Male stereotypes
Adventures In SpaceTime
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Male stereotypes
Yesterday I posted to a new thread in this forum. My post was judged to be a personal slam, and was rightly deleted. No problem. With hindsight, I can understand how my attitude needed to be moderated. Sometimes I just want to play out-of-the-box when I see stereotypical standards being played out as "normal" and acceptable behaviors.
Let me try this again.
Guys who prefer to position themselves with the "I'm a man, so that means..." explaination, I like to shake them up. This for sure comes from my own past behaviors and experiences with my own father and myself and the way he taught me to value women. He did me wrong. All he taught me to be when it comes to women was to be a common stereotypical jerk. Epic fail.
I've come out of an abusive/abused background, and as those who know, those scars just don't heal up all nice and pretty. Some scars last a lifetime.
Anyways, my dad always used his being a man as an excuse to get away with whatever and with whoever. He had and still has, in his mind, zero responsibility. Its just the way it is, and thats the end of the story for him.
I gotta admit, when I was growing up, I didn't know what he was teaching me, and I took it in hook, line, and sinker. As I became a young man, I began to see just how backward I was with girls/women.
Drinking just seem to make it even more impossible to see how I was wronging my dates and girlfriends. I justified my behaviors to suit my own selfish wants. Excuses aplenty when claiming "Hey, I'm a man, and so, guess what? Its not my fault..."
Sounds simplistic, I suppose, but some guys really believe they have a free ticket. I was one of those guys. Lousy way to live. I'm a different man since getting sober.
Okay. So I've got this out there. I feel better. No big deal I guess. Just wanted folks to know their was a reason, although really an excuse, for slamming in the other thread.
Sorry.
I hope this thread can turn into a good discussion, and if not, thats okay too.
Rob
Let me try this again.
Guys who prefer to position themselves with the "I'm a man, so that means..." explaination, I like to shake them up. This for sure comes from my own past behaviors and experiences with my own father and myself and the way he taught me to value women. He did me wrong. All he taught me to be when it comes to women was to be a common stereotypical jerk. Epic fail.
I've come out of an abusive/abused background, and as those who know, those scars just don't heal up all nice and pretty. Some scars last a lifetime.
Anyways, my dad always used his being a man as an excuse to get away with whatever and with whoever. He had and still has, in his mind, zero responsibility. Its just the way it is, and thats the end of the story for him.
I gotta admit, when I was growing up, I didn't know what he was teaching me, and I took it in hook, line, and sinker. As I became a young man, I began to see just how backward I was with girls/women.
Drinking just seem to make it even more impossible to see how I was wronging my dates and girlfriends. I justified my behaviors to suit my own selfish wants. Excuses aplenty when claiming "Hey, I'm a man, and so, guess what? Its not my fault..."
Sounds simplistic, I suppose, but some guys really believe they have a free ticket. I was one of those guys. Lousy way to live. I'm a different man since getting sober.
Okay. So I've got this out there. I feel better. No big deal I guess. Just wanted folks to know their was a reason, although really an excuse, for slamming in the other thread.
Sorry.
I hope this thread can turn into a good discussion, and if not, thats okay too.
Rob
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
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good stuff,robby and i can relate in a way.
i have quite a bit of irish in me and went with the " irish people drink and are ornary" for many, many years. found out in recovery it didnt have anything to do with being irish!
i have quite a bit of irish in me and went with the " irish people drink and are ornary" for many, many years. found out in recovery it didnt have anything to do with being irish!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sussex, England
Posts: 945
My husband uses that excuse "Hey, I'm a man, I'm untrainable" for example... when he takes his dirty plate... walks straight past the dishwasher, and throws it in the sink. Ggnnnaaahhh!!!! There are plenty other examples, but I'll spare you 
BTW Robby, I'm liking your new avatar... Have you had an upgrade? Or are you not really a Robot?
BTW Robby, I'm liking your new avatar... Have you had an upgrade? Or are you not really a Robot?
Sober since October
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: In the world in my eyes...Somewhere I've never been before...
Posts: 7,355
Good post, Robby.
I agree, some men excuse their drinking saying: "I am a man, so it is for me to decide to drink or not to drink (almost Hamlet's to be or not to be), and it is not for you, woman, to tell me what to do".
I agree, some men excuse their drinking saying: "I am a man, so it is for me to decide to drink or not to drink (almost Hamlet's to be or not to be), and it is not for you, woman, to tell me what to do".
