The God Problem
AA member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 872
I am an AA member for almost 12years.
I wanted long term sobriety,not a year or two,then drink again as I had done previously,I was prepared to go to any lengths to stay sober.
I was told in my early days I could choose my own higher power,for a long time it was the long term members in the rooms.I was also told I could call it good orderly direction or group of drunks.
Today nature is my Higher Power.
The meetings I attend are in a big multicultural city,a real cross section of society,very few of the members are religious,but we all work the same programme and stay sober.
I wanted long term sobriety,not a year or two,then drink again as I had done previously,I was prepared to go to any lengths to stay sober.
I was told in my early days I could choose my own higher power,for a long time it was the long term members in the rooms.I was also told I could call it good orderly direction or group of drunks.
Today nature is my Higher Power.
The meetings I attend are in a big multicultural city,a real cross section of society,very few of the members are religious,but we all work the same programme and stay sober.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 861
For me, the earth and universe are spiritual. I don't use the term 'higher power'. I see the earth and universe as a bigger power or broader power, but not a higher power.
I struggle with the references to god in 12 step meetings.
You might look into SMART Recovery, LifeRing, etc.
I struggle with the references to god in 12 step meetings.
You might look into SMART Recovery, LifeRing, etc.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,195
I avoided AA for years because of the association to religion. My father is a Catholic and mother a Protestant from Northern Ireland. I was born in Canada because they met and fell in love in the early 70's when there was a battle line between the two sides. That time in Belfast is referred to as 'The Troubles'. A lot of violence, innocent people dying on both sides so they had to come to Canada to get married. Religion had a very negative impact on my parents and I was raised without it.
I am a man of logic, science. Charles Darwin is a kind of prophet for me. But I have been going to AA meetings because of desperation. At no point has anyone pushed any sort of religious agenda on me. There is the serenity prayer and the Lord's Prayer only.
I have seen Jewish men wearing kippa's and even Muslim men in traditional garb. Been going only for about 3 months now but what I see is people just struggling with same affliction and looking for support.
I live in a very multicultural city so it could be different in other parts, but no pressure or talk of religion has ever really been a part of the meetings. I was relaxed from the first minute I sat down and just listened to the people talk. I don't believe in gods or a God but that has never been an issue.
A friend of mine whose parents are Hindus from India have idols around their house of 10 different gods. There is 1 billion Hindus in the world. People are different and have different beliefs. I don't care really. I just know that addiction and alcoholism do not discriminate between what your background is or what you believe. Just connecting with people who have the same problem as you is what is AA, group meetings etc is about
I am a man of logic, science. Charles Darwin is a kind of prophet for me. But I have been going to AA meetings because of desperation. At no point has anyone pushed any sort of religious agenda on me. There is the serenity prayer and the Lord's Prayer only.
I have seen Jewish men wearing kippa's and even Muslim men in traditional garb. Been going only for about 3 months now but what I see is people just struggling with same affliction and looking for support.
I live in a very multicultural city so it could be different in other parts, but no pressure or talk of religion has ever really been a part of the meetings. I was relaxed from the first minute I sat down and just listened to the people talk. I don't believe in gods or a God but that has never been an issue.
A friend of mine whose parents are Hindus from India have idols around their house of 10 different gods. There is 1 billion Hindus in the world. People are different and have different beliefs. I don't care really. I just know that addiction and alcoholism do not discriminate between what your background is or what you believe. Just connecting with people who have the same problem as you is what is AA, group meetings etc is about
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,098
I'm really glad you posted this, and that you're getting such great replies, it's something that's been on my mind constantly these past few days
I personally am finding AA hugely helpful, I felt immediately comfortable and safe, and have only been going two weeks but it's the longest time I've had completely sober in many years. I don't want to give up something I think is really helpful with my recovery, but I absolutely cannot get to a stage where I feel comfortable with a God or higher power in that sense... So far I haven't really found any pressure though, and there's definitely an acknowledgment that you can choose your higher power, so hopefully you don't need to write AA off either if it's something you find helpful (if you don't want to do AA at all there definitely seems to be other non-spiritual options so try them!!)
