NoelleR

Hey There Bubba ---

I just thought it was time for me to add a wee bit more of my ES&H to this thread, as I have worked the 12 steps of AA/NA as an atheist.....


1) "...I'm still confused. I understand God or higher power could be anything, like electricity, but giving your life over to electricity can't keep you sober..."

An absolutely valid and timely point....just a brief reminder....: never worry about a step till you're there (LOL).....I agree; I always thought the idea electricity or a doorknob (jeesh!) to be condescending and ignorant statements made by folks who don't understand atheism atall....just remember, Step 2 only says to come to believe that there is a power greater than my self (and when I walked thru the doors of AA, that was just about everything and everyone); it does NOT say we have to define what/who that HP is....and, although many AAer's say a prayer where they 'turn their will and life over to the god of their understanding, Step 3 does NOT say we have to do that NOW; it only requires that we make a decision to do so.......which is all I did, and then I immediately moved on to Step 4.

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2) "... powerless?...it seems the 12 steps are predicated on that. Can I not feel empowered to stop drinking?..."

Absolutely, you can be...and are empowered...to stop; if folks were not empowered to stop, then nobody would get sober or find recovery---it's that pesky 'staying stopped' that's usually the problem. For me, the 'powerlessness' was when I put alcohol, or any other drugs, in my system; I was truly powerless to stop till.....whoops, here comes my alergic reaction to said substances.............handcuffs!!!!.....LOLOL

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3) "...As far as my spiritual beliefs go, I believe I have a higher self, or my spirit or essence, that inhabits my soul..."

That's the ticket!!!! I know AA, and AAer's say we can choose anything for our higher power/god/whatever, as long as it not ourselves.....Well, that's exactly what I did, and it's worked for 23+ years.....Of course, I didn't use myself as I was upon entering the doors of AA; I used the person I would be tomorrow as long as I did not pick up today.....etc., etc., etc., yadda, yadda, yadda.... (o:

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4) "...How can I incorporate those beliefs into the 12 steps?..."

I can't tell you how to incorporate your specific beliefs into AA's 12 steps; all I can do is show you how I incorporated mine.....as an ardent atheist who has managed to work the 12 steps in my own way, regardless of what some others may have thought or even said.....

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So, Clay, rather than worrying about future steps, start on that first step and see if you can't see any powerlessness in your drinking/drugging and any unmanageableness in your life, probably stemming from said drinking/using.....I know that if I had had any power over my drinking/drugging while I was in my addiction---if my life had been manageable.....well, heck....!....I wouldn't have needed any of those steps at all.....but then, that's just moi............. (o:

I'm keeping positive thoughts put there for you, Clay.


NoelleR

SelfSeeking

You can be an atheist, an alcoholic (a REAL one, lol), and recover through AA. (Rob.) This subforum is for people who are following that path. We do exist and it is ok to feel drawn to AA, but conflicted because of the G word. It is fine to think things through "out loud" here.

ClayTheScribe

[QUOTE=Rob B;2293360]Clay,
Do you know if you are alcoholic? There are all types of drinkers, not all of them are alcoholic. Do yourself a favor and find out what you are.[QUOTE]

I've just been going by the medical definition of an alcoholic which is someone who can't stop drinking despite alcohol's negative consequences in his or her life. In that regard my drinking was cutting the efficacy of my psych meds, making me depressed most times after drinking, not to mention making me late. I also grew a strong tolerance to alcohol. I drank 3-4 times a week with the intent to get drunk. Have I ever got to a point where I woke up and started drinking and stayed drunk throughout the day? No. But my habit was presenting enough negatives into my life that I had to stop. I don't need to question what alcohol can do to me, I'm simply questioning the steps as an atheist.

Alcohol was an inconvenience to my regular schedule of doing things my way, especially when I had to hide it. I think sobriety is the better choice. I don't know where I'll be in 10 or 5 days with my sobriety, but today I didn't drink.