Not Alone
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South East UK
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I think I may be on the other end of the spectrum. It's more like 'Oh I'm sorry, I'm a man, it's most likely my fault'. But the truth is the majority of my dates and past relationships have been sick, and I mean like mental health and other issues type sick rather than delhi belly.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
I'll share my being a Robot is a place of safety for me. I had to withdraw so friggin much growing up just to keep my sense of self alive. I'm a sci-fi nut, and so robotics and androids fascinate me no end.
Even in sobriety, it took real effort to come out of my darkened corner and start breathing the same air as anyone else. I was very messed up. Trust issues being the most challenge for me. I believe in trust, and always did, but trust and loyalty walk together for me, and so I can get into trouble with misplaced trust rather quickly.
Being a Man who wants to be a Robot, and a Robot who wants to be a Man just has so much to offer me since childhood, and has always been my go-to place when I need to resolve whatever.
It made good sense to have RobbyRobot has my nick here on SR.
I guess my new avatar is breaking some chains for me, lol.
You guys are great!
Even in sobriety, it took real effort to come out of my darkened corner and start breathing the same air as anyone else. I was very messed up. Trust issues being the most challenge for me. I believe in trust, and always did, but trust and loyalty walk together for me, and so I can get into trouble with misplaced trust rather quickly.
Being a Man who wants to be a Robot, and a Robot who wants to be a Man just has so much to offer me since childhood, and has always been my go-to place when I need to resolve whatever.
It made good sense to have RobbyRobot has my nick here on SR.
I guess my new avatar is breaking some chains for me, lol.
You guys are great!
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Natom 
I think I may be on the other end of the spectrum. It's more like 'Oh I'm sorry, I'm a man, it's most likely my fault'. But the truth is the majority of my dates and past relationships have been sick, and I mean like mental health and other issues type sick rather than delhi belly.
Stereotypes have no place in real life.
A simple guy making his way
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 7,867
Hey Robby! Yes the avatar is an upgrade.
Thanks for sharing about this and a little about your back ground. You have long been a mystery to me but your input is always interesting and thought out.
The male roles in my life were never there as a kid. Just a highly physically and emotionally abusive step father. The real father was a gambler and drunk as well. So nothing to draw on for me. They also never had the mentality you describe.
I am a self made man with regard to my masculine identity. I being gay adds an element to my view of men that cannot adequate be expressed here. Mostly because I cannot articulate it right now.
I was never a person of excuses. I stood by my life's lot as it is what it is. Now what can I do with it is my attitude. Never have I said because of this or that, including being male, do I gain or lose against anything other than my own efforts.
Good topic. I happen to really enjoy being a guy and all that comes with it, Real or perceived.
Ken
Thanks for sharing about this and a little about your back ground. You have long been a mystery to me but your input is always interesting and thought out.
The male roles in my life were never there as a kid. Just a highly physically and emotionally abusive step father. The real father was a gambler and drunk as well. So nothing to draw on for me. They also never had the mentality you describe.
I am a self made man with regard to my masculine identity. I being gay adds an element to my view of men that cannot adequate be expressed here. Mostly because I cannot articulate it right now.
I was never a person of excuses. I stood by my life's lot as it is what it is. Now what can I do with it is my attitude. Never have I said because of this or that, including being male, do I gain or lose against anything other than my own efforts.
Good topic. I happen to really enjoy being a guy and all that comes with it, Real or perceived.
Ken
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posts: 384
I think excuses or justifications have no gender boundaries but perhaps differences on which ones are used perhaps more often by some people of one gender than the other.
From what I have heard and seen most alcoholics and addicts tend to have some sort of scheme of these as a form of denial till things kind of close in and/or crash but that's my opinion. They look pretty silly and/or insane once you look at them in a sober state of mind.
For myself I see a blend of traits from both genders but its really just me and since I cam from a man and a woman seem logical I would have both. My excuses and justifications were my own whether anyone else used them or not. My work now is to not let them trick me again.
From what I have heard and seen most alcoholics and addicts tend to have some sort of scheme of these as a form of denial till things kind of close in and/or crash but that's my opinion. They look pretty silly and/or insane once you look at them in a sober state of mind.
For myself I see a blend of traits from both genders but its really just me and since I cam from a man and a woman seem logical I would have both. My excuses and justifications were my own whether anyone else used them or not. My work now is to not let them trick me again.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,635
I am working out of this 12 step book that has me exploring where I got some of my ways of dealing (or not) with things as far as how I was parented. The exercise is having me look at things, understand them and free myself from resentments or hard feelings against my family.
