddhism to remove our shortcomings.
11. Sought through meditation to improve my conscious contact with my original mind, mediating only for this awareness and the power to carry that out.

The point of my spiritual practice is to open me up to the wonder of living in the present moment. That could be called a spiritual awaking and for me the the spiritual life is: having reverence for all things. As an non-theist I'm finding more similarities between the 12-step program of AA than there is not compared to the path I'm on.

ClayTheScribe

This is what I was afraid of. People getting all defensive over 12-step. That's fine. Here's my QUESTIONS:

How does an atheist work though these steps?

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. ?
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. ?
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. ?
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out. ?



What's the OP?

I've been told atheists can substitute "God" for something like "higher self." But, for example, with 5, why do I need to admit my wrongs to my higher self when my higher self knows what I've done better than me? same thing with God for that matter. It's like asking forgiveness from a God who's already forgiven you before you did your wrong. With 6, that's asking myself to remove my own defects? Asking yourself to remove your defects is not giving yourself up to a higher power. And 11, that's so specific to the Christian God, can anyone spin that to work for an atheist?. (As someone did rather than throw attitude.) Sorry to be so cynical, but I really don't see AA working for atheists, but I'm open to advice.



Don't be a snob 'cause you don't like the points I'm raising. In that case just don't post at all.

MycoolFitz

Often we imagine that there’s some particular thing or entity—God, say—that made the world and now runs it. With such a notion in place, we soon start talking about this entity as if it had attributes like us—as if it had wants and desires. We talk of the “will of God.” Soon we’re developing ideas of how people should comply with God’s will.

But if we look carefully at this, we’ll discover that this is just our putting our ideas of God—that is, our will—onto unwilled nature, onto Reality. If we think of God—or whatever overarching principle we might have in mind—as being “out there.” We should realize that all we are doing is projecting our own attitude, our own view, our own small mind, on the world and on others

Try this?

1. We admitted our addictive craving over alcohol, and recognized its consequences in our lives.
2. Came to believe that a power other than self could restore us to wholeness.
3. Made a decision to go for refuge to this other power as we understood it.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to ourselves and another human being the exact moral nature of our past.
6. Became entirely ready to work at transforming ourselves.
7. With the assistance of others and our own firm resolve, we transformed unskillful aspects of ourselves and cultivated positive ones.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed.
9. Made direct amends to such people where possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. In addition, made a conscientious effort to forgive all those who harmed us.
10. Continue to maintain awareness of our actions and motives, and when we acted unskillfully promptly admitted it.
11. Engaged through the practice of meditation to improve our conscious contact with our true selves, and seeking that beyond self. Also used prayer as a means to cultivate positive attitudes and states of mind.
12. Having gained spiritual insight as a result of these steps, we practice these principles in all areas of our lives, and make this message available to others in need of recovery.
__________________________________________________ _____________________

McGowdog

Original Poster.

ClayTheScribe

The most useful post so far that actually answered my questions. Thank you. I will keep that in mind when I go to my first AA meeting tonight.

As for your P.S. I'm not that judgmental on Christians as I would not want to them to judge me harshly. Whatever works. If they can work out the conflicted teachings of Christianity and what God is and isn't, all the power to 'em. Just don't expect me to buy into it.

Thanks,
Clay

ClayTheScribe

Ooh I really like this set too. I'm gonna see if the AA meeting I go to and my future sponsor will let me use these, or do I not have to ask permission? Still not sure how AA works completely.

Can you consider your spirit, or higher self, that greater power?

sfgirl

There are agnostic AA meetings. I have never gone but you can check out this site: Agnostic A.A. Meetings in New York City

I am not in AA nor am I an atheist (however, I am not and never have been religious), but I am going to take a stab at this post.

