How much do you value the future?
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How much do you value the future?
I was recently introduced to an interesting idea and I thought I'd share. Turns out, you can do an experiment where you ask 100 people, "would you rather have $100 now, or $130 in five weeks?" In the experiment you can vary the amount to get now, the amount to get later, and the delay, and so you can phrase the question in many different ways, but the point is you can get some number that represents how valuable it is to have a reward in the present moment compared to having a reward later.
Guess what: if you do the experiment by asking this type of question to hundreds of people with any substance use disorder, and comparing their answer to the answers of hundreds of "normies," you find that people with substance use disorder tend to place greater value on having rewards in the present moment.
I think this is interesting as an empirical factoid, but beyond that, it sheds light on one possible way to reduce unwanted behavior (like drinking).
First, the interesting part. I think this explains part of why some people find it hard to stop using a substance. You naturally feel like getting drunk or high now is real, true, concrete, an actual thing, something that's a certainty. While delaying use in order to reap the rewards of abstinence, such as a better life or a clearer head: that feels so far away, so ephemeral, so hard to believe in, so distant. And it feels like it's worth less than the "reward" of getting drunk now.
This was the case with me: I knew there were advantages to quitting, but they felt so theoretical; so far off and so distant, and so the immediate reward of drinking won out time after time after time.
How does it happen that someone values rewards in the present moment? Three things: trauma, mental health issues, and temperament. Trauma is maybe self-explanatory; if your life up until now (or in your formative years) has been traumatic, then getting relief now may feel much more valuable to you than waiting for distant rewards. Same if you live with mental illness. If you're under a cloud of anxiety or depression, then no wonder it feels so much more important to do what you can to make the next 15 minutes more bearable; it simply may not feel worth it to cause even more pain in the present moment (by not drinking, for example) in order to wait for a happier time that feels like it may not ever come.
How can this be helpful?
I believe it can be truly helpful, to some people, to think about this. I know it informed my drinking, and I feel like in retrospect stopping drinking was a matter of correcting the discount -- getting to feel like the future really can be tangible, valuable, worthwhile, and worth the wait. So, for those who find this idea speaks to them, the way to leverage it for changing behavior is to readjust how valuable the future feels compared to the present. First, fix what you can in the present, to ease your pain. Get help for mental health issues, get help in processing trauma, do what you can to get out from under as much pain as you can. And then make the future real: give yourself as many rewards as you can for making change. After you don't drink (for even one day), thoughtfully and mindfully do things that feel good. Journal, take a walk, have a tasty dessert, call a good friend. But know in advance that you're going to do it ("tomorrow I'm going to...") and then when you do it, give yourself permission to treasure the reward you earned. Don't concentrate on all the bad stuff to avoid with drinking; instead be deliberately mindful of all the benefits of stopping.
A corollary is correcting the faulty cognitions. This is simple RR stuff, challenge the AV which says "drinking tonight is the only way I can feel better." Replace that with "that's not true, there are other things I can do tonight, and if I do them, then tomorrow will be a better day and I'll have earned the right to be proud of myself."
Obviously this might not speak to everyone. And one pathway to self-improvement is exactly that, just one pathway. Different things will resonate with different people. But I thought I'd share in case anyone finds it intriguing or helpful.
Guess what: if you do the experiment by asking this type of question to hundreds of people with any substance use disorder, and comparing their answer to the answers of hundreds of "normies," you find that people with substance use disorder tend to place greater value on having rewards in the present moment.
I think this is interesting as an empirical factoid, but beyond that, it sheds light on one possible way to reduce unwanted behavior (like drinking).
First, the interesting part. I think this explains part of why some people find it hard to stop using a substance. You naturally feel like getting drunk or high now is real, true, concrete, an actual thing, something that's a certainty. While delaying use in order to reap the rewards of abstinence, such as a better life or a clearer head: that feels so far away, so ephemeral, so hard to believe in, so distant. And it feels like it's worth less than the "reward" of getting drunk now.