I don't think stereotypes are all that gender based. Some of the corny ones are though, I guess.
I don't think stereotypes are all that gender based. Some of the corny ones are though, I guess.
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Robby,
My dad left us never to be heard from again when I was six. I was raised in challenging conditions in that we never had much of anything but welfare on a regular basis, which my mom hated. I was "gifted." I was the opposite of abused and my father figure was my Gramps, who came to the US in 1921 buying a brownstone in NYC for his start here. He was a gentle soul who taught me much especially when I lived with him and Grams from age 12 to emancipation at 16.
I was determined to never be divorced and be like my Gramps in providing for my family and being strong enough to not need his fist. I later heard it described in a song (by Dan Fogelberg I think) as having an iron fist in a velvet glove. Inner strength that manifests in kindness and love from inner security and wisdom, which he had in spades.
I married and had two boys and saw that most bad things are passed along from parents to children who then do the same things. My wife had some of those issues because her parents stayed together, my ideal, until I found later what the father who is just like you describe yours as being Robby. I realized that I was indeed lucky in that I had to create my own image of what a man and father should be. So I did and raised two good boys who became productive men doing quite well, both married to wonderful girls.
I think the key is what you describe. Being shown man as dog and/or being physically beaten slapped whatever as well as verbally assaulted has been cited a lot by many that learned nothing else and are lost.
Like becoming an alcoholic later in life than many, life hands us endless curve balls and we can either step into one and belt it out of the park, or cry about never getting a good pitch.
I am the oldest of five boys. I have one who blames our mom for his failure in life, at 50? And two others that blame their dad not mine as my Mom was married three times. He was abusive and is the reason I moved in with my grandparents along with the other two boys not his. Only me and my immediate brother, who passed away suddenly from a massive heart attack a month after I quit drinking, seemed to make it in life pretty successfully.
So I put a lot of credence in what you say about stereotypes and exposure and role models. Even within the same family when the male role model changes the results are pretty sad to see.
I had the military as a career and a VA college fund I used to become the first and only one in my family to have a few sheepskins on the wall. I didn't start those until age 30 at night. Industrial Engineering, Psych, and Sosh degrees, because I was raising kids and needed the developmental and child psych concepts. Came in handy for me too.
It is amazing what people carry over from their childhood and never question. I haven't figured out why some like me can be free by conscious decision, and others never see any need or never look at themselves and ask what they want and go get that thing.
All of them are gone now, and I am the oldest family member left. I had to, did, and continue to support my 40 year marriage and two boys and the beautiful, literally, daughters they brought into out lives.
I am rich, but not in material things, although I did fine there. It started with a determination to not be like my Dad, and abandon. Then consciously creating my role from the best I had as mentors, reading, and folding all that into the honor and integrity concepts of the best of military professional sponsors who I also learned from. Still do.
I am glad you got out of your rut Robby, and enjoy most of your posts. Maybe the iron fist in the velvet glove is a useful concept?
Sorry to ramble. I too like your new you avatar. The other was a great SciFi graphic, this is human.
My dad left us never to be heard from again when I was six. I was raised in challenging conditions in that we never had much of anything but welfare on a regular basis, which my mom hated. I was "gifted." I was the opposite of abused and my father figure was my Gramps, who came to the US in 1921 buying a brownstone in NYC for his start here. He was a gentle soul who taught me much especially when I lived with him and Grams from age 12 to emancipation at 16.
I was determined to never be divorced and be like my Gramps in providing for my family and being strong enough to not need his fist. I later heard it described in a song (by Dan Fogelberg I think) as having an iron fist in a velvet glove. Inner strength that manifests in kindness and love from inner security and wisdom, which he had in spades.
I married and had two boys and saw that most bad things are passed along from parents to children who then do the same things. My wife had some of those issues because her parents stayed together, my ideal, until I found later what the father who is just like you describe yours as being Robby. I realized that I was indeed lucky in that I had to create my own image of what a man and father should be. So I did and raised two good boys who became productive men doing quite well, both married to wonderful girls.
I think the key is what you describe. Being shown man as dog and/or being physically beaten slapped whatever as well as verbally assaulted has been cited a lot by many that learned nothing else and are lost.
