onlythetruth

I don't mean to bash AA either, but the fact is that this issue comes up often enough on SR to suggest that it is a fairly common problem with that particular program. Also, I witnessed and personally experienced this often enough myself when I was in AA to conclude that it is a genuine concern. I agree that AA should take this problem very seriously because it can have such serious consequences. I know that at an institutional level AA does NOT have an antimedication stance and has issued a pamphlet specifically saying so, but at the group/meeting level it definitely exists. The only way to push back against it is to acknowledge it, to talk about it and refuse to accept it.

soberlicious

I agree miamifella....and how is a newcomer to know whom to listen to? People come out of desperation and are not always in a place to be able to discern which advice is sound and which is not. And whether an individual member wants to believe it or not, "the idiots" do reflect on the fellowship as a whole.

That's what I mean about making changes. If there are members present to speak up when a newcomer (or anyone really) is being offered dangerous advice, I think it would benefit the fellowship as a whole. SR does not allow medical advice and it is moderated. AA should not allow it either and members should "moderate" when it comes to this particular piece. Just my thoughts

nandm

This problem is not limited to AA it also occurs here at SR. There are people who firmly believe that because they have had a problem with drug addiction everyone who takes that particular medication will have a problem with drug addiction. It is the same thing that drives the people who preach against medication use in AA. In the past 15 to 20 years AA has seen an influx of people with cross addictions. There are many who are not only alcoholics but drug addicts. Too often they think that a "drug is a drug is a drug" and that is a dangerous stance to take when dealing with mental health issues. I am an alcoholic. Drugs have never interested me, I have never had any problem with them. I do not react to them the same way I react to alcohol. I am aware that there is always the potential that I could wind up with a drug problem and that is one reason I am careful about the medications I take. I make sure I know what I am taking, why I am taking it, take it as prescribed, and am an active participant in my care. One of the medications I take is Klonopin and have for the past 7 years taken it for the anxiety related to my PTSD. I have had people here at SR tell me it is a horrible drug and that I should not be taking it. I treat them the same way I do people in AA. I realize that they mean well and are sharing their experience and opinion and I in turn share mine. It is about educating people so they understand that just because they have a problem with something does not mean the rest of the world does. There are many threads here that have people who strongly advise people to not take benzo, narcotic, or "mind altering" medications because of their negative experiences with them. I don't stop coming to SR or run SR down because of it, nor do I believe that the opinion of those people expresses the majority of the opinions and experiences here at SR. It is no different with AA. A newcomer can come here to SR and receive the same negative information just as easily as AA. It does not make it right but it also is no reason to put AA in a negative light because of a few individuals. The best way to offset this is to educate people about these types of medications and mental illness in general. That does not mean bashing AA or running out on the program what it means is standing up and speaking up regarding these things. I have seen an improvement over the past 5 years in the program of AA as more people have stood up for mental illness and advocated for keeping AA out of the treatment of psychiatric disorders.

onlythetruth

Yes, it does happen here at SR. Among the AA members. I know some will think this is AA bashing, but it's not. It's just the truth. The antimedication stance is universally, or almost universally, limited to AA and other 12 step programs.

But even if that were not the case, the answer is never to shut up and accept. Acceptance is NOT the answer to this particular issue.

Mark75

That which crowns AA, unfortunately, also crucifies. Not only is AA non-professional it is anarchist.

AA depends on the integrity of it's members to police itself. My experience with this has been good. Taken as a whole, AA has enormous value for those interested in taking a spiritual approach to solving their alcohol problem. I hear disturbing things regarding this medication thing. We can speak up and educate. New members are directed to the rack of phamplets and we can encourage them to READ THEM!!

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

onlythetruth

I am glad for you that your experience has been good.

My experience with this has not been good, and judging from the number of people who start threads in the mental health forum sharing their experiences with being told to get off their meds, I'd say that the experience of many others has not been good either.

I even ran across a NAMI pamphlet a few months ago where NAMI was cautioning dually addicted people to ignore the anti-med advice they were likely to get in the rooms of AA. They weren't telling people not to go, but they were telling them to watch out.