This was the case with me: I knew there were advantages to quitting, but they felt so theoretical; so far off and so distant, and so the immediate reward of drinking won out time after time after time.
How does it happen that someone values rewards in the present moment? Three things: trauma, mental health issues, and temperament. Trauma is maybe self-explanatory; if your life up until now (or in your formative years) has been traumatic, then getting relief now may feel much more valuable to you than waiting for distant rewards. Same if you live with mental illness. If you're under a cloud of anxiety or depression, then no wonder it feels so much more important to do what you can to make the next 15 minutes more bearable; it simply may not feel worth it to cause even more pain in the present moment (by not drinking, for example) in order to wait for a happier time that feels like it may not ever come.
How can this be helpful?
I believe it can be truly helpful, to some people, to think about this. I know it informed my drinking, and I feel like in retrospect stopping drinking was a matter of correcting the discount -- getting to feel like the future really can be tangible, valuable, worthwhile, and worth the wait. So, for those who find this idea speaks to them, the way to leverage it for changing behavior is to readjust how valuable the future feels compared to the present. First, fix what you can in the present, to ease your pain. Get help for mental health issues, get help in processing trauma, do what you can to get out from under as much pain as you can. And then make the future real: give yourself as many rewards as you can for making change. After you don't drink (for even one day), thoughtfully and mindfully do things that feel good. Journal, take a walk, have a tasty dessert, call a good friend. But know in advance that you're going to do it ("tomorrow I'm going to...") and then when you do it, give yourself permission to treasure the reward you earned. Don't concentrate on all the bad stuff to avoid with drinking; instead be deliberately mindful of all the benefits of stopping.
A corollary is correcting the faulty cognitions. This is simple RR stuff, challenge the AV which says "drinking tonight is the only way I can feel better." Replace that with "that's not true, there are other things I can do tonight, and if I do them, then tomorrow will be a better day and I'll have earned the right to be proud of myself."
Obviously this might not speak to everyone. And one pathway to self-improvement is exactly that, just one pathway. Different things will resonate with different people. But I thought I'd share in case anyone finds it intriguing or helpful.
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Radix, in early sobriety I became interested in various dynamics of people more inclined to become and/or remain alcoholics, vs those more inclined to never develop a dependency or to quit drinking. My interest was in intoverts vs extroverts. I did a lot of looking online to very little avail.
It feels like an assumption, which I try to avoid, but believe it to be possible. There could be different factors for different people obviously. I can totally see how past trauma, mental health, and temperament could be major factors in developing a dependency and in the now/later scenario.
I can speak for myself. I've always leaned heavily towards saving money and thinking in terms of the future, even as an alcoholic, but I could be a statistical outlier in that. I would do a comparison of the interest rate with what I could get elsewhere. While still drinking, all the reasoning in the world would not have kept me from stopping for an 18 pack on the way home. All those feelings of anxiety, guilt, resentment, etc, were just too powerful. Drinking to relieve them, but in reality making them worse. It was only at the point at which I just couldn't go on like that anymore and had to do something different, and thank goodness found SR.
It feels like an assumption, which I try to avoid, but believe it to be possible. There could be different factors for different people obviously. I can totally see how past trauma, mental health, and temperament could be major factors in developing a dependency and in the now/later scenario.
I can speak for myself. I've always leaned heavily towards saving money and thinking in terms of the future, even as an alcoholic, but I could be a statistical outlier in that. I would do a comparison of the interest rate with what I could get elsewhere. While still drinking, all the reasoning in the world would not have kept me from stopping for an 18 pack on the way home. All those feelings of anxiety, guilt, resentment, etc, were just too powerful. Drinking to relieve them, but in reality making them worse. It was only at the point at which I just couldn't go on like that anymore and had to do something different, and thank goodness found SR.
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I think it's very understated in why people become alcoholics, is that alcohol is a highly addictive substance. If you read RR, you will know that works on the premise that alcohol hijacks the reward centres of the brain and becomes confused with the other survival instincts. Therefore the brain ends up thinking you need it to survive. Along with all the other physiological changes it makes in the body that has adjusted itself to accommodate the chemical onslaught.