I desperately want to be and stay sober, but I just can't pretend to believe in something I don't feel in my heart is true, so definitely understand where you're coming from and I hope you don't feel pressured by anyone to 'just open your mind' (agh)
Goodluck, thanks for the post, I needed to read these opinions today
I personally am finding AA hugely helpful, I felt immediately comfortable and safe, and have only been going two weeks but it's the longest time I've had completely sober in many years. I don't want to give up something I think is really helpful with my recovery, but I absolutely cannot get to a stage where I feel comfortable with a God or higher power in that sense... So far I haven't really found any pressure though, and there's definitely an acknowledgment that you can choose your higher power, so hopefully you don't need to write AA off either if it's something you find helpful (if you don't want to do AA at all there definitely seems to be other non-spiritual options so try them!!)
I desperately want to be and stay sober, but I just can't pretend to believe in something I don't feel in my heart is true, so definitely understand where you're coming from and I hope you don't feel pressured by anyone to 'just open your mind' (agh)
Goodluck, thanks for the post, I needed to read these opinions today
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: canada
Posts: 748
It's pretty simple for me. I don't know if there's a God or not, and if there is I have no idea what the concept of God even means. Nonetheless, after spending years as an atheist I made a choice to have faith that there is a God even though I had no idea and still have no idea what that means. I started going to church and have become involved with a liberal Christian mainline faith tradition. It was in surrendering to God and admitting that I was powerless over alcohol that I finally was able to find power to stay sober and start to lead a victorious, happy life. Perhaps it's all a placebo effect or a grand delusion, but it's a framework that works for me.
At the end of the day it's me who decides whether or not I go into the liquor store. It's not like some celestial, supernatural being stands there and holds the door shut. I suppose it sounds a bit blasphemous, but I sort of suspect that all the success and personal power that anyone experiences all comes from the same place with the difference being that we all are different in how we are able to harness it. For me that's through the absurdity of faith in God.
At the end of the day it's me who decides whether or not I go into the liquor store. It's not like some celestial, supernatural being stands there and holds the door shut. I suppose it sounds a bit blasphemous, but I sort of suspect that all the success and personal power that anyone experiences all comes from the same place with the difference being that we all are different in how we are able to harness it. For me that's through the absurdity of faith in God.
Tired
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 116
It's a lark. Higher power.
You can take it or leave it.
I myself consider my every action part of that, yet I understand, in a total way that religion and science meet at a construct of unity which leaves me stupified. I claim no more understanding of God then a child. But God does exist. It, exists, and that is of a higher existence, of evolution, of human brains, of self. Carl Sagan, was adapt at that rhetoric. Science, and religion, do not have to be at war.
Yes Virginia, there is a God. Not the God of our forefathers perhaps, but maybe the same reverence, without the superstition and prejudice, but if the universe has a name, a mantle, that then, is God.
You can take it or leave it.
I myself consider my every action part of that, yet I understand, in a total way that religion and science meet at a construct of unity which leaves me stupified. I claim no more understanding of God then a child. But God does exist. It, exists, and that is of a higher existence, of evolution, of human brains, of self. Carl Sagan, was adapt at that rhetoric. Science, and religion, do not have to be at war.
Yes Virginia, there is a God. Not the God of our forefathers perhaps, but maybe the same reverence, without the superstition and prejudice, but if the universe has a name, a mantle, that then, is God.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 174
This has cleared things up for me, as well - indeed, the "higher power" thing was what stopped me from checking out an AA meeting near me - I'm a hardcore skeptic, and was of the opinion that even if it were true that belief in the supernatural was necessary for beating an addiction, "X is true" is not the same thing as "It is desirable/healthy to believe that X is true".
So from what people saying, in the context of AA it can be a metaphorical/philisophical thing?
I currently live in Thailand, and practice Buddhism (the latter being more a system of ethics, traditions and morality than a religion per se - it matters not one jot what you believe; whether you are good or bad is determined solely by the merits or demerits of your actions).
So from what people saying, in the context of AA it can be a metaphorical/philisophical thing?
I currently live in Thailand, and practice Buddhism (the latter being more a system of ethics, traditions and morality than a religion per se - it matters not one jot what you believe; whether you are good or bad is determined solely by the merits or demerits of your actions).
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
I believe we have responsibility and action that we must put into taking our problem away. I don't believe a higher power will just do it for us. Neither does AA. It takes action on our part... The steps are our action and our responsibility.
NOT drinking is our responsibility.
