Aellyce

DoubleDragons, I don't think that our internal code of values is derived from rationality and logic primarily. It's much more an intuitive or instinctual phenomenon, in my view at least. When we say "I feel this is the right thing to do". Probably a lot of it is also unconscious, so we may not be immediately aware of where it comes from. Perhaps some of these situations are also what people describe as spiritual.

However, in the specific case you are describing, perhaps it's more that your mom criticized you in some ways or blamed you, maybe not even directly... and you continue carrying influences from this despite of disagreeing rationally.

There is a lot of interesting literature on morality... I might post something later.

SonomaGal

Releasing guilt/shame/regret - A close friend and I recently went to the beach, wrote down all the things we could remember that we felt badly about, read each others aloud, and then burned them in a little sand pit. It felt good and we both got an emotional release from it. A week later we wrote a similar list of all the things we hoped for, read each others aloud, and burned them in a BBQ. That felt even better

A simple little exercise that helped me.

Aellyce

I think a similar^^ "release" is exactly what 12-step programs provide for. But instead of burning it, people try to correct within realistic boundaries (amends) and then take it to a further destination to help others do the same. This feature of the 12-step program is what I personally like in it, how I got interested in it when I did (well, still stuck at the interest phase as I have not worked the program) - I see some of the people who have worked the steps seriously and admire the attitude and integrity of some of them. OK, enough of this, not supposed to be a 12-step discussion

NightsWatch

It sounds like she is manipulating you, whether she is consciously aware of it or not. I'm going to assume this isn't her first time doing this? I imagine that if you grew up with that sort of behavior from her, it can lead to taking on guilt that isn't yours. I know you already realize it isn't rational, so at least a part of your recognizes that; I think feelings sometimes take longer to catch up. Just know that you did nothing wrong and your mom is probably using one of her defense mechanisms (which imo, doesn't bode well). It's hard when you feel a parent disapproves or withdraws, but unfortunately, that's something you have to deal with with the mother you have.

soberlicious

Making amends is important. Righting your wrongs with others dates back to the beginning of time (whenever that is...). Certainly not a practice exclusive to the addicted. My third graders learn how and why the ability to do this is important in life.

jdooner

I am finishing my 4th step with my sponsor. It has taken two weeks, where as previously it took 6 months and I was stuck. I have been using the Jungian Recall methodology. I have been experiencing the most vivid and intense dreams this past week. The point is this process digs into the psyche and understanding various emotions embedded within my inventory of resentments and fears. Step #5, which I will be completing this weekend is sharing all the sordid details with another human, in my case my sponsor to release my pain I have been carrying for most of my life and ask the God of my understanding to remove these character defects.

I would have laughed at this post. Even a few months ago I did not believe AA would work. But then everything came together for me. What I can say form this experience so far is I am lighter. I have nothing to hide and this is liberating. My obsession has been removed and I am learning to live within a new framework, a life that I am creating and want more than an active life. It has been the hardest thing I have ever done beyond building a multinational company. It is what I am most proud of because without this I nothing else is sustainable in my life.

DefconOne

For a true alcoholic with an advanced condition who has gone through in depth treatment and counseling sometimes many times over, relapses are a real form of insanity. By that I mean, its probably sane to think about drinking, but to actually give in AND drink after all you have been through and learned is insane. The Big Book says some people can't be saved. Its sad. I'm fighting against this insanity one day at a time.

wpainterw

To me, the sad part about alcoholism is the likelihood that, with some alcoholics, the drinking has progressed so far that the more rational parts of the brain have been almost entirely numbed and largely disabled, and, correspondingly, the more primitive parts of the brain, what has been called the seat of the AV, have been enormously empowered. Although recovery is always possible, the long climb back up the slippery slope may be only for the moat committed and courageous. In this situation alcoholism has become a form of insanity and when a person says "I relapsed", determining just who "I" is may not be just a semantic quibble. For is it not possible that the "I" which was formerly there has largely vanished or become just a shadow? This is not to excuse the behavior which results. But it highlights the need to consider how to prevent further harm both to the alcoholic (self inflicted) and to others.

W.

Renarde

Brilliant, thanks for this.

Aellyce

This story got my attention and also broke my heart from start.
Internal Harvard report shines light on misconduct by star psychology researcher, Marc Hauser - Metro - The Boston Globe

Marc Hauser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jdooner

If I was fighting things one day at a time, I would never be able to succeed. Its like treading water in the Ocean for the rest of your life, I am bound to take in some water.

For me when I accepted the situation and accepted myself and released all the fight is when the change occured.

Wars are not won in terms of humanity. What is won by killing other men...because you hold different beliefs? Fights are not won because we fight with anger. Anger spawns from fear. Fear is a manifestation of resentments. Resentments are collected. I needed to release my resentments to be free from the shackles of this disease.

desypete

i would agree with you here that for you the idea of fighting one day at time seems to hard to cope with but thats exactly how it was for me in early days and sometimes can be many years on

i have had to fight for everything as my head tells me not to
anything new comes a long i will have to fight my own head as it will always be filling me with rubbish that is always negitive

i must say today many years on i just know how my head works so i have learned to practice doing opposites

i had to learn that how i felt wasnt indeed a true fact it was just me reacting to how i felt

i can only talk about me as i am an expert on me only i can not talk about you or how you do things
the only teacher in life that i found to work best for me is pain as i am just no good at listening to wisdom as i know it all until it hurts then i end up looking at other ways

thankfully i dont live exactly like it anymore as i have grown and learn t so much
i am growing and learning daily but sometime i have to fight myself
for example i might hear shares at an aa meeting all about god and i have to fight myself to not react to it
without that fight i am lost

but i have learned to open my gob just causes anger in people who do believe so do i love them or do i want them to hurt ?

