A provocative, interesting tidbit I found....
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 864
I watched both, always looking to learn, and yet …
What I did learn is that even with the compassion there and the resources at hand that the success rate is very low. At all costs well I guess it was good that he was honest there. The only other truth I found was the effect of a mother’s stress on her child.
Harm reduction I will always advocate for because it is something I believe in. I am even an advocate for sub and methadone. I know it isn’t the drug, but the person’s willingness who uses either as a tool.
Did I hear right, because I don’t have a desire to listen again … Drugs aren’t addictive? That would mean Perdue wasn’t lying about Oxy. Boy they could have used him when the **** hit the fan. <rolling eyes>
All those who got hook on pills, mentally and physically without every having an issue with addiction previously? Where do we put them at on this spectrum now?
And my husband, well what the hell is his problem, no abuse, no trauma, but hard core rings true.
Oh and while abuse did play a part in my life, loving the high played a bigger one.
And addiction isn’t genetic? When talking about heredity and genetics this is an interesting article.
PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | Evidence for a Genetic Component for Substance Dependence in Native Americans
What I did learn is that even with the compassion there and the resources at hand that the success rate is very low. At all costs well I guess it was good that he was honest there. The only other truth I found was the effect of a mother’s stress on her child.
Harm reduction I will always advocate for because it is something I believe in. I am even an advocate for sub and methadone. I know it isn’t the drug, but the person’s willingness who uses either as a tool.
Did I hear right, because I don’t have a desire to listen again … Drugs aren’t addictive? That would mean Perdue wasn’t lying about Oxy. Boy they could have used him when the **** hit the fan. <rolling eyes>
All those who got hook on pills, mentally and physically without every having an issue with addiction previously? Where do we put them at on this spectrum now?
And my husband, well what the hell is his problem, no abuse, no trauma, but hard core rings true.
Oh and while abuse did play a part in my life, loving the high played a bigger one.
And addiction isn’t genetic? When talking about heredity and genetics this is an interesting article.
PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | Evidence for a Genetic Component for Substance Dependence in Native Americans
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
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Ann, you are such a kind and thoughtful soul. You are right...addiction brings so much pain all the way around.
I guess having been addicted it strikes such a nerve with me and brings such mixed feelings. When people said I was a piece of sh*t mother, unfortunately they were not entirely wrong. I was. I was not a good person overall. Would I have become a good mother is someone had allowed me to safely continue abusing drugs and alcohol? I don't know.
Safe injection sites will definitely reduce the infections and crime associated with IV drug use. Unfortunately, that's a small percentage of drug users. There is and will continue to be crimes and health problems associated with addiction, no matter how drugs are ingested...smoked, snorted, popped, drank. I would wager that almost every crime...theft, prostitution, child neglect, domestic violence...involves substance addiction in some form or another.
I was running 7 miles the other day and I came across a woman my age stumbling in the bushes, coming out of where she likely lives (if you can call it living) She had a backpack, was smoking a cigarette, and stumbled in circles for quite some time. I looked down at my strong legs that I built up to carry me miles and miles, felt my strong lungs, my strong heart, thought about the home I would go to after my run and my children I would hug. I had this weird mix of sadness and guilt...because really she could be me, and I her.
If I truly thought that putting my arms around her would have made her better, I would have laid in the bushes with her until she could be well.
What makes the difference between her and I? That is the million dollar question.
I guess having been addicted it strikes such a nerve with me and brings such mixed feelings. When people said I was a piece of sh*t mother, unfortunately they were not entirely wrong. I was. I was not a good person overall. Would I have become a good mother is someone had allowed me to safely continue abusing drugs and alcohol? I don't know.
Safe injection sites will definitely reduce the infections and crime associated with IV drug use. Unfortunately, that's a small percentage of drug users. There is and will continue to be crimes and health problems associated with addiction, no matter how drugs are ingested...smoked, snorted, popped, drank. I would wager that almost every crime...theft, prostitution, child neglect, domestic violence...involves substance addiction in some form or another.
I was running 7 miles the other day and I came across a woman my age stumbling in the bushes, coming out of where she likely lives (if you can call it living) She had a backpack, was smoking a cigarette, and stumbled in circles for quite some time. I looked down at my strong legs that I built up to carry me miles and miles, felt my strong lungs, my strong heart, thought about the home I would go to after my run and my children I would hug. I had this weird mix of sadness and guilt...because really she could be me, and I her.
If I truly thought that putting my arms around her would have made her better, I would have laid in the bushes with her until she could be well.
What makes the difference between her and I? That is the million dollar question.
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
There but for the grace of God go I. That's the way I see it.