But faith helps me do this. I believe there is a power greater than myself. I can experience it every day when the sun rises. I don't make the sun rise. I cannot stop it rising. So, clearly there is a power greater than me. I leave it at that for now and I ask to no entity in particular 'help me today to stay sober'. I say 'thank you'. I say the serenity prayer and when it says 'God' I simply see it as that power which keeps the sun rising and which swells my heart with joy.
I am over a year sober.
In years past, I could not stay sober. In those years, I also fiercely resisted the term God. As I let go of my stubborn defense against the word and my resistance of the possibility there was a power greater than myself, it became much easier.
Now, the God problem is not a problem.
And I have a lot less problems.
LIFE - Learning to Increase Faith Everyday
NOT drinking is our responsibility.
But faith helps me do this. I believe there is a power greater than myself. I can experience it every day when the sun rises. I don't make the sun rise. I cannot stop it rising. So, clearly there is a power greater than me. I leave it at that for now and I ask to no entity in particular 'help me today to stay sober'. I say 'thank you'. I say the serenity prayer and when it says 'God' I simply see it as that power which keeps the sun rising and which swells my heart with joy.
I am over a year sober.
In years past, I could not stay sober. In those years, I also fiercely resisted the term God. As I let go of my stubborn defense against the word and my resistance of the possibility there was a power greater than myself, it became much easier.
Now, the God problem is not a problem.
And I have a lot less problems.
LIFE - Learning to Increase Faith Everyday
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
Originally Posted by retroactive 
I wanted to know how everyone on here interpreted the whole "higher power" thing. I have never been a religious person, and this is a major turn off for me. I believe that only I can make myself stop drinking, I am not willing to put faith in some outside guiding force to take care of the problem for me. I feel like I cant be the only one on these boards who feel this way.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 174
With the patient dilligence of the practice of meditation, making merits to myself, and to others, I find that I *AM* my higher power.
But ultimately, you have to find what's right for you.
I've found that I relapse when I think "I must Not drink, I must Not drink, I must stay off the booze". Because when you're thinking that, then guess what you're thinking about? Drink, that's what!
Its just as much a fact that if I were to grab your arm and tell you in an urgent voice "Now listen very carefully, the entire fate of the universe hangs in the balance: Do Not - I repeat, DO NOT . . . think about a pink fluffy bunny rabbit", chances are you'll think about nothing BUT said furry animal.
Rather, I'm finding it works better if you focus on the feeling of sobriety, of clear headedness; the Buddhist idea of being clear-minded, having "samadhi", the ideal of being far from defilements exemplified by ole Gautama Buddha himself.
In other words, focus on what you want to achieve, not what you want to avoid.
And I just described another Higher Power
But ultimately, you have to find what's right for you.
I've found that I relapse when I think "I must Not drink, I must Not drink, I must stay off the booze". Because when you're thinking that, then guess what you're thinking about? Drink, that's what!
Its just as much a fact that if I were to grab your arm and tell you in an urgent voice "Now listen very carefully, the entire fate of the universe hangs in the balance: Do Not - I repeat, DO NOT . . . think about a pink fluffy bunny rabbit", chances are you'll think about nothing BUT said furry animal.
Rather, I'm finding it works better if you focus on the feeling of sobriety, of clear headedness; the Buddhist idea of being clear-minded, having "samadhi", the ideal of being far from defilements exemplified by ole Gautama Buddha himself.
In other words, focus on what you want to achieve, not what you want to avoid.
And I just described another Higher Power
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,550
This is a major anxiety for a lot of folks. Maybe the best way to approach it is merely to say "It's safer and easier not to try to get sober alone". Like "It's safer and easier for an inexperienced person to climb a rock cliff with other folks rather than trying to do it alone, particularly without a supporting rope (like a counselor or doctor or helpful friend). Note that I'm not saying "You can't do it alone". Merely that it's safer and easier to have assistance. If we then say that realizing that can be described as being helped by a "higher power"; if a person looks at it this way then they might not get so hung up on "the God Thing".
So what to do when you go to an AA meeting and so many folks are going on and on about "God" and their "Sponsors" and how helpless they are, like little children needing to be led along under close supervision? Well the only thing I can say is to try to follow the teachings of Lao Tzu back in China thousands of years ago and "go with the flow". Try to sit back, try to avoid rolling your eyeballs. If necessary, say you have a headache, angina or even a bit of diarrhea, excuse yourself and, if you don't come back, seek an agnostics meeting if there's one in your vicinity.