Misunderstandings are bound to happen when all you can cull about a person is from a few posts. Now you have more of the facts and you can PM me to know more.

I don't know that labels matter so much as knowing I have a problem with alcohol and therefore I have to stay clean. Recovery is not a hobby for me, it's been hard but necessary because I am graduating from college next month, I'm doing an internship Monday-Friday, working on the weekends and taking two classes. I can no longer afford to have alcohol continue to disrupt my life. Will that mean I drink in 30 days? I hope not. I know it's a cliche but I'm really trying to take it a day at a time because if I overwhelm myself, I'll want to drink. Can you explain what you meant further by "However, early recovery is not a hobby to be pursued against the backdrop of managing your life status quo." I'm sorry if I gave the impression it was a hobby, it hasn't been that way to me. I'm just questioning AA and 12-step with atheists, but of course expect defensive comments. I'll just sift through to the helpful ones.

Thanks,

Clayton

littlefish

The way I have understood it, and I may be wrong, is that in AA the word powerless is used specifically in relation to alcohol. I don't think the idea is that we are simply powerless as human beings. The stress is on "We are powerfless in the face of alcohol".

I understand completely your reservations in relation to the connection of God to the 12 steps.
My approach has been to understand that AA and the 12 steps were borne out of a religious movement, but I can apply it any way I wish in my own recovery. (AA later disassociated itself from this movement and concentrated specifically on alcohol addiction, yet continued to use religiously-inspired ideas in the AA program). Another key element in the AA philosophy comes from Jungian psychology and the concept that a spiritual awakening is important to the process of recovery. Again, this spiritual awakening is not defined.
I realize the religious connection turns a lot of people off, but the methodology of the 12 steps can be very effective, and it is no surprise that for example the secular Minnesota method is based on the 12 steps.
In my area, there are no secular alternatives to AA. So, AA is all I have, but I am content to use it because I find that it includes a lot of activities I find useful: speakers, conventions, workshops, etc.
I also use an addiction treatment center where I have a therapist, so I don't restrict myself solely to the AA program.

paulmh

These quotes are from the Big Book. They don't seem that different from what you've said yourself. Also I would question whether or not someone who believes in reincarnation is an atheist. I seem to remember that reincarnation is a metaphysical rather than a physical belief.

Ultimately all these things are pretty dry and academic. It's our experience of recovery which is living. I find it hard to describe what "Higher Power" means to me. You seem much more specific in your beliefs. I would've thought that would've made it easier rather than harder?

Rob B

Check yourself, your comment seems to be based on past experience with me, and has little to do with what I actually posted. I would like to see Clay happy, content and sober, I was offering to help. I could care less if he uses AA, God, or secular methods.

I am mindful of what forum this is and respect the belief systems here.

McGowdog

Welcome back, Rob.

In any case, you probably won't see us much over here in this subforum. There's not much reason for me to be over here, except in the fact that we have a couple of simiarities. We both seek some form of a 12 step solution of recovery, and we both are unable to "define" or "comprehend" some form of a Higher Power, even if we wanted to.

I'm learning that we all have to at times face and acknowlege our current agnosticism or perhaps our current atheistic beliefs. It's a wonderful tool to use and starting point when faced with our 1st Step. The 12 Step Recovery subforum over in the Alcoholism section is full of people who were going down a road that was anything but godly... so we're not necessarily a bunch of experts with regards to oganized religion in the first place. But if any of us were, I think we'd have to be truthful to admit that it wasn't getting us too far in the "sober" department. No... we had to start over on a new foundation... one withOUT God.

digderidoo

I have a similar sort of belief system to this.

For me incorporating this belief into step 3 means making a commitment to a spiritual path, i can either step onto that path or step off. Stepping on means i am making a commitment to step 3.

The AA program, helps to heal the physical, the mental and the spiritual...whatever that spiritual belief system is.