It's not a solution to anything, really, it's an attempt to lessen the danger of one segments of addiction, drug injection. Harm reduction is not a solution, but it may let the addicts using the facilities live long enough to find a solution themselves. Rehab's not a solution either, it's a tool that helps many find a better path.
And as with any government funded (or otherwise) program, there will be good people and bad people, honest people and dishonest people, those working for the common good and those in it for their own gain. Shame on those who exploit any program designed to help any segment of society.
Shame on anyone who labels an addict without seeing the person beneath the addiction. Compassion is free and an important part of solving any problem.
It's not a solution to anything, really, it's an attempt to lessen the danger of one segments of addiction, drug injection. Harm reduction is not a solution, but it may let the addicts using the facilities live long enough to find a solution themselves. Rehab's not a solution either, it's a tool that helps many find a better path.
And as with any government funded (or otherwise) program, there will be good people and bad people, honest people and dishonest people, those working for the common good and those in it for their own gain. Shame on those who exploit any program designed to help any segment of society.
Shame on anyone who labels an addict without seeing the person beneath the addiction. Compassion is free and an important part of solving any problem.
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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I find this article informative:
The Seductive (But Dangerous) Allure of Gabor Maté | Psychology Today
The author takes nothing away from Gabor Mate's work (Insite and Portland Hotel Society) while addressing concerning philosophies of Mate's.
The Seductive (But Dangerous) Allure of Gabor Maté | Psychology Today
The author takes nothing away from Gabor Mate's work (Insite and Portland Hotel Society) while addressing concerning philosophies of Mate's.
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Originally Posted by Ann
Shame on anyone who labels an addict without seeing the person beneath the addiction. Compassion is free and an important part of solving any problem.
ETA Mate's theory that all addiction results from childhood trauma is just that. A theory.
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Originally Posted by allforcnm 
There is an interesting interview that was given by Dr Gabor Mate. He worked at Insite in Vancouver and has some added points that I think would be helpful to share here, as it describes more of his philosophy. The whole article can be found here on the Secular Family Forum: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ough-love.html
I will share some of the key points here:
Dr. Gabor Mate is renowned in Canada for his work in treating people with the worst addictions, most notably at Vancouver’s controversial Insite facility, which provides users with clean needles, medical support and a safe space to inject drugs.
In Mate’s book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction, which was a No. 1 bestseller in Canada, he advocates for the compassionate treatment of addiction, a position that is increasingly receiving international attention
The question is, Is it better for people to inject drugs with puddle water or sterile water? Is it better to use clean needles or share so that you pass on HIV and hepatitis C? This is what harm reduction is. It doesn’t treat addiction, it just reduces harm. In medicine, we do this all the time. People smoke but we still give them inhalers to open airways, so what’s different? You’re not enabling anything they’re not already using.
I worked for 12 years in the Americas’ most concentrated area of drug use, the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver. People live there in the street with HIV and hepatitis and festering wounds: what more of a bottom can they hit? If hitting bottom helped people, there would be no addicts at all in the Downtown Eastside. ‘Bottom’ is very relative, so it’s a meaningless concept. For me as a doctor, rockbottom might be losing my medical license, but what is a bottom for a person who has been abused all her life and lives on the street? It’s meaningless and false.
People don’t need more negative things to happen to them to give it up. They need more positive things to happen.
I think childhood trauma or emotional loss is the universal template for addiction. There are two things that can go wrong in childhood: things that happen that shouldn’t happen — that’s trauma — and things that should happen that don’t happen. Children are equally hurt by things that should happen and don’t as they are by things that shouldn’t happen but do.
What I’m saying is that early emotional loss is the universal template for all addictions. All addictions are about self-soothing.
How will it help if I punish them more? They need the very opposite. We end up punishing them for self-soothing. It makes no sense at all. Harm reduction is not an end in itself. Ideally, what it is is a first step towardsa more thorough-going [recovery], but you have to begin with where people are at.
That’s the key. Quite apart from clean needles and sterile water, the most important factor is for the first time saying to someone who has been rejected all their life, ‘We’re not going to judge you based on how you present your needs at the present moment.’ Harm reduction is much more than set of practices; it’s a way of relating to people. We’re not requiring you to stop using or do anything, we’re just trying to help you get healthier. At least you’re not going to suffer an infection of the bone marrow because you’re using a clean needle: is that not worth something? We’re here to reduce suffering. They may not get better in the sense of giving up the addiction, but that’s not a limit of harm reduction — that’s a limit of the treatment system.
In term of addictions, first of all recognize that these people are traumatized and what they need is not more trauma and punishment but more compassion.
