"Disease" manifesting in other ways
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I have trouble accepting that hoarding, for example, is alcoholism. Treated or otherwise. This is because the hoarder may never have touched a drop, and may never will. This smacks of Through the Looking Glass, where Humpty Dumpty maintains that "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less". I don't see that it moves understanding forward to tell a compulsive handwasher, for example, to go to seek a program of recovery from alcohol abuse. Or to maintain that someone with decades of sobriety somehow continues to have a problem with a dependence on alcohol.
My experience is that knots get untangled and problems solved one strand at a time. If alcohol is a problem, then address its consumption. Once that is done, then other issues can be pursued and addressed. Growth in other areas can be pursued. Almost like normal folks do, every danged day.
This is my experience. Your mileage may vary, as they say.
My experience is that knots get untangled and problems solved one strand at a time. If alcohol is a problem, then address its consumption. Once that is done, then other issues can be pursued and addressed. Growth in other areas can be pursued. Almost like normal folks do, every danged day.
This is my experience. Your mileage may vary, as they say.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
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Interesting to read various opinions on this . In my 2 years in AA I never got a straight answer to "what causes alcoholism " . My sponsor used to refer to the "ism" as being the part alcoholics have but I could never understand what he meant and he was an old timer of 28 years sober then .
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Originally Posted by Thomas59 
In my 2 years in AA I never got a straight answer to "what causes alcoholism "
That's why it's imperative to accept our condition for what it is and find ways to live with it.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 228
In my addiction, I was selfish, I blamed others for everything that went wrong in my life, I acted like a victim, felt sorry for myself, drank and drove, lied, manipulated, but then i was also a total people pleaser at times too - all those things I didn't wake up in the morning and intend to do.
Looking back I realize my thinking was seriously messed up!
I realize that non-alcoholics can also be that way - selfish, liars, manipulators, people pleasers, have low self-esteem.
The difference between me and non-alcoholics is that being selfish, acting like a victim, impulsive actions, etc.....is that those things will lead me to the bottle (which is dangerous), while non-alcoholics will NOT go to the bottle.
I can't afford to continue with those behaviours. Non-alcoholics in some sense can.
Not fair but true.
Looking back I realize my thinking was seriously messed up!
I realize that non-alcoholics can also be that way - selfish, liars, manipulators, people pleasers, have low self-esteem.
The difference between me and non-alcoholics is that being selfish, acting like a victim, impulsive actions, etc.....is that those things will lead me to the bottle (which is dangerous), while non-alcoholics will NOT go to the bottle.
I can't afford to continue with those behaviours. Non-alcoholics in some sense can.
Not fair but true.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: US
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And I am beginning to understand that overcoming the urge to go "blotto" with alcohol to not deal with uncomfortable feelings is a deeply personal journey - but I would argue that what we label "alcoholic" or "addictive" thought patterns are really the thought patterns of all humans, to some extent.
I'm sorry for what your Mom has been through. I relate to her. I learned that I had to please my parents, to fall in line to get my needs (sort of) met. So I'm a codependent and a people pleaser. If something is wrong, its automatically my fault. Yada yada...and so on! I'm a work in progress.
Absolutely, people who have experienced traumas (and I think childhood trauma, abuse and neglect are particularly damaging) display the 'symptoms' or unhealthy thinking that I describe. They just may not medicate with alcohol. BUT, and that's a big but, I would suggest that many develop mal-adaptive coping behaviors as a result, if the issues aren't dealt with or treated. This is just my experience and I certainly can't speak for everyone.
Codependence (which is often manifested in people addiction), self harming, depression/anxiety (or other mental illness), over eating/obesity (which is huge for women who have suffered childhood sexual abuse), prescription drug abuse... to name a few that I have seen.
I have spent years and years trying to 'understand' my addiction. The whys, the what's, the science, the physiology, neurology. While interesting, very little of it matters really. I 'know' so many of my 'whys' and I still drink....knowing full well it will kill me. Go figure.
I won't cease being interested in, and debating, what alcoholism is. But, at the end of the day, I cannot intellectualize or therpize or analyze my way out of it. It just is. Cunning, baffling and powerful. I loved a term that Dee used "analysis paralysis". Been there, done that.
I'm sorry for what your Mom has been through. I relate to her. I learned that I had to please my parents, to fall in line to get my needs (sort of) met. So I'm a codependent and a people pleaser. If something is wrong, its automatically my fault. Yada yada...and so on! I'm a work in progress.
Absolutely, people who have experienced traumas (and I think childhood trauma, abuse and neglect are particularly damaging) display the 'symptoms' or unhealthy thinking that I describe. They just may not medicate with alcohol. BUT, and that's a big but, I would suggest that many develop mal-adaptive coping behaviors as a result, if the issues aren't dealt with or treated. This is just my experience and I certainly can't speak for everyone.
Codependence (which is often manifested in people addiction), self harming, depression/anxiety (or other mental illness), over eating/obesity (which is huge for women who have suffered childhood sexual abuse), prescription drug abuse... to name a few that I have seen.
I have spent years and years trying to 'understand' my addiction. The whys, the what's, the science, the physiology, neurology. While interesting, very little of it matters really. I 'know' so many of my 'whys' and I still drink....knowing full well it will kill me. Go figure.
I won't cease being interested in, and debating, what alcoholism is. But, at the end of the day, I cannot intellectualize or therpize or analyze my way out of it. It just is. Cunning, baffling and powerful. I loved a term that Dee used "analysis paralysis". Been there, done that.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Thanks everyone. I understand now that it is an AA construct. I really just did not understand what people meant when they referred to their disease (alcoholism) causing other behaviors besides drinking alcohol consistently to excess.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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Originally Posted by madgirl
It just seems odd to me that alcoholism is presented here really in two ways:
1. An "allergy" if you will - an unhealthy response once the alcoholic drinks an alcoholic beverage. A "normal" person is capable of ingesting one or two drinks, then walking away, without any compulsion to have more.