But as i have said before you seem to be trying to work it all out at once before jumping into AA. Beyond step 3, i have not got to the point that where i wonder how to put that belief system into the rest of the steps. But i don't worry about it because the AA keeps me sober. If the AA is not for you, then find something that works for you, i do wonder however whether you want AA to work for you as you keep asking these questions.

Paul

ClayTheScribe

"With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves."

OK, that sounds like it could fit with my spiritual beliefs in that I think the life force that flows through everything is greater than me, but its power is expressed through living beings. It's a power I draw off of, not one that hovers over me and decides how the universe is to be ordered. It's the hum behind the evolving universe.

"We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us."

I don't expect to find a He or a God or an omniscient being inside of me except maybe my higher self.

Reincarnation is a belief seen throughout many faiths and philosophies, including among non-theistic Buddhists. Reincarnation simply says you as a spirit live more than one physical life. God has nothing to do with it in that I don't believe an omniscient being allows reincarnation to happen and chooses my life path for me. Atheism simply means you don't believe in a God, though some have turned it into a religion with strict beliefs only in what's rational, scientific and what they can see in front of them, therefore no beliefs in reincarnation or an after life and I'm friends with some of these people. And I'm not an agnostic because I have no doubt in my beliefs that there is no creator. I have a different understanding/beliefs about the universe and existence. Mine just doesn't include a creator. I hope that makes sense. If my beliefs don't make me a true atheist according to zealous atheists' beliefs, then fine, call me whatever you want. Those are my beliefs as of this moment.

You would think so right? haha I suppose I can be overly analytical sometimes.

I had an illuminating conversation today with a co-worker who's in NA and AA and he's been clean 15 months. He shot some scenarios at me and asked how I would cope with them, just on my own. I had to think. Basically he was suggesting that I would need a higher power to cope. I said I would go see my therapist and he said the therapist could be a power greater than me, and that I should just start getting used to looking at what could be powers greater than me, but not to consider another person as God. I agreed that would put too much pressure on said person. Then I suggested I could use truth as my higher power, but he said the problem with that is it's negotiable. There's many different truths, half truths and partial truths. I suggested that journalism is a power greater than myself I believe in, at which point he just said that he can't understand it for me, it has to be a God of my understanding. I think I've just been getting too hung up on the G word and not focusing on the "power greater than yourself" part. I'm kind of split on what I should choose as my higher power: the universe, the life force/mass consciousness, journalism, my higher self, etc. He also told me the higher self becomes a problem as a higher power because it's still relying on yourself and I believe my higher self lives through me.

Nonetheless, I can accept Step 1, that in the face of alcohol, I am powerless, either because I always have to get drunk when I drink--and deal with a hangover and depression the next day--or if I drink a few, I feel depressed right when I stop drinking, or simply that I'm powerless over the chemical reaction alcohol has with my meds, which is it makes them less effective and makes me more depressed and anxious. I understand that I was powerless over my drinking and what it did to me and that because I was having to sneak alcohol in the house and was late to work and the internship and its effect on my mood was making my life less manageable. I can't say that my life was in enough of a tail spin that my whole life was unmanageable due to my drinking, but my drinking had become unmanageable to where I couldn't even manage to have a few drinks with friends and it not create a problem. I'm sure with what I just said people will want to say I'm in denial, which is fine, but I felt I already went through the denial phase last month when I was trying to manage my drinking, come up with excuses for why I needed to drink, tell myself I could just have a few drinks around people because I don't drink as much around others, and it just didn't work. I feel that I'm there and I understand Step 1. When should/can one start Step 2 or do I need to process it further?

I appreciate your continued feedback everyone. This forum has been such a source of support, inspiration, challenging questions, challenging answers and kinship.

