Made a bad move.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 609
It's so important I'll repeat. The real deal alkies and addicts don't recover by going to meetings. They recover by some kind of spiritual experience.
Grouch and Brainstorm
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 238
A common theme on this thread: why make bad decisions if you know they are bad?
I asked myself the same question. Thought I was weak. People told me I was weak, not serious, not committed, too willful.
Then I learned that I had an insane mind in manners of alcohol and drugs. Like the jaywalker in the Big Book who kept walking into traffic, I kept engaging in the wrong decisions even though I knew they were dangerous.
You aren't weak or uncommitted, Trish. You are sick. Part of that sickness is an insanity-- we simply keep making the wrong decisions. Keith called it delusional thinking-- that's an even better term. The definition of delusion perfectly captures my insanity:
I could not stop drinking. I did not stop drinking. I had a spiritual experience through the working of the 12 steps, and, as a result of that, found power over my drinking. Got "restored to sanity."
Bottom line: I'm no longer plagued by the same sick thinking process. I don't think about drinking or doing drugs, because I'm clear about what happens, and why it's bad.
It's not about trying harder, or waiting for the day when you suddenly start making the right decisions because you've reached some level of learning and experience. It's about giving up and being led through the work.
I asked myself the same question. Thought I was weak. People told me I was weak, not serious, not committed, too willful.
Then I learned that I had an insane mind in manners of alcohol and drugs. Like the jaywalker in the Big Book who kept walking into traffic, I kept engaging in the wrong decisions even though I knew they were dangerous.
You aren't weak or uncommitted, Trish. You are sick. Part of that sickness is an insanity-- we simply keep making the wrong decisions. Keith called it delusional thinking-- that's an even better term. The definition of delusion perfectly captures my insanity:
a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.
I could not stop drinking. I did not stop drinking. I had a spiritual experience through the working of the 12 steps, and, as a result of that, found power over my drinking. Got "restored to sanity."
Bottom line: I'm no longer plagued by the same sick thinking process. I don't think about drinking or doing drugs, because I'm clear about what happens, and why it's bad.
It's not about trying harder, or waiting for the day when you suddenly start making the right decisions because you've reached some level of learning and experience. It's about giving up and being led through the work.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 31,179
(((Trish))) - I have some major codie issues, and, for me, the quickest thing to make me want to use was to be wrapped up in someone else's issues or problems, trying to make it all better.
It wasn't until I started reading the F&F forums that I started working on my codie issues, and let me tell you, it was baby steps from the get-go. Every now and then, I get to analyzing "why do I feel this way" or "why do I DO this", and I realized the other day, it really doesn't matter...I've learned enough tools to get back on track.
I don't have near the history you do, but I do believe there's some serious underlying stuff I will need to eventually talk out with a therapist. For now, I concentrate on what I can do to keep my sanity and my clean time. As long as we're so wrapped up in someone else and their life, we don't have time to work on OUR life.
I really do understand. I agree with ((Littlefish)) - don't say you'll TRY to get to more meetings, just do it. You have people who are willing to help you, both here and in the meetings, you just have to believe that you really do deserve this.
It's not easy, separating our life from someone we love dearly, but it's a codie relationship. I deal with it every day. I believe, though, we HAVE to do it to succeed at recovery. Your family isn't going to keep you clean. You've gone back out, done some bad things, yet they always get over it. This has to be on YOU, sweetie.
Give it all you've got, and don't let anyone push you to the point where all you can think of is using. We are the only ones who make that choice, and you know you have a lot of people you can reach out to, before you make a bad decision.
It's just not worth it (using). If it was all that great, why would you keep trying to quit?
I believe in you, and you always have my prayers, but I'm sending extras anyway.
Love, hugs, and prayers,
Amy
It wasn't until I started reading the F&F forums that I started working on my codie issues, and let me tell you, it was baby steps from the get-go. Every now and then, I get to analyzing "why do I feel this way" or "why do I DO this", and I realized the other day, it really doesn't matter...I've learned enough tools to get back on track.
I don't have near the history you do, but I do believe there's some serious underlying stuff I will need to eventually talk out with a therapist. For now, I concentrate on what I can do to keep my sanity and my clean time. As long as we're so wrapped up in someone else and their life, we don't have time to work on OUR life.
