Dee74

Welcome back Andisa

I'm sorry you're struggling but I'm glad you've come back - there's a ton of advice and support here...always

D

Lotrus

Trying to quiet your mind hardly ever works. If you ask someone not to think of something than that's exactly what that person will think of.
What I do is just observe what's going on in my mind, or just observe my breathing. I just watch, and if my mind goes quiet then that's fine. If it doesn't then that's fine too.

sorry if this is getting offtopic

andisa

Thanks to all for being here. It's been a rough, though gratifying, past 24 hours since I was here yesterday. I pondered the question posed, "If you didn't get loaded, what would you have to feel?" It wasn't at all comfortable, and yet, I couldn't stop thinking about it. I didn't want to stop thinking about it. It seems this question, or the chosen avoidance of addressing the question, is exactly the reason my mind reverts to the escape drugs provide. I can not tolerate being controlled, and yet, I've given up so much to the control I allow others to have over me. What's so strange about this is that they only have as much control as I allow them to have! Why do I allow it, that I do not understand. There's this thinking planted deep inside my brain that I am "supposed" to be compliant, complacent, wholly agreeable to the expectations of other (raised in a strict, conservative, very patriarchal Christian household.) While at the same time, taught and in fact encouraged to think for myself, be independent and strong and determined. Oh the internal battles that ensued! And still do to this day. I cannot stand up for myself when it comes to the expectations others have on me, even while I know they are wrong or otherwise in conflict with what I want or know to be important to me and right for me. Hence, the lack of perceived control, and the drive behind seeking escape through drugs.

All that said (I do so appreciate having this place to sound this out!), the suggestion of meditation--not at all off-topic--would likely offer at least a respite from the storm, if not a place of internal peace. Honestly I've not given the practice thereof the time it's due, largely because I prefer a busy mind, I suppose. It seems safer that way. Probably some twisted form of avoidance there, too.

That gets right to the heart of using. Control, or a sense of control. Ironic too, that the psychedelics I'm so drawn to leave one in a state of confusion, but that is distraction at its finest. There's nothing that can touch me there.

All that has been offered to my concerns leads me to two words, avoidance and control. I'm not sure what to do about them though, at least, not without a lot of work, and possible (likely) disruption in my life. Of course I lean towards continued avoidance but look where that has landed me. I'm in the same place I was when I was still using, just not currently using. That is not recovery.

GrowingDaily, I hear you about smoking. I've been an on-again off-again smoker of the cigarette for 25 years, sometimes going over a decade between smokes, and then, back into a full-time habit for a year or two before quitting again. I've always thought myself a casual smoker, but really I'm an addict, just either using, or avoiding using. I like smoking, no denying. Probably should give that up, again, because it is just a poor substitute for pot, and not nearly as rewarding as that was for me. It's that addictive behavior again. And it's expensive. And it's just one more thing I feel a need to hide. I've spent my life in hiding and am so tired of living that way.

Again thank you for listening. SoberandGodless, happy travels to you today. I appreciate your support and friendship tremendously.

GrowingDaily

You do whatever you can manage & not a bit more, Andisa. The only reason I used tobacco as an example is because it is the one substance I've been able to nix from my life for good (and I know that in my heart 100%), and because I'm actually aware of the mental process necessary to secure that confidence. And because I believe I can extend that process to any other chemical if I try hard enough.

Regardless of substance, I think it's crucial to reevaluate your attitudes in regards to what you 'like' & what you don't. I used to say I liked smoking & chewing. Like? Hell... loved. But did I? Exactly what did I love about it? What I found when I did some serious introspection is that there wasn't anything pleasurable about it. The best I ever felt was somewhere just south of normal, and that was when I was taking a puff. From the first second past that, until the next puff, my mood declined. At no time - ever - did I feel as good as I do without nicotine. Bottom line: I mistook pleasure for a (very) temporary relief of constant pain. And I don't think I'm unique here.

As I continue my journey quitting alcohol, I see there isn't any significant difference between the two. The pleasure is likewise an illusion - just a brief respite from the pain which is directly caused by the alcohol!