Thanks,

Clayton

ClayTheScribe

I'm definitely trying to figure it all out before I go in. I have a tendency of doing that. I think that comes from being a journalist; we want the whole picture and now. I know now that I should just focus on Step 1. I just want to give AA a chance because I know it has helped many people and people here and elsewhere have stressed that I give it a try. I suppose what I'm battling with is whether a "rational," scientific approach ie, CBT therapy, LifeRing would be better or if my alcohol abuse stemmed from a spiritual problem, or whether a spiritual path/answer will keep me sober. I'm willing to try it just to see if it works, it's just my stubborn brain's getting caught up on the God part. But for now I'll just try to work on Step 1, which I'm still wondering how I work it out. Is it simply admitting you're powerless over alcohol and your life is unmanageable or do you have to do more?

digderidoo

I think we all may have tried to figure it out before we go in. When i say all i mean all of us in the secular forums. As for want the whole picture now, all alcoholics/addicts i have met are like that, including myself. The program are called steps for a reason.

Again it takes time and only experience will teach you the steps. I work the steps slowly, in no rush, and get the wisdom of the steps through experience. I can't tell you how to work it, you have to figure it out for yourself, all i can say is what worked for me. It's kind of like trying to describe the effect of marijuana to someone who hasn't experienced it, you can tell them what it's like but they're not going to know until they have tried it.

When i first came to AA i knew and had admitted to myself that i was an alcoholic that i was powerless over alcohol, but did this mean i had got step 1? If i had got step 1 and knew that i was powerless then surely the desire i had to just take one drink, to just drink normal, to think one night will not hurt will go away?? So why did i at times think i could possibly have one night, that maybe one day i could drink normal, that maybe one day i could have a glass of wine with a meal? The reason...because i obviously hadn't got step 1 and still thought that potentially i might have still held a little bit of power over alcohol.

I knew i was powerless through experiencing trying to drink normal. Now i am not suggesting that you do this, this is what happened to me. On my birthday in April last year i thought i could go one night out with friends having a drink, two weeks later on FA cup final day....thats football (er sorry soccer to you lol), my son phones me up telling me he has spent his bus fare home so i picked him up after drinking a bottle and a half of wine. On the way home i truly realised that i was powerless, that i couldn't pick up one drink. I wished i could say that was the end of it, but i drank for three more weeks, finally going out on my friends birthday 30th May 2008, with the intentions of only drinking budweisers like my friends and keeping at their pace. What happened was i did drink budweisers, but two or three times more than my friends. All of this was six weeks after i went out for my birthday for 'one night of drinking'. During those six weeks, i had experienced drunkeness, black outs, cravings after the first drink, had some days off, drank when i was happy, when i was sad, when i was angry and when i wanted to party.

I finally realised that alcohol had beaten me, that i cannot take just one drink, from that day and each day since i have lost my desire to ever drink again. I have since heard that when many fully get this powerlessness, that the desire goes, it did for me. The following day i was happy that i knew i couldn't drink anymore, it was like a new way of life was in front of me and i was ready for it. I felt such a release, like a weight had lifted from my shoulders, i can only describe it as a 'road to Damascus' experience, but without Jesus. I was driving home in the morning from a friends i had stopped at, i knew i may have been over the limit still, i was picking my kids up yet again with alcohol still inside me, i knew that i couldn't drink anymore and looking forward to whatever that may bring.

But did that mean i got step 1??

Well step 1 goes futher than that....'that our lives had become unmanageable'

We all know how unmanageable are lives are when we drink, but the step doesn't say 'when we drink', it just says 'our lives had become unmanageable'. For me this unmanageability is the 'ism' in alcoholism, it's the things that make me want to drink. I learnt this through experience again. I tried to do it on my own, i tried to stay away from AA, for all the reasons you have mentioned, God, etc. What i found though is if i do stay away from other recovering alcoholics that i start getting stressed and anxious at the days sh*t. I came to realise after trying to stay sober on my own that my life was unmanageable, that i do not think like so called 'normal' people, that all my 'isms' of the alcoholism comes to the fore and this has the potential to make me want to drink.

But all of that is just me, you however have to figure this out by your own experience and your own path. IMO the only way you're going to figure out whether AA will work for you is to experience it, rather than let me and everyone else here try to explain to you how it works.

I wish you well in whatever path your sobriety takes.