I really do understand. I agree with ((Littlefish)) - don't say you'll TRY to get to more meetings, just do it. You have people who are willing to help you, both here and in the meetings, you just have to believe that you really do deserve this.
It's not easy, separating our life from someone we love dearly, but it's a codie relationship. I deal with it every day. I believe, though, we HAVE to do it to succeed at recovery. Your family isn't going to keep you clean. You've gone back out, done some bad things, yet they always get over it. This has to be on YOU, sweetie.
Give it all you've got, and don't let anyone push you to the point where all you can think of is using. We are the only ones who make that choice, and you know you have a lot of people you can reach out to, before you make a bad decision.
It's just not worth it (using). If it was all that great, why would you keep trying to quit?
I believe in you, and you always have my prayers, but I'm sending extras anyway.
Love, hugs, and prayers,
Amy
Grouch and Brainstorm
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by eremc08 
I don't know what you're underlying issues are so I'm not comparing yours to mine, but I've learned that the only way to get through things you've done or had done to you, is to forgive. I know.. easier said than done. Things I've done (terrible things, disgusts me to think about them) I make myself think about them, and then tell myself that I forgive myself for them and need to move on and learn from those things. Things that were done to me, I cannot play victim anymore and to forgive those who have wronged me, but not forget. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger. What doesn't kill you will make you stronger. I'm not trying to preach to you.. just offering some advice that could bring you peace with yourself.
It's about sharing that inventory with another human being and God and asking for relief from it. Then making amends for the things we've done wrong.
I just want to make sure that we're all talking about the same thing when we say "underlying issues." In AA, it's definitely not the list of people you need to forgive.
Guest
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,049
Keith, I agree with much of your post except for the requirement for getting and staying clean/sober by way of a spiritual awakening.
I didn't have a spiritual awakening, I had a kick in the a$$ which worked just fine. I just cringe at times when this is said because it can cause some to give up on a path to recovery when it does not jibe with ones belief system. If it worked for you, that is all good. Respectively offered.
I didn't have a spiritual awakening, I had a kick in the a$$ which worked just fine. I just cringe at times when this is said because it can cause some to give up on a path to recovery when it does not jibe with ones belief system. If it worked for you, that is all good. Respectively offered.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 302
Originally Posted by RobertHugh
The 12 steps of AA are about understanding just how self-centered fear drives my character defects and ultimately gets me in a cycle of resentment and anger. When we say "underlying issues", it's not so much about forgiving others (although forgiveness is important), but understanding how our wiring-- our malady-- creates such discomfort and distress for us that we harbor resentments and grudges and seek relief through drugs and alcohol.
It's about sharing that inventory with another human being and God and asking for relief from it. Then making amends for the things we've done wrong.
I just want to make sure that we're all talking about the same thing when we say "underlying issues." In AA, it's definitely not the list of people you need to forgive.
It's about sharing that inventory with another human being and God and asking for relief from it. Then making amends for the things we've done wrong.
I just want to make sure that we're all talking about the same thing when we say "underlying issues." In AA, it's definitely not the list of people you need to forgive.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Respectfully taken, gerryP.
And I failed over and over with solid kicks in the butt. Crashed cars, jails, hospitals, rehab, lost jobs, divorce, puking blood. Squandered last chances again and again.
Trish has had numerous kicks in the butt. I don't think she is one of those that, when she gets really serious, is just going to beat this thing. Implying that she can do that keeps her locked into doing exactly what she is doing.
Well, it didn't jibe with my atheistic belief system, but there it is. It worked. And like I mentioned, a spiritual solution is only necessary when that kick in the butt keeps failing. Give up on a path of recovery? You can't be serious. Maybe she can give up on a path of relapse instead, ripping out the hearts of the people she loves.
I think for Trish, she's had plenty of kicks in the butt already. I can't see the point of encouraging her to go back for more.
Sure, sweetie, just keep doing what you are doing. Just keep doing what you think is best. Because it's sure working out great for you.
Originally Posted by gerryP
I had a kick in the a$$ which worked just fine.
Trish has had numerous kicks in the butt. I don't think she is one of those that, when she gets really serious, is just going to beat this thing. Implying that she can do that keeps her locked into doing exactly what she is doing.