i love them so its gob shut time

but it still doesnt mean i dont have that inner fight going on
some people need to pray for it were as i have come to recognize it if i am feeling uncomfortable or if someone says something i dont like i tell myself to shut up and leave them be

it does work if we work it for me that is

lucky for us all we are all different and some of us have to fight ourselves and some dont
i honestly dont really believe in people who dont have to fight themselves and there changed from reacting to things
but then maybe that my own problem may be these people are telling the truth
but when i see even old timers in meetings having to face something hard in life i see them go into the same routine as i do they hurt, they want the outcome to be different from what it is, they moan about it they unload it they are fighting it inside themselves just like me, but in the end they come to learn to accept it then they find peace again

but like i say there may well be alcoholics out there that can simply say a prayer and its all gone and they have acceptance ?

but only for me i know my life doesnt work like that and i accept its going to be like this for the rest of my life
doesnt mean its full of doom or sadness as i am happy most days but then i have to do things to keep me happy on the inside of me

like looking at others who are far worse off than me and just being grateful its not me anymore et

sorry for rabbiting on : )

jdooner

Desy - you have more fight in you than most I have come across. I pray for you and will continue to do so.

I too have trauma and much in terms of resentments. I am being released from these though. This allowed me to forgive myself and see that I was not responsible for some of the traumas that happened to me. It also resulted in my own manifestation of fear and resetments in others. But release is through acceptance and in some cases ammends for me.

I take no comfort in seeing others that are worse off than me. I only see time and progression in those poor souls, as we share the same affliction and many of the same pains. I am fortunate that someone helped show me The Solution that has worked for me and I am excited to do the same with others.

desypete

i know your excited about your new found freedom jd that much is clear in your posts
its a great feeling to find yourself free from drink
i was lucky to have people around me in aa that helped me keep my feet on the ground with a good old fashioned kick up the backside from time to time : )

in fact you remind me of me when i was in younger years as i to wanted to spread the word or in my case run off and drag people out of bars and save them
thankfully my many years of experience have taught me much that i can not pass on to anyone unitl they have experienced the same things

each time i thought i had this thing now i ended up back to the drawing board
the steps without doubt changed me and my thinking and how i live my life today
if someone tells me to get down on my hands and knees and thank a god for what i have got i say why ? what for ?
also i would have to throw in my argument of losing my son and all the other kids who are going to die today
so i will not say thank you to a power who would chose to ignore such suffering
it just doesnt make sence to me

now ask me to get down on my hands and knees and pray to aa and the people in aa well i would do that if it was what was needed to say thanks to them
as for me and its only for me its the people who helped me and who guided me
just like the fellowship has helped and guided them many of them do belive its a god who has shown them but i personaly think its because they have worked there steps and come to see themselves in a true light

if i held up a mirror on me how i once was i would lock that person up and throw away the key
but if i hold that same mirror up to me today i would let that person out of prison as he is working hard trying to change how he was

to change i had to pratcise doing things differently but i know my inner self is still there and at any moment it can show its ugly head
hence i believe there is no cure for this illness as i will never be cured i might go years without drinking and not suffer from craving for a drink but deep down my illness inisde of me is still going to be always there

i am much futher up the road than i was when i came into aa and my heartflet thanks is for aa and the people in it who gave up there time to help me
they might be doing it as they believe in god and its gods will there following or not but the fact is its pretty amazing given the selfish nature of alcoholics to ever do anything without something in it for them

if i am totaly honest i guess my love for helping others and new comers and putting myself out is a selfish motive as i know what i get out of it when i do it rather than sitting at home doing nothing etc

some people have told me i have god in my life and i am living gods life but i dont know it lol

i honestly dont believe in a god that can save anyone by just praying for it i know i tired with me son and i have seen others pray and get the so called answer no
it just doesnt make sense to me to be true were as aa and the people in it and the results around the rooms i can not argue with but that is just down to aa and the people in it as if it wasn't there then there is nothing

i know it flys in the face of what you believe in jd and many others do as well so i have learned to respect people who do believe in god and not yell from the roof tops there isnt one : )
it can be hard to resist at times but if i do it more so in a meeting then i soon know i have hurt somoene and i have to put it right as thats not what i mean to do but its me again being me and not living the way i should do or have been reprogramed to do these days

all i know is that i am practicing it and i am getting better at shutting my gob lol

edit
just as i say that i look up and see how many words i have just typed up lol some shuting my gob eh ? : )

RobbyRobot

Well said, Desy. You are clearly more able to express yourself without slamming the experience of others. We learn as we go, and that is good enough for any of us. Awesome.

jdooner

Desy - you and I would and perhaps will be friends as we agree more than disagree. I project sometimes and have been guilty of this with you. It is because I care but often it is wrong and you are right, we cannot save someone from having their own experience even if we identify the likely outcome.

I respect you more than you probably know. You have endured somethign I don't believe I would be able to. You have remained sober too. Yet I see some of myself in you. And its in these reflections that I want to share out of good intentions. I just want the best for you.

I did not all of a sudden find God and that was the change. But I did have a deeply spiritual experience and a shift occured. It has allowed me to accept and forgive and perhaps htis is what you might see in my tenor.

I appreciate your contributions and respect you as a man!