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Alcohol derails the mechanics of the brain that deal with stress. That's why most alcoholics are unhappy with sob stories and excuses as to why my life is particularly challenging compared to others.
I have never met a happy alcoholic. I have not come across a story that " Hey I got a big promotion yesterday and hence drank a lot". Mostly its all day to day hardships of living. That itself shows the true nature of alcohol - it utilizes stress to make us drink next day. On top of it, it adds stress of its own. So it feels like there is no coping mechanism other than drinking.
I have never met a happy alcoholic. I have not come across a story that " Hey I got a big promotion yesterday and hence drank a lot". Mostly its all day to day hardships of living. That itself shows the true nature of alcohol - it utilizes stress to make us drink next day. On top of it, it adds stress of its own. So it feels like there is no coping mechanism other than drinking.
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Thank you for posting this Radix. This may be the post that helps someone get or stay sober.
Gratification delay is something I struggle with in active addiction. Now I too use the reward system for sober time accumulated. Practicing a delay for the work done now, I think it helps me to be more 'present' in the now. I;m more mindful of my efforts that makes the reward more anticipated. Anywho, entering recovery is a choice. So are the programs you work. Pick a program that speaks to you and has heart.
Guess what: if you do the experiment by asking this type of question to hundreds of people with any substance use disorder, and comparing their answer to the answers of hundreds of "normies," you find that people with substance use disorder tend to place greater value on having rewards in the present moment.
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Interesting post Radix, thanks.
By quitting drinking, using and smoking, I had to relearn how to delay my gratification when I had given in for years to the cult of immediate gratification at all costs.
It was a difficult change but it was rewarded by a return to emotional balance.
As Zencat, I'm more present in the now moment since I'm sober.
Originally Posted by Zencat 
Gratification delay is something I struggle with in active addiction.
It was a difficult change but it was rewarded by a return to emotional balance.
As Zencat, I'm more present in the now moment since I'm sober.
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Join Date: Nov 2018
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This is an interesting theory but I'm still not sure if those who are unable to delay gratification tend to become alcoholics, or if alcohol robs people of their ability to delay gratification. I would have said the later, but now that I think about it, it could be a little of both. The experiment does render data, but it doesn't directly answer the question at hand.
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This is a really interesting one Radix, thank you for posting. The balance between saving and spending is a tricky one There is surely value in living 'in the now' and enjoying life while you are young enough to do so. Equally, more pragmatic future planning obviously has benefits. I wonder what the correct 'discount rate' is as economists would put it.
Speaking as a recovering alcoholic, when I was in active addiction, every scrap of income went towards immediate 'relief' of my cravings. Now, nearly four and a half years sober I'm putting my beer money into medium term investments to buy a house on their maturity. The contrast could not be starker. Gratitude, gratitude, gratitude.
Best, Forwards.
Speaking as a recovering alcoholic, when I was in active addiction, every scrap of income went towards immediate 'relief' of my cravings. Now, nearly four and a half years sober I'm putting my beer money into medium term investments to buy a house on their maturity. The contrast could not be starker. Gratitude, gratitude, gratitude.
Best, Forwards.
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Join Date: Feb 2018
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I think it is always important to try and play the tape forward. Ask yourself, if you play things out, the Day-1, hangover, stupid decisions, drunk texts, etc. Is it really worth it?
For me the answer is always an undeniably no and it helps me control my urges. Instant gratification is nice but it comes with a heavy price to pay with us alcoholics.
For me the answer is always an undeniably no and it helps me control my urges. Instant gratification is nice but it comes with a heavy price to pay with us alcoholics.
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Based on my past, I always thought that the future would bring nothing but pain, so I did what I could to manage the present. At times I longed for death, to get away from the hell I was living. Thank goodness I got help to work through my traumas, and I slowly began hoping for a better future. Now I have a great life, and I enjoy the present immensely - which has given me faith that the future will bring wonderful things for me. It is kinda weird actually, that the old me was afraid of living and the new me is afraid of dying, because there is so much I haven't achieved yet.