Like becoming an alcoholic later in life than many, life hands us endless curve balls and we can either step into one and belt it out of the park, or cry about never getting a good pitch.
I am the oldest of five boys. I have one who blames our mom for his failure in life, at 50? And two others that blame their dad not mine as my Mom was married three times. He was abusive and is the reason I moved in with my grandparents along with the other two boys not his. Only me and my immediate brother, who passed away suddenly from a massive heart attack a month after I quit drinking, seemed to make it in life pretty successfully.
So I put a lot of credence in what you say about stereotypes and exposure and role models. Even within the same family when the male role model changes the results are pretty sad to see.
I had the military as a career and a VA college fund I used to become the first and only one in my family to have a few sheepskins on the wall. I didn't start those until age 30 at night. Industrial Engineering, Psych, and Sosh degrees, because I was raising kids and needed the developmental and child psych concepts. Came in handy for me too.
It is amazing what people carry over from their childhood and never question. I haven't figured out why some like me can be free by conscious decision, and others never see any need or never look at themselves and ask what they want and go get that thing.
All of them are gone now, and I am the oldest family member left. I had to, did, and continue to support my 40 year marriage and two boys and the beautiful, literally, daughters they brought into out lives.
I am rich, but not in material things, although I did fine there. It started with a determination to not be like my Dad, and abandon. Then consciously creating my role from the best I had as mentors, reading, and folding all that into the honor and integrity concepts of the best of military professional sponsors who I also learned from. Still do.
I am glad you got out of your rut Robby, and enjoy most of your posts. Maybe the iron fist in the velvet glove is a useful concept?
Sorry to ramble. I too like your new you avatar. The other was a great SciFi graphic, this is human.
instant
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,711
Hey Robbie- you have helped so many people here. Your wisdom and compassion shine through- didn't read the thread in question, but heck, who's perfect.
Your post shows a good bit of, capacity to reflect and self awareness as usual
Keep up the good work- glad you are no longer a metal man (avatar) but you always lent a hand !!
Your post shows a good bit of, capacity to reflect and self awareness as usual
Keep up the good work- glad you are no longer a metal man (avatar) but you always lent a hand !!
Adventures In SpaceTime
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Really awesome shares, guys. So good to know we've all come from some place we can relate from even if we have different takes. Its a small world after all.
I'm gonna respond in a bit. Thanks so much for all the heartfelt shares.
I'm gonna respond in a bit. Thanks so much for all the heartfelt shares.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: SaraLand, Al
Posts: 8
Rob, I had similar issues with my father, particularly regarding alcohol. I lost him a year and a half ago to cancer... but we repaired and healed each other in particular ways that ony the father and son can before he passed.
Prior to his getting sick however, I learned a more critical lesson from him as HIS child...those impulses he acted on coursed through my veins as well, and I DID NOT LIKE THEM. When I felt them comming on, I diverted them (dif ways).
The key being, Had I not Known him in those impressionable times, I MOST CERTAINLY would have become him.
You are a man. It takes a man to be able to know when he's... not : )
Prior to his getting sick however, I learned a more critical lesson from him as HIS child...those impulses he acted on coursed through my veins as well, and I DID NOT LIKE THEM. When I felt them comming on, I diverted them (dif ways).
The key being, Had I not Known him in those impressionable times, I MOST CERTAINLY would have become him.
You are a man. It takes a man to be able to know when he's... not : )
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Interesting my father was much the same...although he actually carries a load of guilt around with him about it. Since getting sober i have had a chat with him about it and made it plain that i have forgiven him and he doesn't need the guilt anymore but i don't think he's going to give it up lightly. I never thought any of that would happen ever and he has only really changed in the last few years...the 8 years not speaking or seeing each other did some good before i got sober too.
It's easy to have a pop at the guy but somewhat overlooked is the role of the man's enabler, i.e. his partner/wife...as any good alcoholic knows we needed our enablers and once they all went or were cast aside, for this alcoholic, it was time to look elsewhere which was AA for me:-)
My Mum said she stayed with Dad for the sake of myself and my brother...yeah that worked out f***ing great lol
It's easy to have a pop at the guy but somewhat overlooked is the role of the man's enabler, i.e. his partner/wife...as any good alcoholic knows we needed our enablers and once they all went or were cast aside, for this alcoholic, it was time to look elsewhere which was AA for me:-)
My Mum said she stayed with Dad for the sake of myself and my brother...yeah that worked out f***ing great lol
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