I don't think it would be possible for me to quit anything if I remained under the belief it was enjoyable. I had to see things for what they really were. Until I did, I was just like you. I quit cold turkey numerous times. Willpower isn't our problem... our perception of the drugs that harm us is.

andisa

Very interesting perspective, GrowingDaily, about the pleasure derived from drug use as an illusion, a respite from the pain of the addition itself. Truly, the addition itself IS a source of pain for me which I know I seek to escape. I don't want to want to use and I hide it, from myself and others, at all costs. All costs being, yes again, avoidance and hiding. I avoid dealing with it, and hiding only complicates matters. There is no-one I can, or want to, talk about my ongoing interest in drug use, and certainly I tell no-one about my cigarette use (I'm in a position I spend a lot of time alone in my work.) I went through treatment once and after all that turmoil, I'm supposed to be recovered. No-one knew the extent of my addition, other than those at the treatment facility. Certainly no-one suspects I've been entertaining using all these years since, and in fact, have used. I did tell someone about one joint, one time. All hell broke loose, I paid for my confession/transgression through an imposed guilt-trip. Don't want to go there again.

Likely, this what trips me up severely. That perceived level of enjoyment I derive from using, or thinking about the effects of using. It's distorted. I don't know that it is the source of my problem, but it's certainly a negative factor in it. No doubt it isn't helping a single thing. Seeing things for what they really are. Key is to WANT to see things for what they really are. In practicing avoidance, reality is in direct conflict!

I don't know where or how to begin changing this ingrained habit of avoidance. Damn, I'm stronger than this, and even while knowing that, I recoil in fear of doing anything about it. Repercussions of standing up for myself lead to so much conflict and disruption, which, you know, I'd prefer to avoid. Ugh. I've been struggling with this for so long.

GrowingDaily

I think it's important to focus on the exact mechanisms of addiction. Armed with this knowledge, it's easier to understand why our attitudes towards harmful substances is skewed, and why it's difficult at times to even find a reason for quitting, even as we deteriorate daily from use.

We all know, at a rational, thinking level, of the harmful effects of the drugs we abuse. With nicotine in particular, we know, if we're honest with ourselves, that it really gives us absolutely nothing. There's really no rational reason to smoke.

But your mind doesn't work on rationality. Just like any other animal, we're hardwired to associate the items necessary to our survival (food, sex, etc) with pleasure. We are and are supposed to be pleasure-seeking organisms. It's how we work.

Unfortunately, your body doesn't have the ability to distinguish between harmful substances & beneficial substances when the chemicals involved are able to dock with the receptors in your brain responsible for triggering pleasure. That's in essence what all physically addictive substances do... most are very similiar in structure to naturally-produced chemicals that are part of the brain's reward pathway, and are therefore able to dock with receptors meant for those substances and, in effect, trick the mind into giving you the reward you didn't earn by releasing the feel-good chemicals that ultimately are responsible for happiness. So when you say you 'like' smoking - at the most basic level - you're absolutely right. You like smoking in the same way as you like sex or like eating... chemically.

We're also creatures of incredible learning potential. Unfortunately, much of what we learn is done at a level far below consciousness. So each & every time we artificially stimulate the pleasure centers of our brain w/ copycat chemicals, we essentially teach ourselves at the most basic level possible that we're benefiting our body. Each time we take a puff (or a drink, or a pill, or whatever) we're 'training' ourselves to use that drug whenever we need a 'happiness fix'. Every time we use we reinforce the notion. We may know - in our frontal cortex - that the drug doesn't bring any real happiness. But the rest of the brain thinks it's as important as food or sex.

That's a powerful force to deal with, and IMO, the reason people like us go back to such chemicals even after the actual physical withdrawal symptoms are long gone. The 'training' remains, which means that anytime in the future when you need to feel good, you're likely to reach out once again to what you've learned to be 'good' for you with little thought.

