Ptcapote

((Nuu))

There is some amazing wisdom here that I have greatly benefited from reading...thank you for posting this!

You know my story but I also found I was awkward and shy and freaked the heck out by vulnerability and dating. So I did kind of what EndGame describes and bounced back and forth from what was probably way too much openness and vulnerability and then battening down the hatches and hiding when I got uncomfortable.

I did like what doyoureallycare2 said above, though. I also think that you do need to listen to our instincts when you get past wondering about whether your vulnerability was just covered up by your drinking or not. For me, I got plenty of signs that the guy and I were not a match but I kept ignoring it because I thought this was the "new, sober me" and was just uncomfortable because I was operating without lubricant. In the end, it was a bit of both but if I had paid attention to my instincts earlier, it might have been less time invested in what was clearly a not-going-to-work relationship.

And, at least from what I see here, you have got a very good sense of who you are and express vulnerability quite well. Again, know this is an online forum and not a "live date." And our personalities definitely do change and we discover things sober that we forgot or never knew were there.

But just pay attention to your gut, too. If this progresses and you still feel uncomfortable being vulnerable...well, just pay attention.

Love ya, girlfriend. And so glad you posted this.

Nuudawn

Thank you Pt..Heartcore....EG...although each and EVERY response held a gift for me..there were things about these that really, really hit home...hard.

I was panicked today..and in my fear texted a question to my new..whatever he is. I asked if he was being weird or it was "just my imagination". I got a very lengthy text response about "how busy he was"...

Words cannot describe how painful to be told someone is "busy"...when someone is in fear.
Yes..perhaps he is "busy".
But I cannot...
will not...
ignore the pain..the real emotion that lurched in my heart when I read that response..
So ya...
I'm batting down the hatches.
I couldn't even look at my phone for the remainder of the day.

Relationships...and sobriety are made..when it gets real..when it gets hard...

I have to take care of me right now...
That's ALL I know...

EndGameNYC

Yeah, I get that, Nuudawn.

My heart often interpreted being "busy' as something more sinister, a kind of relationship code for "I'm moving away from you but don't want to hurt your feelings." (AKA, "It's not you, it's me.") Sadly, my heart was right on more than one occasion. On the other hand, I've also been with people who actually were insanely busy, and we either worked this out or we didn't. I've learned a great deal from my early missteps in relationships, and too often at the cost of the emotional distress you describe.

Not everyone knows how to fit a budding relationship into an otherwise busy schedule. After all, people who are successful in life tend to have made choices along the way that fill up their time. Someone who's chronically unemployed and who easily works us in around their prolonged but flexible Xbox sessions may not be the greatest partner.

I'm not at all proud to admit that I've also used coded messages in an effort to avoid my own discomfort around breaking off a relationship early on...work, illness, family, important appointments to keep, whatever. And I too have made the unfortunate mistake of communicating that I've been very busy when this has been the case without further elaboration as to if and how much this would or would not affect the time I was either willing or able to make for the other person. Live and learn.

No. No one likes to hear the words "I'm very busy" early on. When I've been on the receiving end of this, I've tended to withdraw, and then go about my business. Not every relationship, for me, was worth fighting for. Looked at another way, perhaps my passivity at those times was the best fight I could muster? Sometimes they called back, sometimes they didn't.

As other people have commented, the beginning of a relationship is often a special kind of emotional hell that can bring out both the best and the worst in us. I've referred to it as a kind of madness, given the intensity of my wildly vacillating thoughts and feelings, disruption of sleep and appetite, and exquisite states of vulnerability, often quickly followed by fleeting feelings of omnipotence.

As haennie suggested, love, genuine connection and intimacy are impossible without vulnerability. How else to connect on a deeper level? I'm certain that were anyone to Google "power vulnerability" you'd get all kinds of versions of how and why this is so.

With all that having been said, the ride has typically been worth it for me, regardless of the eventual outcome. Much better than a palpable indifference or in inability to feel anything at all.

Perhaps the final indignity or, looked at another way, the final triumph, is that I often woke up one day and longingly wondered where all the sweet insanity of early courtship went?

Lola23

Oh Nuu!! ((((HUGS)))

Sorry to hear that, I know how that feels. Keep us updated will you?