There were a couple of experts that scaled Yosemite recently without any back up. Few beginners trying to recover from alcoholism are qualified to take the risk of trying to go it alone. If they were qualified they'd probably not be alcoholics. Their higher power can be merely the insight that it's safer and easier to have some support from other persons in recovery, doctors, counselors, dogs. Even cats. Well at least some cats!
W.
So what to do when you go to an AA meeting and so many folks are going on and on about "God" and their "Sponsors" and how helpless they are, like little children needing to be led along under close supervision? Well the only thing I can say is to try to follow the teachings of Lao Tzu back in China thousands of years ago and "go with the flow". Try to sit back, try to avoid rolling your eyeballs. If necessary, say you have a headache, angina or even a bit of diarrhea, excuse yourself and, if you don't come back, seek an agnostics meeting if there's one in your vicinity.
There were a couple of experts that scaled Yosemite recently without any back up. Few beginners trying to recover from alcoholism are qualified to take the risk of trying to go it alone. If they were qualified they'd probably not be alcoholics. Their higher power can be merely the insight that it's safer and easier to have some support from other persons in recovery, doctors, counselors, dogs. Even cats. Well at least some cats!
W.
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 6,435
When I stopped fighting everything and everybody and kept my mind open to all manner of recovery the healing started.
I highly recommend reading the chapter to the agnostic in the big book it is nothing about religion it is all about spirituality
Whatever path you take I wish you well
I highly recommend reading the chapter to the agnostic in the big book it is nothing about religion it is all about spirituality
Whatever path you take I wish you well
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: SE USA
Posts: 599
Nature. The whole cycle.
And it also helped when I separated spirituality from religion. For years I carried resentments toward religion and that blocked me from spirituality. I never realized you could have one without the other.
And it also helped when I separated spirituality from religion. For years I carried resentments toward religion and that blocked me from spirituality. I never realized you could have one without the other.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
Originally Posted by sugarbear1
you may want to read One Breath at a Time: Buddhism and the Twelve Steps by Kevin Griffin
You don't have to believe in God or a higher power get sober, regardless of what anyone tells you. A God never made me drink and a God never made me stop. I got myself drunk and I got myself sober.
I agree with wpainterw that it can be easier getting sober with the help of others. If AA is the only group option around you, perhaps go and take what you find useful. When they start the praying and the God stuff think about how good it feels to be alive and sober in this present moment.
That bell or bike person
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: london
Posts: 4,978
A lot of peoples AV's seem to get mileage out of the God question .
I read a load of old books written by people centuries ago and i didn't find an answer.
Nowadays i really don't know and i don't think there is any more enlightenment to be had from any person or book.
The most Godlike and the most Devlish things i see are in the hearts and deeds of my fellow men and women.
Take the leap of faith into sobriety, look for what we have in common with people not what divides us ..
be persistent and persevere through the hardships that will happen,
That's what i've learned , m
I read a load of old books written by people centuries ago and i didn't find an answer.
Nowadays i really don't know and i don't think there is any more enlightenment to be had from any person or book.
The most Godlike and the most Devlish things i see are in the hearts and deeds of my fellow men and women.
Take the leap of faith into sobriety, look for what we have in common with people not what divides us ..
be persistent and persevere through the hardships that will happen,
That's what i've learned , m
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
People hate their jobs, co-workers, supervisors...but they stay put for years, decades.
People hate where they live or their living situations...but they stay for years, decades.
People stay in loveless or otherwise abusive relationships for years, decades.
People drink to excess for years, decades.
Doesn't seem to be much of a conflict or conflict of interest, at least not in terms of behavior. Where's the outrage? Where does it leave us when our outrage doesn't lead to meaningful action?
I'm not a fan of AVRT, largely because it doesn't help me to remain sober. But if it would have helped me to get sober, I'd have no problem in putting aside my reservations about an AV. For me, and in the end, believing in an AV, the power of an AV, that one can argue with, ignore, be influenced by or overcome an AV is an act of faith, and no less an effective a tool for those who use it as a result.
People hate where they live or their living situations...but they stay for years, decades.
People stay in loveless or otherwise abusive relationships for years, decades.
People drink to excess for years, decades.
