Returning
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Welcome back, Mentium.
I do remember you.
For most people in AA, meetings aren't enough. Few people stay sober by occupying a chair for an hour each night. AA is not magic. The AA Big Book says nothing about going to meetings, doing ninety meetings in ninety days, or going to more meetings when things get rough. It's about working towards spiritual fitness by working the AA Big Book Twelve Steps.
About twp years ago, I heard a guy say at a meeting, "The definition of insanity is participating in a twelve-stop program and not doing the twelve steps."
People who carry prejudice towards AA will likely frame this as "tough love" or the words of a Big Book "thumper" or a religious zealot. The reality is, whatever type of treatment or program we adopt to change our lives, change cannot and will not occur without active participation, without actively cooperating with our recovery.
I do remember you.
For most people in AA, meetings aren't enough. Few people stay sober by occupying a chair for an hour each night. AA is not magic. The AA Big Book says nothing about going to meetings, doing ninety meetings in ninety days, or going to more meetings when things get rough. It's about working towards spiritual fitness by working the AA Big Book Twelve Steps.
About twp years ago, I heard a guy say at a meeting, "The definition of insanity is participating in a twelve-stop program and not doing the twelve steps."
People who carry prejudice towards AA will likely frame this as "tough love" or the words of a Big Book "thumper" or a religious zealot. The reality is, whatever type of treatment or program we adopt to change our lives, change cannot and will not occur without active participation, without actively cooperating with our recovery.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North of England
Posts: 1,442
'Prejudice'? I'm sorry but I am not willing to believe in things there is no evidence for. I can't willingly overrule my own views can I? I do however believe that AA can get and keep people sober - I have seen it. I also believe people do so without recourse to spirit in the sky that probably doesn't exist. There are many agnostics and atheists in AA and much literature about approaching it from those angles.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
[QUOTE=Mentium;4354406]I do however believe that AA can get and keep people sober - [/QUOTE
This is true, and it was all the evidence I needed in order to get deep into the 12 Steps and recover.
I'm in no way going to try to convince you to take this path, Mentium. It's just fine if you want to go to meetings and disregard the actual program of AA. I'll just say again that I've personally watched several hundred people fail to stay sober by doing that. I've never seen someone fail that has thoroughly taken the Steps as outlined in the BB.
I walked into AA as a staunch atheist who thought the idea of a 'higher power' was a crutch for weak minded sheep. A lot of us (about 1/2 of the original fellowship) came in that way and found that we could recover simply by following the explicit directions. There are some 'musts' involved, one of these being to lay aside any preconceived notions I may have about this 'god' thing, and be willing to believe in something. Although I emphatically did not believe, my inability to stay sober made me willing to. That was all it took for me to recover.
Best of luck to you!
This is true, and it was all the evidence I needed in order to get deep into the 12 Steps and recover.
I'm in no way going to try to convince you to take this path, Mentium. It's just fine if you want to go to meetings and disregard the actual program of AA. I'll just say again that I've personally watched several hundred people fail to stay sober by doing that. I've never seen someone fail that has thoroughly taken the Steps as outlined in the BB.
I walked into AA as a staunch atheist who thought the idea of a 'higher power' was a crutch for weak minded sheep. A lot of us (about 1/2 of the original fellowship) came in that way and found that we could recover simply by following the explicit directions. There are some 'musts' involved, one of these being to lay aside any preconceived notions I may have about this 'god' thing, and be willing to believe in something. Although I emphatically did not believe, my inability to stay sober made me willing to. That was all it took for me to recover.
Best of luck to you!
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by Mentium 
'Prejudice'? I'm sorry but I am not willing to believe in things there is no evidence for. I can't willingly overrule my own views can I? I do however believe that AA can get and keep people sober - I have seen it. I also believe people do so without recourse to spirit in the sky that probably doesn't exist. There are many agnostics and atheists in AA and much literature about approaching it from those angles.
Be well.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North of England
Posts: 1,442
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
My intention was not to provoke and argument, and my comments were not directed at you personally. Before you responded to my comments, I had no idea where you stood with AA.
Be well.
Be well.
Nice to see you are still here Lorelei!
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Hi Mentiun. Not to quibble, but it sounds more like you are an agnostic than an atheist. An atheist is someone who denies the existence of a deity. An agnostic is someone who believes it impossible to know anything about God or if in fact one exists.
I don’t think there are a lot of true atheists. In my view this requires some proof of nonexistence, and that’s a very tall order.
Soooo… ask yourself if the evidence presented itself, would you be willing to believe in some form of deity. If you say no, then I would ask you to consider if you can, in good conscience, call yourself open minded. If you say you would be willing to believe, given sufficient evidence, then I would suggest that you do the steps with a truly open mind.