I will share some of the key points here:
Dr. Gabor Mate is renowned in Canada for his work in treating people with the worst addictions, most notably at Vancouver’s controversial Insite facility, which provides users with clean needles, medical support and a safe space to inject drugs.
In Mate’s book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction, which was a No. 1 bestseller in Canada, he advocates for the compassionate treatment of addiction, a position that is increasingly receiving international attention
The question is, Is it better for people to inject drugs with puddle water or sterile water? Is it better to use clean needles or share so that you pass on HIV and hepatitis C? This is what harm reduction is. It doesn’t treat addiction, it just reduces harm. In medicine, we do this all the time. People smoke but we still give them inhalers to open airways, so what’s different? You’re not enabling anything they’re not already using.
I worked for 12 years in the Americas’ most concentrated area of drug use, the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver. People live there in the street with HIV and hepatitis and festering wounds: what more of a bottom can they hit? If hitting bottom helped people, there would be no addicts at all in the Downtown Eastside. ‘Bottom’ is very relative, so it’s a meaningless concept. For me as a doctor, rockbottom might be losing my medical license, but what is a bottom for a person who has been abused all her life and lives on the street? It’s meaningless and false.
People don’t need more negative things to happen to them to give it up. They need more positive things to happen.
I think childhood trauma or emotional loss is the universal template for addiction. There are two things that can go wrong in childhood: things that happen that shouldn’t happen — that’s trauma — and things that should happen that don’t happen. Children are equally hurt by things that should happen and don’t as they are by things that shouldn’t happen but do.
What I’m saying is that early emotional loss is the universal template for all addictions. All addictions are about self-soothing.
How will it help if I punish them more? They need the very opposite. We end up punishing them for self-soothing. It makes no sense at all. Harm reduction is not an end in itself. Ideally, what it is is a first step towardsa more thorough-going [recovery], but you have to begin with where people are at.
That’s the key. Quite apart from clean needles and sterile water, the most important factor is for the first time saying to someone who has been rejected all their life, ‘We’re not going to judge you based on how you present your needs at the present moment.’ Harm reduction is much more than set of practices; it’s a way of relating to people. We’re not requiring you to stop using or do anything, we’re just trying to help you get healthier. At least you’re not going to suffer an infection of the bone marrow because you’re using a clean needle: is that not worth something? We’re here to reduce suffering. They may not get better in the sense of giving up the addiction, but that’s not a limit of harm reduction — that’s a limit of the treatment system.
In term of addictions, first of all recognize that these people are traumatized and what they need is not more trauma and punishment but more compassion.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 2,282
So many great viewpoints and counterpoints, I would be remiss were I not to say
that I have gained a bit of wisdom from each and every one of them.
One of the things that fall away with childhood's end is simplicity. The black and
white certainty cannot be brought into adulthood because it will rapidly be smashed into
smithereens by the facts woven into the very fabric of reality.
(No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy!)
I love the slogan currently in vogue with the RAF.....Agile, Adaptable, Capable.
(It is a moderate sized air force, with no illusions of being able to take on a first tier
foe...e.g. US....but----with that being said, it projects the unmistakable essence of
"Mess with us---and you will regret it!"
Harm reduction as an idea will not go away with away b.c.o. petty political money
grab by minions----this is a mode well known to any local sports league whose middle
aged dissatisfied housewife secretary-treasurer finds herself proximate to a pile of money
and feels a Hawaii vacation is something she "deserves". It is endemic.
Does it share obvious elements with codependence? Of course it does. But deeply
woven into the idea is the sacred western idea that human life has value. The idea that,
no matter HOW far you fall, or HOW many stupid decisions you make---you are STILL a
human being......not a cockroach. And I believe that idea has merit.
Others have other ideas. Undeveloped, in my personal opinion. A housewife, like the
one I helped......should be shamed, and tortured...have their dignity stripped away, and
then thrown away like garbage via obscenely long prison sentences-----at astronomical
cost to society, both fiscally and spiritually. And oh, by the way.....if 'horrible things'
happen to them in prison.....all the better! THAT IS WHAT THEY SIGNED UP FOR when
they 'chose' this path.
I reject this line of reasoning, absolutely and categorically. And as long as people
like me are in charge of this planet---we will fight it to our dying breath.
But my generation is getting older, and soon we will take our place amongst your
distant ancestors. What do you under-30s think? Will you find your solace in ideas
that would be welcomed in the middle ages? Or will your thinking be non-binary...
perhaps even agile, adaptable, and capable?
Take it from an old operator. If you take black and white into battle---you are
going to get SLAUGHTERED.