Altoids

Sending hugs and support, Nu. <3

Aellyce

I was going to write a similar post to EndGame's above, but luckily he beat me and now I can go back to being busy with work

Seriously, maybe just one line of relevant thought, which will branch out into many I am sure. You express a concern and fear regarding your "not being good at intimacy". I think it's not very meaningful to think about it this way, since intimacy is NEVER a one person thing, you don't do it alone, you are not good at it or struggle with it on your own. In my view, the most important components of relationships are the actual interface, the connection, and compatibility. This was touched upon above in a few posts on this thread in various forms. When we meet someone new, what we usually sense in a more instinctual way is the attraction (the different forms of it), and when we connect with the person, we feel if we have a good interpersonal "chemistry" or not. In my experience, some people are stronger or more into feeling this than others... I personally am one of those who tends to trust this "sense" (or lack thereof) almost as a blind follower in the beginning, when I meet someone new, both because I think it's very strong in me somehow and also because of my experiences. But it does not mean it has always led me to the best choices - often I chose someone because they reflected something in myself that was really not at the best place.

But these are just the initial moments of a new connection. Then come all the exploration, during which we usually figure out through trial and error, joy and pain, elation and desperation, and everything in between, how compatible the combo is for a real relationship, beyond infatuation. And THIS is the first hard work, and then of course the maintenance as well. I say "hard work" because there are just so many traps, psychological "tricks" our minds tend to play, illusions, projections, etc etc that can very easily interfere with our seeing the reality of the relationship, the connection, and the compatibility. At this phase, I usually like to use much more than just instincts, my hormones, and whatever mechanism generates the attraction, to evaluate the relationship. Use a bit more rationality as well, try to see it for what it is as much as possible. This is challenging of course because how can we be objective about these kinds of things? But it's worth cooling it a little, in my experience. Now we can see what we are capable of doing, experiencing, and transcending truly as a couple.

Now if it still passes and becomes more stable, in my view that's the phase that truly deserves the name "love". A more mature, functional, compatible companionship.
Not that it's a good idea to expect it to last forever, ever

I think all these phases are always both exciting and difficult at the same time, in many different ways!

So based on your descriptions, Nuu - I would give this man and yourself a little space now, but not in ways that's isolating or detaching. Just a little patience. I know it's hard... Maybe set times for communication if he is very busy, but when you are there, do use it! I am also guilty of the phenomenon of saying "I am busy" (in various forms) both as 100% truth and as an excuse, and I am glad that you posted about this because it's a good reminder for me to be direct and honest as much as possible.

Again, what I wanted to emphasize most is that intimacy is NOT something to be judged as an ability you have, or struggle with, alone on your own, it's always an interplay and maybe better as "we have a good intimate connection" or "we are not very compatible as intimate partners". I think people teach each-other in this area constantly, and it's truly something we can develop and evolve as long as we are alive! This is at least how I feel about it.

Hope you are having a better day today. Now I'll really go back to my busi-ness - this thread of yours is distracting in a very good way

EndGameNYC

Some would argue that if we weren't blinded by early infatuation, we'd never get together at all. I'd argue that people don't stay together for the same reasons that they got together. How many people haven't known someone who leaves their relationships once the luster fades?

Pre-civilized human beings were free of worries around infidelity, divorce and birth control, yet those same instincts are generally what draw us together in the first place.

Meraviglioso

First, a big hug to you Nuudawn, I admire your charisma and attitude. It takes courage to post what you posted and open up like that, particularly if you are someone who struggles with vulnerability and intimacy.

I wanted to second what Endgame said here. For all my faults and character flaws, I consider myself to be incredibly lucky in love. I can be somewhat shy in social situations, but one on one, in romance I have no problem opening up or allowing myself to be vulnerable. Sometimes this has been scary, sometimes this has resulted in agonizing emotional pain, but it has always been worth it. On the other side of the pain has been the times the bet paid off and I was able to experience incredible joy, giddiness, love, comfort. Yes, I agree, it is definitely worth taking the risk.

Good luck to you Nuu.

Aellyce

I think after a certain age, most of us have had relationships that started out very "hot" in the infatuation phase and then did not survive anything else, and also ones that weren't such a "madness" initially but turned out very interesting and compatible later (so it would have been a pity to drop them for a hotter in in the beginning, something I admit I did several times and then went back to revisit them later).

The infatuation and instincts are of course extremely powerful regardless of culture and historical era, simply because they serve the survival of the species. And as a parallel mechanism, this is also why addiction can be so stubborn and so hard to quit: because it hijacks some of the same pathways in our brains whose primary function is to serve our basic needs and facilitate survival (the "reward circuit" as neuroscience calls it). Funny how often I find people (who are not familiar with this science) that get offended when I make this statement. They do, I think, because it "violates" our sense of conscious control. But want it or not, these are not processes that we can easily influence with willpower, as we know. True for both those instincts that drive attraction and survival, and those that, when out of natural balance, can generate addictions. This is why people even get "addicted" to each-other, to love, or what we perceive as love.