I think there is a tendency to take the steps and very literally interpret them. I don't think that this is necessary. For me personally if I do this I don't understand most of them. I have to accept not fully understanding a lot of them. Even without having a definite concept of god, if I change the wording to a "power greater than myself" it still makes no sense. That being said, at the beginning of recovery, perhaps because I couldn't understand their exact wording I read a lot of different works interpreting the steps. In reading different ways in which people interpret the steps, you can come to appreciate them in many different ways. I think as long as you are not too rigid with the language and adhere to the adage of "take what you want and leave the rest" that the steps can offer some amount of help to every single person in recovery. Some of the literature I read was women centered, like A woman's way through the Twelve Steps. Another really good book which perhaps would be more suited for you is One Breath at a Time: Buddhism and the Twelve Steps. You can also search the internet for reinterpretations to the steps to help you flesh them out.

As for specific groups trying to convert you or being super religious, I think if you feel that way about a group you are going to then you should switch to another. Different AA groups have different feels. I have only been to a handful of meetings but in my limited experience have definitely felt major differences between meetings.

With something like the 11th step, I go to a Buddhist recovery meditation group, and they often bring up the 11th step as one of the first links they saw between the 12 steps and Buddhism because of the word "meditation." Again if you do not rigidly adhere to the wording, and think of it as the act of praying OR meditating then it can either be an act involving god or a secular act. Either way, however, it is likely to aid in recovery in my opinion.

Also— I think— as was my case— that if AA, the group, attending meetings, etc. doesn't work for you that the 12 steps and reading about them can enhance your recovery.

otterbearcat

Hi Clay,

You might also consider SMART Recovery. If you find AA doesnt work for you
They may have meetings in your area.
But resources are also available online.

from the website:

SMART Recovery® has a scientific foundation, not a spiritual one. SMART Recovery® teaches increasing self-reliance, rather than powerlessness. SMART Recovery® views addictive behavior as a maladaptive habit, rather than as a disease. SMART Recovery® meetings are discussion meetings in which individuals talk with one another, rather than to one another. SMART Recovery® encourages attendance for months to years, but probably not a lifetime. There are no sponsors in SMART Recovery®. SMART Recovery® discourages use of labels such as "alcoholic" or "addict".

ClayTheScribe

Thanks for the suggestions. I just posted this in the 12-step recovery board and it applies here:

People have been seemingly bending over backward to try to explain how AA can work without a belief in God which I appreciate but it doesn't really connect with me or seem comfortable. I just got back from my first AA meeting and needless to say, I don't think it's for me. It seemed too cult-like to me (no offense), there was too much God talk, including the prayer, the group was too big and I don't want to have to figure out how to adjust the steps with my beliefs, on top of doing the steps, which are hard enough. I'm gonna stick to going to my therapist and going to LifeRing meetings. The group was much smaller, more rational and I felt more comfortable there. I wouldn't have to worry about going back and forth with a sponsor about coordinating the steps without a belief in God. Plus I really don't think my alcohol problem is bad enough to warrant doing the 12 steps, and no I am not in denial.

Thanks again for your help all,

Clay

P.S.: If you're going to attack me for "bad mouthing" AA, please do it in a private message to me. I don't want to start more of that back and forth crap on the forum. And again, I'm not saying AA is bad, I know it works for millions, just not my style.


I'm choosing LifeRing because the only SMARTRecovery meeting in my state is in Colorado Springs and I don't have the time or the gas to travel that far.

McGowdog

Doubt too many will be offended over here! You don't connect with A.A. We get it.

You asked a few questions and some people really poured their souls out to answer you.

You thanked us, on the one hand, but then you keep mentioning that we've bent over backwards to make a program to fit you.

I mean no offense to you, but you're just not that important. Whether you get nothing out of these responses or not doesn't mean that I won't. There's a lot of good recovery on here from both sides of the fence and I'm going to enjoy reading some of them.

No, this simply is not true. Those of us who do the 12 Steps do not ask God every morning to keep us sober, nor do we thank Him every night for doing so.

"When we retire at night, we constructively review our day." And there are 9 other things we do, none of which are thank God for a day of sobriety. We are in a position of neutrality, safe and protected. "We have not even sworn off." "Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us."

"On awakening, we look at the 24 hours ahead. We consider our plans for the day. Before we begin, we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest, or self-seeking motives."

Then there's some 14 other things we do, none of which are asking God to keep us sober.

otterbearcat

Let us know how LifeRing works out for you.

Id be interested...