Originally Posted by gerryP
I just cringe at times when this is said because it can cause some to give up on a path to recovery when it does not jibe with ones belief system.
I think for Trish, she's had plenty of kicks in the butt already. I can't see the point of encouraging her to go back for more.
Sure, sweetie, just keep doing what you are doing. Just keep doing what you think is best. Because it's sure working out great for you.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
Not to split hairs and derail the discussion....oh, well, I'll do it anyway. There is an appendix in the BB which addresses that we all may not have a spiritual awakening in a dramatic moment. It points out that for many of us the spiritual awakening may occur over a period of time and is referred to as spiritual education.
That gives me a great deal of hope because I haven't had that dramatic moment. I devote time everyday to achieve a higher state of spirituality in my life.
I tend to agree with Kieth: kicks in the butt didn't seem to work for me. I was like that lady on her deathbed smoking in her oxygen tent, ready to blow up the whole hospital. I didn't learn from all the horrific consequences.
That gives me a great deal of hope because I haven't had that dramatic moment. I devote time everyday to achieve a higher state of spirituality in my life.
I tend to agree with Kieth: kicks in the butt didn't seem to work for me. I was like that lady on her deathbed smoking in her oxygen tent, ready to blow up the whole hospital. I didn't learn from all the horrific consequences.
Grouch and Brainstorm
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 238
I know this is the Newcomers to Recovery thread, so I want to be respectful to various methods of recovery. I'm sure "kicks in the ass" have proven to work over the years.
But in AA-- and there is a text book that clearly explains this-- "frothy emotional appeals seldom suffice." This tells me that I can't recover by getting kicked in the ass (or if my kids cry, my wife pleads, or my boss threatens) if I'm the hopeless alcoholic described in that text book.
I'm powerless. Not in a reduced state of power, weaker, etc. Complete absence of power over alcohol.
What I believe Keith is trying to point out is that the program of recovery in AA has little to do with self-will, self-knowledge, or outside motivation. It starts with a truth and a surrender-- the acceptance of the fact that I will continue to drink regardless of the consequences if I'm left to my own devices. And those other devices, we're told, are not ass-kicking and fellowship. It's the vital spiritual awakening that I must have.
I spent 12 years thinking that AA was what I heard in meetings. When I was introduced to the textbook, I was amazed at the gaps and contradictions between what the first 100 members wrote down and what I had been hearing as "the program" in meetings today. You certainly hear a lot more of "you just need to have your ass kicked harder" than "you have a hopeless condition and need a spiritual awakening."
I believe if we claim membership in AA, we have a responsibility to be true to the text book written by our founders.
But in AA-- and there is a text book that clearly explains this-- "frothy emotional appeals seldom suffice." This tells me that I can't recover by getting kicked in the ass (or if my kids cry, my wife pleads, or my boss threatens) if I'm the hopeless alcoholic described in that text book.
I'm powerless. Not in a reduced state of power, weaker, etc. Complete absence of power over alcohol.
What I believe Keith is trying to point out is that the program of recovery in AA has little to do with self-will, self-knowledge, or outside motivation. It starts with a truth and a surrender-- the acceptance of the fact that I will continue to drink regardless of the consequences if I'm left to my own devices. And those other devices, we're told, are not ass-kicking and fellowship. It's the vital spiritual awakening that I must have.
I spent 12 years thinking that AA was what I heard in meetings. When I was introduced to the textbook, I was amazed at the gaps and contradictions between what the first 100 members wrote down and what I had been hearing as "the program" in meetings today. You certainly hear a lot more of "you just need to have your ass kicked harder" than "you have a hopeless condition and need a spiritual awakening."
I believe if we claim membership in AA, we have a responsibility to be true to the text book written by our founders.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 5,285
I actually agree with Robert...if you are going to do AA, do it right...not half-a$$ed. Actually howevee way you choose, do it all the way or not at all...in the immortal words of Yoda (ok he's a puppet...whatever) "do or do not, there is no try".
I'm not in AA, but if I was I would like to think that I would go all in...90 meetings in 90 days, a sponsor and a lot of hard work on the steps.
Trish, you are in my thoughts and prayers I hope whatever needs to happen for you does.
I'm not in AA, but if I was I would like to think that I would go all in...90 meetings in 90 days, a sponsor and a lot of hard work on the steps.