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Great post, Radix
Yes, the delayed gratification mechanism has been shrunk to either be minuscule or non existent in active addiction.
Its such good news that with belief, action, and time, we can actually heal and regrow that cerebral function.
Balancing between the two for me is still kind of wobbly, but I’m still a newbie. No junk food today for me.
Thanks for the post.
Yes, the delayed gratification mechanism has been shrunk to either be minuscule or non existent in active addiction.
Its such good news that with belief, action, and time, we can actually heal and regrow that cerebral function.
Balancing between the two for me is still kind of wobbly, but I’m still a newbie. No junk food today for me.
Thanks for the post.
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Marshamallows!
Thank you for sharing this post it brings back many great memories of my childhood!
I’m pretty sure the results of the test and the following studies all ended up as being a plus one for environment, but as in all debates I will go with nature AND nurture.
DriGuy, I agree that it doesn’t really answer the original question but it made you think! 😁
Thank you for sharing this post it brings back many great memories of my childhood!
I’m pretty sure the results of the test and the following studies all ended up as being a plus one for environment, but as in all debates I will go with nature AND nurture.
DriGuy, I agree that it doesn’t really answer the original question but it made you think! 😁
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I've been thinking more about this. Let's say the normie says to the alcoholic, "you should put more value on your future, and not so much on the present."
That's like the normie saying "you shouldn't like blue as much as you do, you should like yellow instead." Well, that obviously doesn't work, because you can't just change what you like. Or going back to the model, you can't just decide to feel more value in investing in your future. That's the crux; if you could just do it, then there wouldn't be as much addiction out there.
Instead, changing your values takes time, practice, and active challenging of assumptions. Then comes the paradox of addiction: you can see objectively that the future would feel better if you stopped. But it feels like drinking now has more value than not. The work of recovery is changing that feeling, so it matches the facts: so the future feels as valuable as you know it is. This brings me right back to the concept of the AV. Challenging the brain's excuses to keep drinking is often exactly the same as challenging feeling that the short-term pain of abstinence (tonight) isn't worth the long-term gain of achieving sobriety and keeping it (until next week, or forever).
The other important takehome for me is that anything that reduces present pain makes waiting for the future more bearable. Therefore, working on trauma and mental health, building community, seeking and finding meaning, being accountable and helpful to others -- I would emphasize these things right away. They make the present moment better, and when the present moment is better, it feels easier to invest in the future.
Usual caveat: these are my thoughts only, of things that speak to me. There are many paths to sobriety, and I do not claim that these thoughts are the only way to get there.
That's like the normie saying "you shouldn't like blue as much as you do, you should like yellow instead." Well, that obviously doesn't work, because you can't just change what you like. Or going back to the model, you can't just decide to feel more value in investing in your future. That's the crux; if you could just do it, then there wouldn't be as much addiction out there.
Instead, changing your values takes time, practice, and active challenging of assumptions. Then comes the paradox of addiction: you can see objectively that the future would feel better if you stopped. But it feels like drinking now has more value than not. The work of recovery is changing that feeling, so it matches the facts: so the future feels as valuable as you know it is. This brings me right back to the concept of the AV. Challenging the brain's excuses to keep drinking is often exactly the same as challenging feeling that the short-term pain of abstinence (tonight) isn't worth the long-term gain of achieving sobriety and keeping it (until next week, or forever).
The other important takehome for me is that anything that reduces present pain makes waiting for the future more bearable. Therefore, working on trauma and mental health, building community, seeking and finding meaning, being accountable and helpful to others -- I would emphasize these things right away. They make the present moment better, and when the present moment is better, it feels easier to invest in the future.
Usual caveat: these are my thoughts only, of things that speak to me. There are many paths to sobriety, and I do not claim that these thoughts are the only way to get there.
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Originally Posted by Radix
I've been thinking more about this. Let's say the normie says to the alcoholic, "you should put more value on your future, and not so much on the present."