I share these thoughts because I entered AA as a non-believer in any sort of ‘spirit in the sky’. I required evidence, and I got it. No need to respond specifically to my thoughts. I do not wish to start a debate, with you or anyone else. I’m just offering a different perspective and something to consider. My hope is that it might help you in moving forward.
All the best to you.
I don’t think there are a lot of true atheists. In my view this requires some proof of nonexistence, and that’s a very tall order.
Soooo… ask yourself if the evidence presented itself, would you be willing to believe in some form of deity. If you say no, then I would ask you to consider if you can, in good conscience, call yourself open minded. If you say you would be willing to believe, given sufficient evidence, then I would suggest that you do the steps with a truly open mind.
I share these thoughts because I entered AA as a non-believer in any sort of ‘spirit in the sky’. I required evidence, and I got it. No need to respond specifically to my thoughts. I do not wish to start a debate, with you or anyone else. I’m just offering a different perspective and something to consider. My hope is that it might help you in moving forward.
All the best to you.
So good that you are back in the fold 
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,444
Welcome back Mentium 
Regarding the flatness...I was blah for a fairly long time....but I'd drunk for a very long time too.
People told me it would get better - I didn't really believe them...I considered feeling blah was just the way my sobriety would be
But I stayed sober, I worked on my self and my life (and my patience) and eventually...the joy came back.
I wish the same for you Mentium
Oh...and my advice is keep it simple...I got caught up in a lot of arguments early on...some were real slights and others imagined...it riled me up, it got the blood flowing...but none of it helped me stay sober.
God, no god...AA or not...meetings or steps, whatever...
just don't drink. Make that your priority.
Do whatever it takes to make that stick
D
Regarding the flatness...I was blah for a fairly long time....but I'd drunk for a very long time too.
People told me it would get better - I didn't really believe them...I considered feeling blah was just the way my sobriety would be
But I stayed sober, I worked on my self and my life (and my patience) and eventually...the joy came back.
I wish the same for you Mentium
Oh...and my advice is keep it simple...I got caught up in a lot of arguments early on...some were real slights and others imagined...it riled me up, it got the blood flowing...but none of it helped me stay sober.
God, no god...AA or not...meetings or steps, whatever...
just don't drink. Make that your priority.
Do whatever it takes to make that stick
D
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,955
Originally Posted by Mentium
'Prejudice'? I'm sorry but I am not willing to believe in things there is no evidence for. I can't willingly overrule my own views can I? I do however believe that AA can get and keep people sober - I have seen it. I also believe people do so without recourse to spirit in the sky that probably doesn't exist. There are many agnostics and atheists in AA and much literature about approaching it from those angles.
Anyhow, I'm an AA member of the secular variety. My spiritual awaking is pure naturalistic and I'm all the better for it. I would encourage you to be true to yourself, forget the naysayers and keep moving forward.
" in relation to AA – or similar words like “atheist” or “freethinker” – we are simply referring to the specific wisdom of groups and individuals within the fellowship who understand that a belief in “God” is not necessary for recovery from alcoholism." - About AA Agnostica | AA Agnostica
AA Agnostica
AA Agnostics of the San Franscisco Bay Area
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North of England
Posts: 1,442
Thanks all for your words of encouragement. Into day two after what I think of as a shortish lapse, so no withdrawal as such to deal with (a restless and not very sleep filled nights aside).
Dee - your advice to keep it simple is taken to heart. I over-complicate things at times.
Dee - your advice to keep it simple is taken to heart. I over-complicate things at times.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,937
Hi! Of course, I remember you Mentium! I joined not long after you did. It's good to see you back. I'm sorry you slipped but I'm glad you caught yourself again. That "flatness" you feel is normal. I felt that way, too. Occasionally I feel it now. But it passes, and life is good. Scratch that, life is great!
I deal with sobriety by trying to mindful. The moment we're in right now is unique- it will never come again. The bad times will pass. So will the good times. I try to be in the moment, accepting it for what it is. When I'm bored I remind myself I could be in pain, or drunk...or dead. Even being bored is such a luxury that I can't adequately describe it.
Maybe you need to find a hobby? Or resuscitate one you lost to the booze years ago.
Anyways, it's great to see you post again.
I deal with sobriety by trying to mindful. The moment we're in right now is unique- it will never come again. The bad times will pass. So will the good times. I try to be in the moment, accepting it for what it is. When I'm bored I remind myself I could be in pain, or drunk...or dead. Even being bored is such a luxury that I can't adequately describe it.
Maybe you need to find a hobby? Or resuscitate one you lost to the booze years ago.
Anyways, it's great to see you post again.
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