Paul

sfgirl

I just wanted to highlight this. I think this is a really good way to think about it. I don't think you need to conform your ideas to the rules but you can use the steps as a framework to help you think about things. To get too bogged down in the actual words isn't that helpful. Honestly I don't understand the "higher power" concept at all. I take it more in Noelle's way and that works fine for me. I don't understand it needing to be outside and away from my self especially if ultimately in a lot of theology we aren't necessarily separated from the divine. It probably is more about separating from one some people call the "smaller self" or the part of you that is full of desire, the ego part. But the spiritual part whether that is god-related or not in your mind also exists within you.


To appeal to your journalistic mind I thought that you might like this:

A Brain Scientist With A 'Stroke Of Insight' : NPR

A brain scientist has a stroke, loses function of her cognitive function and has an experience of the divine but is able to describe it in a very scientific, matter of fact way. The other thing is that sometimes trying to understand all of the steps completely rationally and cognitively is coming at them in the wrong way, IMO. A lot of it is a more right-brain exercise— at least for me.

littlefish

I think along similar lines. The lack of a definition of a higher power in AA has given me free reign to eliminate ideas such as a conscious deity. Yet, because of this lack of definition, someone else may choose exactly that same idea as the basis of their faith....

I went into AA as a person who vigorously rejects organized religion due to having negative experiences with it. That experience meant that I rejected a great deal about religion and spirituality at a young age and essentially have lived most of my life without spirituality.

The interesting thing about working on the steps and particularly 2 and 3 is that I approached spirituality on my own terms and began a process of seeking. That process took me to places I never would have visited before, such as learning about Buddhism, meditation and looking at sacred scriptures far outside of my own "faith". I am intrigued by the whole process because, unlike the religious teaching of my own background, I've given myself the freedom and permission so to speak, to find my own faith. And, none of this would have ever started without step 2, or AA.

I can't say what my belief is, I certainly haven't finished seeking.

My sponsor reminds me that I don't have to define it all for myself all at once, either. That I can return to step two and deepen my understanding in the coming years.

fashion33

Thanks Clay for this post. I am agnostic and new to recovery, questioning how the 12 steps can help. I know that the definition of God can be different for everyone, but I still worry that many people in AA will define God in a way that I don't (a religious way), and there will be too much emphasis on this. I also worry that I would be judged because my drinking problem is not as severe as others; I fear being laughed at like you were! Its nice to know there are people in a similar situations trying to find ways to stop drinking, and that there are other options than AA.

ClayTheScribe

Well it's good to know too that I'm not alone. Just be careful where in this forum you question the 12 steps. The people on the Secular boards are pretty cool and easy-going, but some people on the Alcoholism and 12-step boards can get pretty defensive if you question their "way."

Most people in the AA meeting I went seemed to define God along religious lines, except for at least one. I'm still skeptical about being converted but others here have assured me that shouldn't be a main concern and they're probably right. There is a prayer to God at the end of most AA meetings, or at least the one I went to and you may decide to just sit it out as I did.

Unlike my dual diagnosis meeting, I never got the sense that I would be laughed at for how non-severe my alcohol problem was in AA. People laughed, but it was with the person because they could relate to what the person was saying and it was healthy. My dual diagnosis meeting was with people who have addiction and mental health problems, more severe than mine, and that was just one guy who was having a bad day.

I think AA actually might come easier to you since you're an agnostic since you're still somewhat open to the possibility of a God, but I might be wrong. If you're apprehensive about AA, then I would first recommend checking out LifeRing, SMARTRecovery and Rational Response, and also find yourself a therapist who specializes in addiction counseling, no matter how severe or not severe your problem. I have nothing against a spiritual approach like AA, but I think one needs to have a scientific, medical approach to addiction as well.

Welcome to SR. Keep posting. There's a lot of great and helpful people around here.

Thanks,
Clay

shockozulu

Just a quick reminder that this forum is for those who are taking a secular approach to the twelve steps. Thanks to all of you for the great posts.