1. An "allergy" if you will - an unhealthy response once the alcoholic drinks an alcoholic beverage. A "normal" person is capable of ingesting one or two drinks, then walking away, without any compulsion to have more.
If alcoholism was "just" the physical allergy, then everyone would get better once they quit drinking. However, the majority of alcoholics get worse once they quit drinking, unless doing step work, rational recovery, etc., to learn new ways to deal with life.
2. A "spiritual malady" - a diseased "self". If the "diseased self" isn't healed, then compulsive behaviors (overspending, overeating, hyper sexuality, etc) will manifest.
Point two is depressing, because that seems like all humanity then suffers from "alcoholism". Think about it - who on this earth has a perfect "report card"?
Point two is depressing, because that seems like all humanity then suffers from "alcoholism". Think about it - who on this earth has a perfect "report card"?
Ever hear the term "grateful alcoholic"? If I wasn't one, I would not have had a spiritual awakening in which I am beginning to live in contentment and peace of mind. I focus on where I am today and not the hell I went through to get here. That's not depressing in the least.
I'm not sure what this have to do with having a "perfect report card"? "We are not saints", says the big book. We just live one day at a time, doing God's will best we can which brings us happiness, peace, and contentment. And we go out and help others.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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Originally Posted by madgirl
Thanks everyone. I understand now that it is an AA construct. I really just did not understand what people meant when they referred to their disease (alcoholism) causing other behaviors besides drinking alcohol consistently to excess.
Many alcoholics/addicts I know have more than one addictions, with one addiction being the primary one.
Some of us have "sprees" while in recovery. They aren't full-blown addictions, but we turn to other substances or behaviors while trying to recover from our main addiction.
It takes 12 steps to get a spiritual awakening to completely fix the spiritual malady, so that's bound to happen.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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Originally Posted by Thomas59
Interesting to read various opinions on this . In my 2 years in AA I never got a straight answer to "what causes alcoholism " . My sponsor used to refer to the "ism" as being the part alcoholics have but I could never understand what he meant and he was an old timer of 28 years sober then .
"What causes alcoholism (the non physical allergy part) is that we had a incorrect reaction to life."
"It's because of our thinking and perception. We were spiritually selfish (we wanted people to act or say the way we wanted them to, instead of living life on life's terms), dishonest (lies to ourself or others), self-seeking (even when we thought we were being helpful) and frightened (the biggest one for us all)."
The "ism" is that we become irritable and discontented when not drinking. The "ism" are the "bedevilments" listed on page 52 of the big book I believe it is.
Hope that helps. Sorry if this comes across preachy, that's not my intention. I just have a lot of passion behind what I write because it's a freaking miracle that I found something that worked for ME. :-)
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
In a grapevine article, as I recall - Bill W clearly pronounced that (paraphrase) not all traits a bad traits a drunk has are exclusive to alcoholics. Many are simply inherent because we are human beings.
Some old timers and friends - heck, sometimes me - will poke at others saying , oh yea that's because you're an alcoholic. That good natured "jab" is tongue in check, mostly.
I do know for me when the alcohol was removed I still have some ick.......Always have had. For me that simply means not all my crap is resolved when I stop drinking. It maybe isn't meant to imply - imo - that because I am alcoholic I have certain traits. Though low self esteem, feelings of less than are indeed common but not solely alcoholic tendency
Like to comment some more - it's a good topic. But in alcoholic fashion I'm late to a meeting.......
Some old timers and friends - heck, sometimes me - will poke at others saying , oh yea that's because you're an alcoholic. That good natured "jab" is tongue in check, mostly.
I do know for me when the alcohol was removed I still have some ick.......Always have had. For me that simply means not all my crap is resolved when I stop drinking. It maybe isn't meant to imply - imo - that because I am alcoholic I have certain traits. Though low self esteem, feelings of less than are indeed common but not solely alcoholic tendency
Like to comment some more - it's a good topic. But in alcoholic fashion I'm late to a meeting.......
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by Bunny211
I agree with what others have said. There are loads of explanations. I go by the big book because it is my experience. I try not to get into circuitous debates such as the chicken or the egg. That's all above my pay grade and way over my head. It comes down to my experience. I can only share what I know. I have no monopoly on God. I have no monopoly on a the correct way to go about recovery. I only have a way that works for me.
The bottom line is that I know when I work a spiritual program I feel a whole lot better. My alcohol problem is removed so long as I do what the big book tells me to do...Trust God, clean house and help others. To an outsider it may appear as though I have joined a cult or have been brainwashed or am mentally ill. *Shrugs shoulders* Maybe so. But I'm a whole lot happier because of what I have experienced by working the steps.
I'm not saying I am right or others are wrong. That's just been my experience and I hope that by sharing I can be helpful to others.
The bottom line is that I know when I work a spiritual program I feel a whole lot better. My alcohol problem is removed so long as I do what the big book tells me to do...Trust God, clean house and help others. To an outsider it may appear as though I have joined a cult or have been brainwashed or am mentally ill. *Shrugs shoulders* Maybe so. But I'm a whole lot happier because of what I have experienced by working the steps.
I'm not saying I am right or others are wrong. That's just been my experience and I hope that by sharing I can be helpful to others.
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Michigan
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A simple way that my disease manifests in other ways is wanting more! I have heard someone at a table say that he was addicted to "more". This makes sense to me. I can find myself doing sober activities today and I can do them to excess.
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