I don't know what AA should do differently. I do know that if this problem came up in my program, SMART Recovery, I would be livid and I would be out on my soapbox to fight it. People's lives are at stake.

dsmaxis10

I love Bill W writings.Well if was just a one time event I could understand but I face it all the time like yesterday at an AA meeting someone came up to me and said we straighten out mentally refering to my mental illness.Which is not a spiritual malady. Oh just brush this topic in the back of living sober which they admit people have died because of play docters. Yes I look for better programs but I never found one.Were can you go all different times of the day and at least in my area read from Bill W writings. Were can you talk about spirituality face to face. Part of benevalence is putting with people who spread stigma page 133 and 114 said it best.

dsmaxis10

I did not bash AA. Bob darrel said AA recovery rate is 5,3,2=3.33 percent and he goes on to bash meds like chris raymer and many other AA icons and xa speakers supports this. Why is the truth being called bashing. Well I have not talked about being bipolar 1 with psychosis in years. My first and last sponser told everybody I was and he told some of my fifth step to people. I dont share at meetings cause the majority dont like what Bill W said. If you say recover you will be bashed and you say promises bashed again.

nandm

It is not and has not been limited to AA members here at SR. Look through the old threads. I have been here at SR several years now and do know what I am talking about. Where do you get your information to state that it is limited to AA and other 12 Step programs? My personal experience states otherwise. Is is your personal experience?

Again, as I have stated in each of my posts, I am an advocate for not accepting this behavior. Unlike you though I chose to stay with AA and change the system rather than run out on it and complain about it. I choose to work on the solution not complain about it being broke.

The program of AA saved my life. It is very frustrating to see someone run it down and encourage others to leave the program over something that is not even part of AA. AA is for alcoholism treatment it is not a drug rehab center. The problem continues to arise because AA has been the dumping house of treatment centers across the US for drug addicts and cross addicts. AA at some point is going to have to take a stand and clarify that it is not a clearing house for addicts it is a program for alcoholics. Until then the only thing that can be done is to continue to educate those addicts that come into the program thinking that because they can not handle medications without abusing them that everyone is like them.

soberlicious

I do not "bash" AA, or anyone. I have my own personal reasons for growing away from the program, only one of which is the medication issue. If I share my reasons for my departure from a certain way of thinking, it is in no way intended to put another down. I sometimes feel that if I give a differing opinion, it is considered "bashing" and that is just not the case. I respect anything that brings another peace. For example, I am not christian, but would not put that religion down. My grandmother was a devout christian and it was part of who she was. I greatly respected her strong beliefs, even if I did not share them. I do sometimes feel that members of AA can be easily defensive toward anyone who doesn't share their experience. I wish that were not the case. If I feel strongly about an issue I will certainly voice my opinions and would expect and welcome opposing opinions. I respect passion, and only through open dialogue can we develop understanding.That said, if others want to bash it's ok too...that is just their way...it does need to affect me.

michaeldenial

Unless your sponsor and his cronies have medical degrees, I would not put much stock in their opinions.

nandm

Thank you. You are correct. I have not seen any bashing on your part in this thread.

AA saved my life and yes, that makes me passionate about it. There are problems with any program of recovery used. Problems are not limited to AA. I do find it frustrating though when I see people come here and run the whole program down because of one problem. I see problems with other recovery programs yet I do not jump on them and use them as a tool to tell someone they should drop their chosen program of recovery. I feel that is counterproductive. I understand you left AA for several reasons. The key thing is you are sober. That is what is important. AA is not for everyone, I am the first person to acknowledge that, I have always encouraged people to check out all the recovery programs out there and find the one that works for them.

I still stand by my belief that the best way to address this type of problem is to be proactive and be an advocate for mental health treatment which may include medications for those that need it in AA. There is an open dialogue within the AA community regarding this topic in many areas and many groups. Unfortunately, as long as people try to use AA as a recovery program for drug addiction there will be those who, well meaning as they may be, will stand by the "no mind altering drugs" philosophy. One can only hope that enough people in AA stand up and remain a majority to offset those people and their harmful advice. That is one reason I keep coming back and am open about my mental health illness within AA.

onlythetruth

I have been here for some time as well, and I stand by my statement that the problem is, as I said, "universally or almost universally" restricted to AA members. There are a few exceptions, but they are very few.

I do appreciate your personal stance to push back against the antimedication faction in AA. I tried that myself for a time, but it's a "tall order" as you guys like to say--too tall for me, that's for sure. I figure that if corporate AA has been unable to change the culture by issuing literature to counter it, there's not much I can do as an individual. I certainly support your efforts though. It's such an important issue.