Trish, you are in my thoughts and prayers I hope whatever needs to happen for you does.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Aysha,
We all make our own calls in life...we all have free will. I personally believe there's a universal law that says ALL my actions will carry consequences. Everything we say and do will manifest itself somehow. My personal experience and from what I've seen in everyone else in the world (alcoholic or not) we will (generally) continue to do whatever we want with no regard to the obvious consequences until they reach a point where we change, it kills us, or we die in pain. Unfortunately, not all of the "consequences" are obvious. Sometimes they're more subliminal or we're just not able to connect the dots.
You mentioned "meetings" so I feel ok in commenting on one of the things I've learned in/about AA. Whereas doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, etc usually try to help you see your problems, to change your ways, and to head off on a more suitable path..... AA almost seems to say the opposite. They tend to say go rock-n-roll all you can....drink all you want....u don't have to pray......u don't have to seek God...... you can do anything and everything you want..... AND DO IT.... and maybe it'll work. If it doesn't, then there's "this" way, this method, that lots and lots of us tried used and it absoluuuutely has worked for us.
For me, the only way I was going to give any "spiritual program of action" any chance at all was if I was completely out of other options. I'll say this in absolute confidence that I know what I'm feeling at exactly this moment - life can be better, can feel better, than I ever imagined it could. I was in the habit (and still am - perhaps to a lessor degree ....i hope) of settling for what I get in life and trying to make the best of it. That's a $hitty way to live......and I've spent the majority of my 41+ years doing just that. There's a WHOLE LOT MORE out there....but we have to go out and find it. Unfortunately, about the only time I go looking is when I'm hurting and just can't take it anymore.
I wish you luck, peace and comfort... keep searching. My prayers go out to you, your family and your friends.
We all make our own calls in life...we all have free will. I personally believe there's a universal law that says ALL my actions will carry consequences. Everything we say and do will manifest itself somehow. My personal experience and from what I've seen in everyone else in the world (alcoholic or not) we will (generally) continue to do whatever we want with no regard to the obvious consequences until they reach a point where we change, it kills us, or we die in pain. Unfortunately, not all of the "consequences" are obvious. Sometimes they're more subliminal or we're just not able to connect the dots.
You mentioned "meetings" so I feel ok in commenting on one of the things I've learned in/about AA. Whereas doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, etc usually try to help you see your problems, to change your ways, and to head off on a more suitable path..... AA almost seems to say the opposite. They tend to say go rock-n-roll all you can....drink all you want....u don't have to pray......u don't have to seek God...... you can do anything and everything you want..... AND DO IT.... and maybe it'll work. If it doesn't, then there's "this" way, this method, that lots and lots of us tried used and it absoluuuutely has worked for us.
For me, the only way I was going to give any "spiritual program of action" any chance at all was if I was completely out of other options. I'll say this in absolute confidence that I know what I'm feeling at exactly this moment - life can be better, can feel better, than I ever imagined it could. I was in the habit (and still am - perhaps to a lessor degree ....i hope) of settling for what I get in life and trying to make the best of it. That's a $hitty way to live......and I've spent the majority of my 41+ years doing just that. There's a WHOLE LOT MORE out there....but we have to go out and find it. Unfortunately, about the only time I go looking is when I'm hurting and just can't take it anymore.
I wish you luck, peace and comfort... keep searching. My prayers go out to you, your family and your friends.
Ethanol Intolerant
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 665
I found butt-kickings to be an impediment to getting as far as I have (which is not that far). They are readymade despair willing to transport me to the depths of addiction. Why get sober with all these messed up things in my life? Will I feel like a champ if I am sober and life still sucks? Big whoop was my response. I may have even created a few of the dilemmas just so I would have an excuse to go on a tear. I really did not make any progress until I realized that life was pretty special regardless of the messes I make.
LaF is right, whatever recovery you undertake it should be completely-a$$ed. Good decision or bad, it was Trish’s call and she made it.
Trish, I wish you strength, wisdom, and good fortune wherever your path may lead.
LaF is right, whatever recovery you undertake it should be completely-a$$ed. Good decision or bad, it was Trish’s call and she made it.
Trish, I wish you strength, wisdom, and good fortune wherever your path may lead.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