Mera - I feel the same way about myself and my love life. I agree with you that to a very large extent, this is luck, and I don't mean it in a sense that we "happened to" encounter good people and be in fulfilling relationships. I think it's luck in a sense that we most likely did not have experiences in our lives (especially in early life), outside of our control and choices, that would have caused very significant deviations and problems in this area. (Look up info related to "attachment theory" for more.) I guess we can say cherish this luck; we all have areas of life where we are luckier and others where we are less so. We all have our personal challenges.

melki

(((Nuudawn))) You are in my thoughts!!! Relationships are not easy. Give yourself some space and keep busy otherwise. It's good that you are paying attention to what you're feeling, but sometimes our feelings are not indicative of the other person's intentions. It still amazes me how often my husband and I perceive the same situation in very different ways. Keeping honest communication open is the only thing that I have found to work so far... Wishing you lots of support now. We're here for you!

EndGameNYC

The Benefits of Bad Relationships | Psychology Today

The Benefits of Bad Relationships
How Irrelationship Protects Us From Love's Anxieties
Published on September 12, 2014 by Mark B. Borg, Jr., Ph.D, Grant H. Brenner, MD, and Daniel Berry, RN, MHA in Irrelationship

Every time Sam gets that sinking feeling that his partner Claire isn’t quite as grateful as she should be, he tosses out this harsh criticism. And Claire is getting pretty tired of hearing his endless tirade.

The truth is, Sam does do a lot for Claire. He takes care of her practical and financial needs, and he believes he can and does meet all her emotional needs, as well.

Claire can’t quite say why, but recently she feels uneasy and almost queasy over the way Sam “fusses” over her. Claire has begun to wonder if the driving force behind Sam’s “I take such good care of you” rant is really not about her at all, but instead, that it meets some kind of unspoken need or compulsion inside of him.

Irrelationship is a two-person psychological defense system that the participants co-create and inhabit together. It protects each player from the insecurity and vulnerability that would happen in a genuinely loving Real Relationship. By compulsive giving til it hurts and compulsively accepting care-taking, couples enact what we call dissociated states that create a “safe” “Not-Me” distance from having to feel any shattering anxiety. This kind of agreement keeps people separate, operating in their own spheres, often reacting to childhood situations that happened long ago. They never grow up and leave their old song-and-dance routine behind and instead re-create it over and over again. It provides a wall of so-called protection and sadly excludes mutuality and reciprocity

Of course there is a kind of twisted attraction that happens between people that have strong behavioral imperatives that defend them against the anxiety of intimacy. Each individual encounters in the other a person a feeling of excitement and a regard so profound that he fears he will be unable to control that person’s impact on her or his life. Old, unrecognized fears of abandonment dating from ineffective parenting received as a small children drive them either to negotiate a “safe” relational agreement (i.e., an irrelationship) with each other or to flee.

If the couple finds each other suitable candidates for negotiation, they proceed wordlessly to set the rules by which their irrelationship will ‘function.’ In the case of Sam and Claire, the main rules are that Sam is to take care of Claire and Claire is to show explicit appreciation and gratitude for Sam’s ministrations. Now that Claire is wise to this dysfunction and fed up as well, she wants to change the rules. On some level, she “knows” that their roles and rules don’t add up to genuine love or partnership. Or if it were love, she knows that exposing her vulnerabilities and needs would upset their silent agreement, and then what would happen?

Hitting Bottom

Sam, meanwhile, silences his real caring for Claire by refusing anything, any kind of genuine care, that she has to offer. The message in this is: you don’t have anything valuable to offer; and, at a deeper level, you have no value. He was so frightened by the uncontrollable magnitude of his initial feelings for her—and the powerful insecurity that he felt by having his heart genuinely at risk.

Finally, in therapy Sam admits his Performer role is leaving him empty, and recognizes that through deliberate but unconscious choices, i.e., their relational rules, he had walled off the very qualities in Claire that thrilled him. The game changed when Sam again accused Claire of not appreciating all that he did for her. Claire suddenly countered, for the very first time, “Sam, you actually don’t do anything ‘for’ me! You do it for you—so that you get to look like the one with all the good stuff to give.” Suddenly their unspoken agreement shattered. Without quite realizing it, both had abandoned their typical roles and transactions that kept this irrelationship going. (Going nowhere…) They finally had to make a decision. Were they interested enough in one another and courageous enough to break pattern and explore the possibility of a real life together or not?