Doesn't seem to be much of a conflict or conflict of interest, at least not in terms of behavior. Where's the outrage? Where does it leave us when our outrage doesn't lead to meaningful action?
I'm not a fan of AVRT, largely because it doesn't help me to remain sober. But if it would have helped me to get sober, I'd have no problem in putting aside my reservations about an AV. For me, and in the end, believing in an AV, the power of an AV, that one can argue with, ignore, be influenced by or overcome an AV is an act of faith, and no less an effective a tool for those who use it as a result.
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
I joined a gym and quit
I quit smoking and quit
I walked each day and quit
I quit drinking on my own with no support and quit
I eat too many sweets and never quit
I drink too much coffee and never quit
I am too judgmental and never quit
I drank alcohol daily for years and never quit for more than 30 days
8 months ago I quit drinking alcohol
It is the longest period of time I have ever quit anything that was bad for me.
I could not do it on my own.
Daily I do what I need to do to stay sober
I quit not listening to others and quit being the boss of the world
I quit being unhappy, one day at a time
I quit smoking and quit
I walked each day and quit
I quit drinking on my own with no support and quit
I eat too many sweets and never quit
I drink too much coffee and never quit
I am too judgmental and never quit
I drank alcohol daily for years and never quit for more than 30 days
8 months ago I quit drinking alcohol
It is the longest period of time I have ever quit anything that was bad for me.
I could not do it on my own.
Daily I do what I need to do to stay sober
I quit not listening to others and quit being the boss of the world
I quit being unhappy, one day at a time
Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: uk east yorkshire
Posts: 115
there is no god, god is man made, look at all the religion, where you are made to believe the same god as the rest of (your chosen religion)
a intervenious god (if one exists) would be a right t--t look at all the bad and evil in the world, famine, drought, rape, child abduction, poverty, the list goes on.
now this is where the problem gets even worse as if I don't believe in god how am I supposed to hand my will and life over to a higher power?
electric is a power greater than myself, but I cant hand my drinking problem over to it ?
the police are more powerful than me, but I cant get them to make me stop drinking, unless I commit a crime that lands me in jail, then I suppose I wont be drinking for a while.
why does everything have to boil down to god
when I sit in a aa meeting and some of them preach, I feel sick, because it sounds like make belief fairy tails or santa claws.
no god will take my drinking obsession away.
a intervenious god (if one exists) would be a right t--t look at all the bad and evil in the world, famine, drought, rape, child abduction, poverty, the list goes on.
now this is where the problem gets even worse as if I don't believe in god how am I supposed to hand my will and life over to a higher power?
electric is a power greater than myself, but I cant hand my drinking problem over to it ?
the police are more powerful than me, but I cant get them to make me stop drinking, unless I commit a crime that lands me in jail, then I suppose I wont be drinking for a while.
why does everything have to boil down to god
when I sit in a aa meeting and some of them preach, I feel sick, because it sounds like make belief fairy tails or santa claws.
no god will take my drinking obsession away.
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
Originally Posted by fastfocus
there is no god, god is man made, look at all the religion, where you are made to believe the same god as the rest of (your chosen religion)
a intervenious god (if one exists) would be a right t--t look at all the bad and evil in the world, famine, drought, rape, child abduction, poverty, the list goes on.
now this is where the problem gets even worse as if I don't believe in god how am I supposed to hand my will and life over to a higher power?
electric is a power greater than myself, but I cant hand my drinking problem over to it ?
the police are more powerful than me, but I cant get them to make me stop drinking, unless I commit a crime that lands me in jail, then I suppose I wont be drinking for a while.
why does everything have to boil down to god
when I sit in a aa meeting and some of them preach, I feel sick, because it sounds like make belief fairy tails or santa claws.
no god will take my drinking obsession away.
a intervenious god (if one exists) would be a right t--t look at all the bad and evil in the world, famine, drought, rape, child abduction, poverty, the list goes on.
now this is where the problem gets even worse as if I don't believe in god how am I supposed to hand my will and life over to a higher power?
electric is a power greater than myself, but I cant hand my drinking problem over to it ?
the police are more powerful than me, but I cant get them to make me stop drinking, unless I commit a crime that lands me in jail, then I suppose I wont be drinking for a while.
why does everything have to boil down to god
when I sit in a aa meeting and some of them preach, I feel sick, because it sounds like make belief fairy tails or santa claws.
no god will take my drinking obsession away.
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