MickeyAnMeisce

I wonder if the opposition to psychotropic medication among some members of AA is at least in part sociohistorical. AA was founded and experienced its most explosive growth before there were reliable and non-addictive treatments for depression, anxiety, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Thus, while AA's official stance on psychiatry is that AA has no opinion on psychiatry, the sociological base of AA was formed during a time where there was quite understandably more suspicion of pscychopharmacological interventions which may have been unintentionally perpetuated through the institution of sponsorship.

The above is all very broad speculation, and I am not even trying to make anything approaching a definitive commentary. However, I do think that it is important to recognize that organization often have trouble breaking free of the sociohistorical context in which they formed, and that individual members also can cling to their own opinions, regardless of the official stance of the organizations to which they belong. Secular recover programs' acceptance of psychopharmacological interventions may also arise from the fact that most were founded relatively long after the establishment of psychopharmacology as a legitimate medical field and the explicit adoption of pyschotherapeutic techniques.

soberlicious

Excellent point, Mickey. Which is why I feel that at least some changes are in order if the organization is to continue with any kind of success at all.

MemphisBlues

I don't think this debate will be resolved, but I do want to point out that I have yet to sit in any room of NA or AA where there are not opinions on both side of the issue. There is no clear-cut, all AAs think psych meds are for crap lot.

My first sponsor is a Vietnam veteran with 28 years of sobriety with extreme PTSD and told me once, point-blank, "If it weren't for antidepressants, I would be dead."

At a time when I was at my lowest and couldn't get to a shrink (the one I had been seeing had me on a very low doze of Zoloft and after a few months of sobriety told me, "Go ahead, enjoy life, have a drink or two at night," so I was consulting others in AA to find a new doctor.

This is the same shrink that insisted I cold-turkey from 20 milligrams of klonopin and almost killed me.

But my first sponsor, who had experience with Zoloft, told me to double my Zoloft prescription from 50 milligrams (nary enough to help a gnat, let alone a human) to 100 milligrams until I could see a new psychiatrist specializing in addiction.

I shared this with two members of NA and AA and they immediately told me I had relapsed. I protested, saying, hey, I thought surrender was part of doing what your sponsor told you to do? But they had a great point; though my sponsor could totally relate to severe depression and was concerned about me, he ain't a doctor and can't prescribe squat. He agreed after I told him what others thought. He was only trying to provide immediate relief for the few days while money issues and other things prevented me from seeing the new doctor.

Well, I saw the new psychiatrist and she immediately tripled my dose to 150 milligrams, still about 100 milligrams under what is normally prescribed to someone with a 20-year run of treatment for major depression with panic disorder and generalized anxiety disorder and who has been on a half dozen other antidepressants.

That said, the issue of Klonopin was brought up in this thread. I relied on Klonopin or Xanax for a couple of decades. My hackles get raised by this drug only because of the paradoxical nature of benzodiazepines.

There were years upon years where I simply would not have been able to function without a benzo, but I must point out that this is now a highly controversial treatment of choice among psychiatrists and medical doctors.

Manufacturers of these drugs label the medication as a short-term, short-use medication, and most patients are on it for years. Xanax now carries labeling stating it should only be used for a few weeks and only in extreme circumstances. The FDA is considering a petition to require all benzos to carry the same dire warnings, and beef up warnings about crippling withdrawal dangers and between dose withdrawal symptoms. Warnings of high tolerance build up are also being considered.

Medical evidence regarding tolerance levels and severe withdrawal complications are leading many health-care providers to shy away from long-term use and opt for other medications. When I was a somewhat functioning professional, I don't think I could have tackled the panic and subsequent depression without a benzo, but I also drank and smoked pot throughout my prescribed use of them.

I know of several in the rooms who take one or two milligrams of Klonopin a day and Ambien for sleep. I also know a sponsor who insists one of his sponsees who suffers from hypothyroidism not see a psychiatrist to obtain an antidepressant, even though that condition can hammer someone depression wise.

My present sponsor, with 30 years of sobriety, wouldn't think of augmenting my prescribed medications. She does, however, do some research and consult professionals about my mental health history in hopes of finding medication that better treats my disability.

Any sponsor or anyone in the rooms who questions another persons "sobriety" because of prescribed use of psychotropic drugs is someone I don't want to be around. Does that make me not go to meetings? Nope. In fact, I share about my medication all the time, have never been challenged about it, and would, serenity be damned, throttle someone who attempted to challenge the quality of my sobriety.