The Beginnings of Real Relationship

Claire didn’t run: she dug in her heels and said to Sam, “You do ‘all the giving’ without taking—without accepting anything—anything—from me except my thanking your for your ‘generosity.’ Do you know where that leaves me? It leaves me feeling that I have nothing worthwhile, nothing of any value to give you. My whole importance in your life is telling you how ‘wonderful’ you are. And I just can’t do it anymore. I want to feel like I really matter.”

Sam was aghast, angry and—terrified. Like Claire, however, rather than turning tail, he turned a corner. After several moments of silence, tears filled his eyes. Finally he was able to say, “Oh, my God, Claire—you don’t know, you just don’t know, how much you mean to me. The one thing I’m most afraid of is that you’ll discover I’m nothing to you and then you’ll leave.”

That was the beginning of Sam and Claire finally breaking out of their irrelationship. But it took some time. They needed to tease out feelings and explore their childhoods in depth before they could put the pieces together and see how they’d constructed a life that undermined what they most wanted with one another – a true partnership. With the help of their therapist, they began to build a whole new way of being together, and, for the first time, discovered intimacy at last.

Visit our website: Irrelationship - Love Advice, Relationship Advice, Self-help

Aellyce

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCIaj-oLi28

Eddiebuckle

Nuu,

What you are feeling about last weekend is not evidence that you "suck at this intimacy stuff" - it is evidence that honesty in early relationships is very hard. Hollywood and Madison Avenue have done a huge disservice by promoting the myth that romance is the genesis of love and happiness. Romance is the starters gun going off - love is the marathon.

I think the adage of avoiding new relationships in the first year is solid advice because staying sober is a marathon unto itself, and that most folks in early sobriety are too easily distracted by the rush we get from early romance to stay the course.

I can say this - if you take it slow and recognize that the heavy lifting associated with a new relationship needs to take a back seat to recovery for the first 12+ months, incredible things are possible. At the ripe old age of 48 this alcoholic (last drink Dec 2009) got married for the first time 17 days ago. Five years ago I would have never believed this could happen to me. By good fortune, I found someone who was willing to have our relationship be second to my sobriety for those early months. I am humbled by her patience and the love it took to set her needs aside during those tough early days. I am truly blessed.

Keep your eyes on the prize and keep the faith, the journey is worth the effort.

Nuudawn

Like you EG...my interpretation was yes.."I'm moving away from you so just eff off and die quietly".

Today was terrible, horrible day in my head. What made it worse was work was painfully slow which just allowed me to grind on it ...all...day...long.
Eventually it was hard to breathe.
I texted him.
In short, he lengthy diatribe about how busy he was in response to my question...was a triggered response from his old relationship (despite his seeming inability to understand my own trigger...I digress). I interpreted his lengthy defensive diatribe about every damn thing he had to get done yesterday as his way of saying "my life is far too busy for you missy..so go!".
Ya..something like that. Apparently he was exasperated that he found himself explaining every minutia of is schedule...AGAIN. And that was the very thing I found so incredibly...heartwrenching. Why ALL OF THIS all of a sudden.
So ya...fun stuff.
Our exchange was mostly via text..probably best given the heated emotions.and I was left with the feeling that he was most incensed that I had doubted his character and intentions..
(well believe me buster...THAT's what was wrecking me the most. Was my picker insufferably broken and should I join the freaking convent??).

Anyhoo...I have no idea how much damage was done to the ...seed.

But as this spectacular thread (thank you all) has illustrated...new relationships are freaking hard...
Maybe especially when you've been round the block a time or two and your sporting sooooo many war wounds.

All I know..is I am so forever grateful that he is not the horrid person I had painted in my head earlier today. Win or lose...I need to retain that he is the solid man I believed he was. He is. Doesn't mean he is my man..but he is a good one. I really needed that most of all.

If you haven't already figured ..the reason it got so damn...spazzy and freaky is because ..well we took our 2 month courtship to the next .er um..level. And ya..I was stone cold sober.

So ya...maybe I freaked out a little. Maybe I got scared and made a big old major motion picture of pain, betrayal and abandonment in my head.
Go figure.

But hey..the good news is...despite the living hell I was in today...a DRINK was the FURTHEST thing from my mind.
That's a win...ain't it?

Venecia

You're doggone right it is.

Hang in there, Nuu. Despite the angst, this has been an informative thread. I'm thinking of tip-toeing back into that world. Scared. To. Death.

You're going to be OK. No matter what.

EndGameNYC

The events of the "next level," like new relationships, provide opportunities for us to be or to feel excited or apprehensive, joyful or despondent, alive or flat, centered or rudderless, enthusiastic or indifferent, relaxed or panicked, exhilarated or bored, forward-looking or stuck...Sleepy, Dopey and Doc. And all of these within a moment's time.

All other creatures have the good sense not to attempt such things.