And if anyone takes it upon themselves to decide that......say Ann's son....is no
longer entitled to the decency and dignity deserved by ALL human beings (no matter
their condition or station)........then I wager they will find out the hard way just how
many decent people there are.....and just how ugly & efficient even non-professionals
can be at the dark arts should their loved ones face the threat of confiscation of their
humanity.
that I have gained a bit of wisdom from each and every one of them.
One of the things that fall away with childhood's end is simplicity. The black and
white certainty cannot be brought into adulthood because it will rapidly be smashed into
smithereens by the facts woven into the very fabric of reality.
(No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy!)
I love the slogan currently in vogue with the RAF.....Agile, Adaptable, Capable.
(It is a moderate sized air force, with no illusions of being able to take on a first tier
foe...e.g. US....but----with that being said, it projects the unmistakable essence of
"Mess with us---and you will regret it!"
Harm reduction as an idea will not go away with away b.c.o. petty political money
grab by minions----this is a mode well known to any local sports league whose middle
aged dissatisfied housewife secretary-treasurer finds herself proximate to a pile of money
and feels a Hawaii vacation is something she "deserves". It is endemic.
Does it share obvious elements with codependence? Of course it does. But deeply
woven into the idea is the sacred western idea that human life has value. The idea that,
no matter HOW far you fall, or HOW many stupid decisions you make---you are STILL a
human being......not a cockroach. And I believe that idea has merit.
Others have other ideas. Undeveloped, in my personal opinion. A housewife, like the
one I helped......should be shamed, and tortured...have their dignity stripped away, and
then thrown away like garbage via obscenely long prison sentences-----at astronomical
cost to society, both fiscally and spiritually. And oh, by the way.....if 'horrible things'
happen to them in prison.....all the better! THAT IS WHAT THEY SIGNED UP FOR when
they 'chose' this path.
I reject this line of reasoning, absolutely and categorically. And as long as people
like me are in charge of this planet---we will fight it to our dying breath.
But my generation is getting older, and soon we will take our place amongst your
distant ancestors. What do you under-30s think? Will you find your solace in ideas
that would be welcomed in the middle ages? Or will your thinking be non-binary...
perhaps even agile, adaptable, and capable?
Take it from an old operator. If you take black and white into battle---you are
going to get SLAUGHTERED.
And if anyone takes it upon themselves to decide that......say Ann's son....is no
longer entitled to the decency and dignity deserved by ALL human beings (no matter
their condition or station)........then I wager they will find out the hard way just how
many decent people there are.....and just how ugly & efficient even non-professionals
can be at the dark arts should their loved ones face the threat of confiscation of their
humanity.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,405
Originally Posted by Vale
Others have other ideas. Undeveloped, in my personal opinion. A housewife, like the one I helped......should be shamed, and tortured...have their dignity stripped away, and then thrown away like garbage via obscenely long prison sentences-----at astronomical cost to society, both fiscally and spiritually. And oh, by the way.....if 'horrible things'
happen to them in prison.....all the better! THAT IS WHAT THEY SIGNED UP FOR when they 'chose' this path.
I reject this line of reasoning, absolutely and categorically. And as long as people like me are in charge of this planet---we will fight it to our dying breath.
happen to them in prison.....all the better! THAT IS WHAT THEY SIGNED UP FOR when they 'chose' this path.
I reject this line of reasoning, absolutely and categorically. And as long as people like me are in charge of this planet---we will fight it to our dying breath.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 2,282
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/p...ndulgence.html
================================================== ==============
....I could Google up thousands of these links if I had the time. But I will only speak to
my interpersonal experiences.
People I talk to (unless they have direct experience) ROUTINELY express opinions to
me of the 'addicts as waste of space'....'need to be put away forever'.....and "we'd
be better off without them". When I say routinely---what I really meant was
EVERY SINGLE PERSON.
(Sadly...including me before this awful sidetrack)
Will they VERBALIZE and put their name to these feelings in a broader sense than
one-on-one communication? Do we here on SR broadcast our true identity?
Why not?
Like other societal subjects too explosive to touch......they will never be 'discussed openly'.
HI! My name is Peter Gibbons and I live at 453 Klaas St in Hoboken and I think that ____________
........you can fill in the rest.
No. In real life, people speak in code. People move to a certain neighborhood "for the schools".
Why didn't you move to THAT neighborhood? Homes cost 1/3 as much there!
(Oh.....right........"the schools".).....class is another red hot "no touchie".
But if your thesis is that there is an enormous groundswell (evident in
everyday conversations with everyday people) of empathy for "junkies",
then I have to say you and I inhabit very different worlds.
I sense more empathy for active Al Q'aida combatants.