That's like the normie saying "you shouldn't like blue as much as you do, you should like yellow instead." Well, that obviously doesn't work, because you can't just change what you like. Or going back to the model, you can't just decide to feel more value in investing in your future. That's the crux; if you could just do it, then there wouldn't be as much addiction out there.
Instead, changing your values takes time, practice, and active challenging of assumptions. Then comes the paradox of addiction: you can see objectively that the future would feel better if you stopped. But it feels like drinking now has more value than not. The work of recovery is changing that feeling, so it matches the facts: so the future feels as valuable as you know it is. This brings me right back to the concept of the AV. Challenging the brain's excuses to keep drinking is often exactly the same as challenging feeling that the short-term pain of abstinence (tonight) isn't worth the long-term gain of achieving sobriety and keeping it (until next week, or forever).
The other important takehome for me is that anything that reduces present pain makes waiting for the future more bearable. Therefore, working on trauma and mental health, building community, seeking and finding meaning, being accountable and helpful to others -- I would emphasize these things right away. They make the present moment better, and when the present moment is better, it feels easier to invest in the future.
Usual caveat: these are my thoughts only, of things that speak to me. There are many paths to sobriety, and I do not claim that these thoughts are the only way to get there.
That's like the normie saying "you shouldn't like blue as much as you do, you should like yellow instead." Well, that obviously doesn't work, because you can't just change what you like. Or going back to the model, you can't just decide to feel more value in investing in your future. That's the crux; if you could just do it, then there wouldn't be as much addiction out there.
Instead, changing your values takes time, practice, and active challenging of assumptions. Then comes the paradox of addiction: you can see objectively that the future would feel better if you stopped. But it feels like drinking now has more value than not. The work of recovery is changing that feeling, so it matches the facts: so the future feels as valuable as you know it is. This brings me right back to the concept of the AV. Challenging the brain's excuses to keep drinking is often exactly the same as challenging feeling that the short-term pain of abstinence (tonight) isn't worth the long-term gain of achieving sobriety and keeping it (until next week, or forever).
The other important takehome for me is that anything that reduces present pain makes waiting for the future more bearable. Therefore, working on trauma and mental health, building community, seeking and finding meaning, being accountable and helpful to others -- I would emphasize these things right away. They make the present moment better, and when the present moment is better, it feels easier to invest in the future.
Usual caveat: these are my thoughts only, of things that speak to me. There are many paths to sobriety, and I do not claim that these thoughts are the only way to get there.
My teen and I have regular conversations about how EVERYONE does what they think is in their best interest. It's just that some people are interested in different things than I am and some people value likely pleasure now more than potential pleasure in the future.
When I think of it this way, addiction looks like extreme short-sightedness on my part. I didn't have bad intentions, I just had terrible vision. Periodically, I would get glimpses of how my life was devolving because of drugs/alcohol, but I would just look away!!!! I didn't want to see the future I was giving up in exchange for "managing" the present.
Today, the future holds such potential! It's awesome, and I'm proud that I can see it clearly. AA and SR have helped me manage my present difficulties without needing to resort to substance use. Sober, I can focus on TRULY finding joy in the present while preparing for an ever-brighter future.
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Still thinking on this but I need to put myself in someone else’s shoes a bit longer… I highly value my past, present and future so I can’t quite relate yet.
Since I was very young I’ve known I liked to feel like a good person so if a “ feels good atm… but how good do I feel about myself?” situation came about I responded by doing what I knew.
Delayed gratification? Sorry..
Yeah I was that child that made my candy corn last all year. I wasn’t delaying anything like gratification, I didn’t even know what the word meant. I was enjoying it, I knew I’d have plenty left to enjoy again later. 🤷🏼♀️
Since I was very young I’ve known I liked to feel like a good person so if a “ feels good atm… but how good do I feel about myself?” situation came about I responded by doing what I knew.
Delayed gratification? Sorry..
Yeah I was that child that made my candy corn last all year. I wasn’t delaying anything like gratification, I didn’t even know what the word meant. I was enjoying it, I knew I’d have plenty left to enjoy again later. 🤷🏼♀️
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