paulmh

Penn and Teller: Twelve Step Programs Are Bullsh** - I kind of disagree sort of | Neurological Correlates

I identified with this guy a lot! Even though he's not an alkie, I think he's got a pretty good handle on what 12 step programmes achieve.

doorknob

Good read, Paul!

If I processed it correctly, he's saying that the 12 Steps compensate for the emotional and behavioral deficiencies caused by brain damage incurred from chronic substance abuse.

yeahgr8

It was a great read thanks, i have thought about this quite a bit, with a little slant on the program and the wrong person working it, it could actually lead to creating someone who has very little social conscience unless say for fellow alcoholics. I'm going again weds, i think this will benefit me but probably not the rest of society that much;-)

Seriously though it was a great article:-)

lucid

Interesting read. Thank you for posting it. I was actually talking about this with a friend today. I work with a lot of people who have reduced executive functioning and have a great deal of difficulty predicting consequences, sustaining focus, resisting temptation, etc. I can totally see how alcohol (or other addictive substances) can quickly dig its claws into someone with this cognitive profile. And from what I've read, chronic alcohol abuse only serves to cause more frontal lobe damage. It's no wonder then that an alcoholic can come to feel utterly powerless when it comes to booze and would need to surrender to an external locus of power.

Overman

@ lucid
It's no wonder then that an alcoholic can come to feel utterly powerless when it comes to booze and would need to surrender to an external locus of power.

For me alcoholism IS surrendering to an "external locus of power".

The steps, as useful as they are for many, simply subsititute one higher power for another. Harm reduction indeed.

paulmh

Don't get that?

lucid

Hi Overman. Thanks, that's much better put.

This is a personally interesting point for me because I'm someone with a high internal locus of control -- for the most part, I believe my fate is in my hands. So for me, step one is turning out to be a toughie because I'm not just substituting an HP, I'm having to change my locus of control. For now, I'm trying to make it work by thinking of my frontal lobe as my HP. We'll see how it goes...

FightingIrish

Ha! Someone I got sober with used his prefrontal cortex as his higher power.

I love that.

FightingIrish

It's funny when I read these threads, because I used to be an Ayn Rand-spouting atheist, yet I was able to find my way to surrendering and working the A.A. program without needing to join a church or become a member of the God squad.

I can see in these posts the remnants of how I used to think, and while I agree technically with people who have trouble with concepts like higher power, powerlessness, etc., I think a lot of people get caught up in semantics.

I'm glad I was desperate enough to put aside the semantic quibbles.

M

Ananda

to me this is about exploring what my spirituality means to me, and how i practice the 12 steps..has nothing to do with desperation and everything to do with seeking sobriety and a new way of life.

Dee74

I think FI meant some of us are so damn stubborn we need to be desperate before we can just 'do' something and not think about it too much.

I know that was the case with me - no God or HP involved at least initially - just me knowing that I had to not drink - no more swimming in circles - and trusting that all the good stuff I kept hearing about here would come from that.

It did

Later I was able to see that recovery is about way way more than just drinking or not - it is, as Nands said, a new way of life, and a chance to be a full and rounded person in all aspects of our lives, not just sobriety.

D