(not too many people have had their home burglarized by the latter)
================================================== ==============
....I could Google up thousands of these links if I had the time. But I will only speak to
my interpersonal experiences.
People I talk to (unless they have direct experience) ROUTINELY express opinions to
me of the 'addicts as waste of space'....'need to be put away forever'.....and "we'd
be better off without them". When I say routinely---what I really meant was
EVERY SINGLE PERSON.
(Sadly...including me before this awful sidetrack)
Will they VERBALIZE and put their name to these feelings in a broader sense than
one-on-one communication? Do we here on SR broadcast our true identity?
Why not?
Like other societal subjects too explosive to touch......they will never be 'discussed openly'.
HI! My name is Peter Gibbons and I live at 453 Klaas St in Hoboken and I think that ____________
........you can fill in the rest.
No. In real life, people speak in code. People move to a certain neighborhood "for the schools".
Why didn't you move to THAT neighborhood? Homes cost 1/3 as much there!
(Oh.....right........"the schools".).....class is another red hot "no touchie".
But if your thesis is that there is an enormous groundswell (evident in
everyday conversations with everyday people) of empathy for "junkies",
then I have to say you and I inhabit very different worlds.
I sense more empathy for active Al Q'aida combatants.
(not too many people have had their home burglarized by the latter)
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,405
Additionally, In my own personal experience over the past 15 years, I personally have never heard these views expressed. A couple months ago when my state started discussing legalizing weed, one of my neighbors on FB who is a state delegate posted a newspaper article about it. He is an outspoken conservative who was very against the pending legislation. The conversation between he, his friends and constituents quickly turned to addiction and addicts in our state and county. As I watched the replies grow, I was composing a reply in my head preparing for what I thought would be coming. I was pleasantly surprised of the compassion voiced as the conversation turned to a treat don’t incarcerate discussion. And, while most if not all were against legalization, they mostly were also against wasting tax dollars to arrest, try, and convict small possession or paraphernalia charges.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by cynical one
While the tone of the article is somewhat harsh, the same things are said here frequently making "us" part of "them". I think I find it offensive because it is authored by an outsider...or is she?
or bring discomfort---please know it was never my intention. As I stated,
the whole thing has been a ghastly sidetrack to a hell of a well lived life---
but my reason for being here ended long ago in a municipal paupers grave.
Perhaps all I was trying to say was....in the absence of hard data
(or a coin to toss)...choose kindness. You may well be proven wrong,
taken advantage of, or come to regret your decision.....
.....but be kind anyway.
.
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Originally Posted by Vale
Perhaps all I was trying to say was....in the absence of hard data
(or a coin to toss)...choose kindness. You may well be proven wrong,
taken advantage of, or come to regret your decision.....
.....but be kind anyway.
.
(or a coin to toss)...choose kindness. You may well be proven wrong,
taken advantage of, or come to regret your decision.....
.....but be kind anyway.
.
And thank you for the kind words about my son. When I feel myself about to judge anyone on the street or in jail or any place at all...I remind myself, that could be my son.
And just an added thought...this past winter a large newspaper in Toronto where I lived with my husband and my son until a few years ago, there was a photograph taken that won an award...it was a photo of a street person laying over a subway grate (where warm air flows up) in the middle of winter. The man is huddled under a blanket with a hoody drawn over his head, and has bare feet. In the photo he lays there and the legs of people walking by are shown. I can only guess they pretended not to see. Here's the hard part...I am pretty sure that man was my son. I shared the picture with a few here, some who know what he looks like, and it shook me to see it. I thought of calling the newspaper to check...and then didn't because it always goes back to that question..."and then what?"
I can't live in the world of addiction with my son, but nobody has more compassion than I do, for him and for all who suffer.
My point is...that junkie, that street bum, could be my son, your brother, someone's father, and they have souls underneath the addiction. If God loves all His children, as I know He does, the least we can do is be kind.
Thank you again, Vale, I need this reminder.
Hugs
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,405
In no way do I find anything you posted or said offensive. I think this has been a great discussion. And, I think it's all a very gray area where I see both sides of things. I do try to be kind, and especially get a high out of random acts of kindness. But, I don't think kindness should be gifted to the undeserving...and being an addict or not doesn't have anything to do with it.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
I have the sudden urge to bust out a few refrains of kumbayah. 
I appreciate the frank and respectful discussion of a very controversial topic.
I appreciate the frank and respectful discussion of a very controversial topic.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 2,282
I suck at singing......I could try but
to do so would be to invite the question....
"Who is strangling the cat?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMcZxyuf8Q
to do so would be to invite the question....
"Who is strangling the cat?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMcZxyuf8Q
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