So what worked for me, at least in regards to nicotine, was to counter that training with my own lessons. That means putting alot of time into focused thought on the detriments of the chemical in question. I didn't just say to myself "cigarettes are poison" and end it there. I spent time each & every day researching the dangers of nicotine, reading up on its use as a pesticide, viewing pictures of cancer patients, etc, etc. Every day, multiple times per day, I purposefully created negative emotional responses to the drug. It's not that I was educating myself... I already knew everything I was researching. The repetition & continual reinforcement was the key. I literally taught myself to hate nicotine - at the most basic level.

At the moment, that's the process I'm using for alcohol. I dwell - and I mean dwell - on the fact that it almost took me from the woman I love. I force myself to look in the mirror & see the effect it's had on my body. Rather than not think about it - I try my best to think about it as much as possible.. in the very bad light it deserves. Every day, numerous times a day, I take the time to hate it. I don't just allow myself to get angry, I force myself to feel that emotion. Rational thought doesn't cut it. You need to feel emotion. In effect, I created my own emotionally traumatic event with my own thoughts.

It really worked for me. I've been a smoker/dipper from age 12, quit countless times, started back countless times. The only thing that broke the illusion that it was something I liked was the process I described. It's been almost 5 years now, and I can say with 100% honesty that the thought of taking a drag or a dip disgusts me. To my core. That's the first time I could ever say that. And it's a product of my own personal reeducation camp

I know this is long as hell - sorry - but I'm not skilled at brevity. I hope my experience can help someone.

Sapling

The way I look at it andisa...And I'm talking about alcohol here...Don't know if it applies to what drugs you are using...I loved drinking...Solved all my problems and made me...me....But there's this invisable line that once you cross it...There's no going back...There's no fun anymore....It's a need and not a want...I could never get that feeling I used to get no matter how hard I tried or how much I drank...It was painful and it tore me down....The more people confronted me with it...The more I isolated...I was never one big on isolation....It's a very dark place to be....But nobody bothered me there...Than you start losing your mind...That scared the hell out me....I think dying was a better option for me than living out life completely insane...I just couldn't deal with it anymore and sought out help....Something I should have done 20 years before...But at least I did it. And I'm alive to talk about it.

soberandgodless

Andisa, I've been on planes most of the day, but I'm settled in now for a few hours at least. Just wanted to check in.

Learning to live without running away, honestly and with courage. Not an easy thing to do, but well worth it. Don't hurry. There's no rush. First you figure out where you are. Then you decide where you're going. Then you set out getting there.

And that's a journey that never ends. So again, no hurry.

Good to see you here again.

andisa

Again, I much appreciate the depth of input and caring here. As one who has thought through and rationalized every side of use and addition to the extreme, and yet still wrestle with an undying interest and sometimes strong desire to use, superficialities have no impact. This thing has a deep-rooted stronghold on my brain and extracting it, or at least exposing it to light, I suspect will require dedicated effort.

GrowingDaily, it appears you have a similar interest in how drugs affect the brain as I do, so I appreciate learning of the technique you used to re-teach yourself how to think about your use. I mean, it's absolutely fascinating how it all works. What so troubles me about my continued desire to use is that rationally I know the negative effects and know there is no rational reason, beyond the affects on the pleasure centers of the brain, to use. Clearly my interest is wholly a matter of emotional disconnect, the stuff that goes on below a conscious level. I suspect no level of rational negative reinforcement will discourage that desire. It may serve to keep me away from using, however, and that is definitely a positive effect. In the past I've been so disgusted with smokers and by smoking I've quit, for long periods, and then in a moment of wanting, I pick it up again, and wow how quickly I'm back in it again! Then have to relearn all I apparently forgot about how disgusting it is. In the immediate, I first stop, then fill in the forgotten information to make the decision stick.

It's so true what you say, "rational thought doesn't cut it." It's the emotional level that needs to be addressed, and that's what I prefer to avoid. I don't like to even think about the turmoil that will result. Rationalizing is a far more comfortable practice for me. I've thought myself into a corner.