Then again, I would probably take issue with someone who gets benzos from a medical doctor, not a psychiatrist, if the doctor isn't fully aware of a person's addictive disorder. I think that happens a lot, MDs prescribe benzos instead of referring patients to psychiatrists, and patients may often not fully disclose their history of alcohol abuse or drug abuse to the family doctor, who whips out a prescription pad thinking, "Oh, I can fix this. Suck these down for a few years," thinking it's better than the patient self medicating with alcohol.

My only concern, bottom line, is that benzos create pure hell for a lot of people, that the medical establishment has been very slow in reigning in long-term use and is only recently (last decade or so) gaining awareness of grave consequences, and that the withdrawal from benzos is, apparently, unlike any other drug; maybe meth withdrawal comes close as it and benzos are the only drugs I have read about which create withdrawals because of the drugs absence, not pure physical detox, from the drug. What really irks me is that many doctors don't even buy into benzo withdrawal, or doubt the severity of it.

I have yet to meet a booze hound, meth head, smack jack, coke poke or downer freak that also ended up on benzos that wouldn't rather suck a bullet or go through a dozen withdrawals from their drug of choice rather than go through benzo withdrawal. Not being a martyr (lie), but it is singularly some wicked ******* ****. I have yet to find another drug where the brain has to rewire over months, that creates withdrawals symptoms from the drug's absence, not from the body detoxing from it. It's a strange paradox, I know. ... And it turns out I'm not terminally unique.

Yeah, alcohol and any other drug can create Protracted Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, but I suspect benzos are among a class all their own in the sheer number of people who experience protracted withdrawals, and, according to sufferer anecdotes, hellish withdrawal for months and even years occurs from people taking low dosages over short periods of time, let alone the years and elephantine heaps a shrink had me on for a decade.

onlythetruth

MemphisBlues: I really appreciate your post, and I hope nothing I've written here leads anyone to think that I'm under the impression that ALL AA members are against the use of psychiatric medications. I am well aware that this is untrue. I also believe, based on my own experiences with AA (I was a member for nearly a decade) that in terms of numbers, the anti-medication faction is the minority. However, they tend to be a very vocal minority, from what I've seen--and they often have the imprimatur of Time.

I have often mused about where this attitude comes from. Others have suggested it comes from the presence of "drug addicts" in AA who mistakenly think that all drugs are bad and spread that message. But my own experience suggests that the notion comes out of a (IMHO) warped interpretation of AA's philosophy, and the notion that if God can relieve alcoholism he can also relieve mental illness. From this idea evolves the conclusion the taking of medications is unnecessary, because if a person works the steps, God will take care of everything--and in fact, taking the meds actually gets in the way of God's power. "Medications quiet the still, small voice of God" was what I heard in the rooms, dozens of times.

Perhaps the origin of the problem is less important than finding a solution to it, I don't know. I do know that the problem is not solved by silence or by pretending it isn't there.

soberlicious

or that because only a few carry a misconception, that makes it insignificant.

onlythetruth

Yes indeed. The problem should not be minimized for any reason. The potential consequences are far too great.

paulamarie

This issue with the psyche meds and AA always gets me angry. The bottom line is ignorant people can be dangerous. Coming into AA a lot of people are vunerable and desperate to get sober. So they listen to people who dont have a clue about mental illness. I think the last thing someone trying to get sober needs is to have someone, such as a sponser, telling them what they can and cannot do concerning medication.
That should be a red flag right there. Long term sobriety does not equal a medical degree.
I dont see anti-depressants as mind altering. How can something that tempers depression and suicidal tendencies be seen as some kind of "happy pill". Its just plain ignorance. As someone who suffers from depression I have done the "I dont need my meds" dance on and off for years. I finally realized that I do need my meds and my chance of recovery were nil without them.
I also have a schizophrenic child. He was homicidal and suicidal for years untill we finally found the right meds.
Sponsers have no business dishing out any kind of medical advice. Instead of worring about rocking the boat, this should be made clear in the program.
Bill W. himself, sought the help of the renouned psychiatrist Carl Jung. This is where the spiritual awakening concept came from. He sought help from the medical and psychiatric community. I dont know where this narrow minded idea of no medications comes from as it is clearly stated in the book to seek outside help.
This issue just frustrates the hell out of me. So what is this sponser going to say when someone suicides? I'm sorry?? Uhhh, I didnt know??? Thats the problem right there. That person doesnt know and here they are telling someone how to live, or possibly die. Dangerous stuff. Ego run amuck.