Sapling, I know of that dark and isolated place of which you write. Used to be, I liked it there, preferred it there, because there I could not be bothered by the expectations and demands of others. Overtly I would comply with whatever they wanted but my entire focus was on the evening high and far more so, the next weekend trip. Your story is much like mine, where I decided that was no way to live, I like people, in fact I love people, and appreciated my rational mind so much the fear of losing it prompted a change in direction. Honestly, I do not know where I would be now were it not for my son, born 2 1/2 years ago. I adore him and want to be there for him, so much. I have aspirations, some of which I engage and pursue, some of which I've allowed to slip by the wayside because they are discouraged by those around me. That is my biggest regret, that I allow others to affect me to my own detriment. That I've lost friends as a result. That I've allowed others to interfere to the point I cower in such fear I cannot write. That I'm here writing now is a HUGE step for me, I cannot explain how that is, but it really and truly is. To go from hitting my head, hard, against the nearest solid object (a desperate, pathetic time) two years ago, in some sick attempt to dull the pain (no drugs to do it for me), to being here now...it seems a small step but it is a positive step, I think...though admittedly I'm still scared.

Brevity is not my strength, thanks for listening.

SoberandGodless, I'm so glad you're here. Your words, that there is no hurry, do not rush this, provide so much calm and some sense of assuredness that all is well, or at least, just as it should be at the moment. It is what it is, and that's OK, there's time for improvement. Figuring out where I am may be the step I've been missing, so much in a hurry to get there. I think I bypassed recognizing my starting point, which may explain why I keep getting lost. There is no map!

soberandgodless

Andisa,

You really hit it there when you wrote--there is no map. That could be part of the trouble. We all need a map. And even with a map and a compass you can't get to a desired spot on that map without that all import X. The one that tells you:


You have to know where you are to know what direction to go. And it sounds like you're aware of that today. That's great.

andisa

Sure wish I had a map, with directions provided.
I'm looking at the X today, even while trying to avoid it. This is most unpleasant; it reminds me of the early days of quitting. I think that's where I lost my place.

All day I've been more unsettled than I have been in years, for the seeing what I need to do. Realizing the terrible extent to which I've allowed myself to live in fear, which has largely kept me from using, but for the wrong reasons. Fear only has so much power to control. It's a mighty force but not enduring, at least, it should not be a prevailing reason behind one's thoughts and actions.

I am here. I don't like this position I've allowed myself to be in. I don't know where I'll get the strength to change what I need to change. The thought of enduring upset in my home is incapacitating. The changes I need to make will cause upset and that is so...I cannot describe. I'm exhausted of the battle. Honesty about who I am and what I want causes much controversy in my house. How wrong is that. It's my home!

I am here though. At the moment that has to be OK. It's being suggested to me that it is enough, to start. I'm relying on that to continue. Gratefully....

Dee74

Maybe the second best thing to a map is a lot of guides who've been where you want to be, andisa?

I found it best to take things a day at a time...I was very practiced at running off miles down the proverbial road, my head full of what ifs and panic rising...

You're not alone in this - you have support and you have people with you on the journey - you already know whats behind you....keep moving forward - what have you really got to lose?

it will be ok
D

andisa

I’m taking this all in, truly astounded by the extent of what I have here been given in recent days. Your caring and thought-full words provide calm, reassurance, motivation, focus, and a general sense of direction. I breathe deep and think about it. Sometimes giving way to panic, but finding a foothold again soon enough.

Through this, it has become evident how important external input, that is, interaction outside one’s own head is. I always knew this, but suppress it for a host of not-so-good reasons. Fear-based and avoidant. That is no way to live.

The suggestion of surrounding oneself with others who have been there seems critical right now, because knowing how I am, I will so quickly retreat to a "safer" place (avoiding taking action, or what concerns me so much now, full retreat in using again.) Even as I write that, while considering "what have you got to lose?" I sense hesitancy to act, for what I have to lose is this sense of peace, artificial and temporary though it is. I detest controversy, most especially, when it comes to matters of me. I don't want to argue about who or how I am anymore. I don't want to be told I cannot talk with friends anymore. I don't want to be told I cannot seek help anymore. I cannot write here anymore. I cannot attend meetings. I've been told ALL of those things. And if I do, there are consequences, isolating and belittling. Disruptive to daily life, so much it's hard to do anything else but worry about that nonsense. It prompts a desire to escape.

The main thing I have to lose in seeking help in finding direction is that fear of control by others and fear of retreat through drugs. Seems a worthy risk to take, to regain and hold on to what is rightly mine.

It's important to me to keep on with this writing, even if it may just be a simple start. I'm hopeful you can keep listening. I plan to stop with the cigarettes on Monday.

Sapling

We're not going anywhere andisa...Ciggs are next for me...Alcohol was enough on my plate to start with...I'll get there. Good luck to you. You sound like you are doing great!

andisa

Ab-so-lute-ly no doubt quitting or changing any negative behaviors and thoughts and actions is a positive move. Best to you in your next move, Sapling! I'd quit the smoking today but figure two days of mental preparation and nicotine reduction in the bloodstream is probably wise.

The encouragement I find here is more profound than I can say. I appreciate hearing it seems like I'm doing well, for to be honest, I feel like a timid, weak little girl, for the things I'm dealing with, or rather, my lack of ability to deal with them in a mature manner. Still growing. It's good to know I'm not alone.

soberandgodless

We're none of us very good at predicting the future, Andisa. It's seldom as bad or as good as we imagine. When tomorrow comes, it will be today. And you'll do what we can always do in today, which is to keep your eyes open and do the next kind thing. Kind to you and those around you.

That isn't always easy. And that's why we try to do it holding hands.

NYCDoglvr

I've been sober over 20 years and have had your experience. Hey, I'm an alcoholic with a daily reprieve but I can certainly pick up a drink. What I did was run to a meeting and share about wanting to drink, going to a meeting every day until the craving stopped.

It stopped for me and it can stop for you if you take some action.

andisa

You know, I'm kind of relying on the people here, maybe leaning on you is more accurate, for a bit of support. I think that's OK? I've re-read this thread at least a dozen times through and find it so reassuring, motivating.

I like kind. I like to be aware, conscientious of those around me, and offer what I can. I find others here who care, too, and I'm grateful.

Today is a good day, there's a sense of hope in the air. Maybe it's the mild weather of spring talking. A flock of Sandhill cranes just walked the 80 acre field across the road, then took flight. I'm planting gardens (despite however crazy that might be in March.) On Monday I will quit smoking. On Tuesday I'll attend a meeting, see what I might find there. I've tried a couple different groups but they've not worked out, for different reasons. The busy work season has begun and, for better or worse, it's a marvelous diversion and also, a major influence to stay straight, I love my work so much.

There is every reason to believe I can do what I'm setting out to do here. Today it seems so possible. I know, basically, where I am, and perhaps now can set foot in the direction I think I need to go. At least, I think I'm back on the map. I appreciate your help in keeping me grounded.

andisa

A question about so-called "clean time." I've been told (angrily in fact) that I cannot count my 5 years as clean time, because I've used in that time. Each time wasn't lasting, it came, I used, I didn't use again for months, or years. In my estimation, I quit five years ago, and it's a day important to me, so I regard it as such, and when that day comes around each year I'm happy for the fact I'm at least not regularly using. So I think, others' opinions are what they are, I keep my opinion to myself. But am I lying when I express at those "clean time" meeting moments (which I don't think should be part of any meeting!) that I have five years? I'd rather not address the subject at all, but it comes up.

artsoul

Hi andisa! I'm enjoying your posts - they remind me of me!

Have you ever read The Power of Now? I've always been a thinker (so many questions, so many variables and possibilities, so much to consider!). It can be both a blessing and a curse...... a curse, because we can't always find the answers or prepare/protect ourselves from the future and our thinking ends up increasing our fear.

Alcohol and drugs gave me an "excuse" to let my mind go, to live in the moment (even if it meant killing brain cells to do it!). Now I'm trying to do that in sobriety, where I give myself permission to "be" and stop judging myself or trying to anticipate life all the time. Meditation is helpful but it does take a lot of practice. I found that I got more immediate benefits from reading about the practice of "mindfulness."

These are just ideas and may or may not resonate with you. I've just found that tuning into the moment (like you did when you were watching the cranes or maybe gardening) often quiets my mind and that's when I'm open to receiving that kind of subtle joy that life's all about.

Keep going - it's SO worth it!