L0stH0pe

well maybe i am not as codependent as i thought because i have learned over the last few months/weeks to say "no".. ok, only to certain things like handing over cash or (as yesterday) making an unnecessary trip, but i certainly am now in a position to say "no" to ah...

and i have a "sense" of me... i just dont recognize the "me", i dont know who or what *i* am now after all that has happened.

L0stH0pe

lol just to lighten things up a little bit.. i picked up on the currant current issue but learned that currants are berries and not (as i had believed my entire life as a towny) a fruit

Kindeyes

I had a relationship with a currant once......I couldn't say no....even to a berry (and it lied and told me it was a fruit!)

.....but we digress.....

Praying

I agree that the word "codependent" can strike fear in the common man. I grew up with one understanding of it, and two good friends have two totally different definitions. Beatty's book describes that it's different for everyone's interpretation.

I think of it as this- am I living the life I want to live, seeking the happiness I deserve? Or have I acquired a set of behaviors that aren't serving me well (or that I'm not proud of)? If I've done it as a result of relationships I'm trying to "make work", then the shoe fits. And darn it because I don't like that color.

I never controlled his drinking. I never dumped his alcohol, never checked his breath, never checked pockets, scoffed at purchases or searched for hidden alcohol. I never played detective to unearth his affair...because that was all his business and I had to decide if I was okay with it or believe his lies. He quit drinking more times than I can count. I quietly supported, removed alcohol from the house when asked, didn't judge when he failed. I never belittled, never bothered him a bit about it. (And he still blamed me by the way, sometimes because I "didn't care", other times because I wouldn't engage and "he drank because he was lonely", or "the house is chaotic"... the list goes on. He was furious that I wouldn't own this issue.)

Through the years of his behavior I detached and didn't control the drinking, learned I couldn't expect emotional support because he couldn't give it, and accepted that I could deal with that...yay me.

In a recent conversation with a friend I realized the above was due to the blessing of some counseling in my teens that "I am only responsible for my own behavior and happiness, not others. They own their own happiness."

So I'm not codependent. I'm not trying to control things. (Sounds great, right? Keep reading.)

BUT.

I slowly accepted a lot of abuse and control from him...not realizing how it slowly escalated as he progressed. I claimed I was living and letting live, but I was slowly becoming afraid to draw the right lines to truly demand my own happiness, and the lines were first bent, then broken. I became a people pleaser, I accepted the blame, guilt, projection and gaslighting that came my way because I was a "good, supportive wife" and it was "better for the kids", and "he was so broken". I couldn't expect him to do any better. I thought it was my job to love him through it all and hold this family together whether he wanted it or not.

And I struggled with leaving for my own sanity or happiness, because it "wasn't that bad" and "marriage is work" and "this is what better or worse means". I don't believe in divorce (this was HARD for me).

And to all that I say bull$hit.

Marriage books don't do justice here. A marriage to an active addict is a one-way give (with no "take"). And healthy people can't keep giving and giving without sacrificing themselves (and maybe others) in a big way. IMO, unless the addict enters recovery relatively early, the relationship is a dance with an inevitable ending. For those truly working recovery, it can be a different story. But that relies on the addict, it has nothing to do with the spouse, parent, etc.

My pastor told me- God doesn't like divorce, but he never intended self-sacrifice. Think carefully about what God really wants for YOUR life.

So I don't care what it's called. It ain't healthy. And I've been there whether I like it or not. And I'm going to work darn hard to teach my kids a better way, to see it early on.

Perhaps we should relabel...

After talking about God, can I say I prefer to label my condition FUBAR?

Lol...

incitingsilence

I will leave this for those anyone who wishes to take the time to look honestly at their lives, their whole lives, not just their time since addiction walked into their lives. Think out of the box not just including the addict in your life … with parents, children, friends, co workers, past relationships. Codependents tend to have characteristics in all their relationships. This isn’t for comparison, for any of that I am not like or I don‘t … comparing out (so an addict thing) is very dangerous to ones own soul. Just find your own truth and own it …

I also recommend step 4, the California version, all three parts, to anyone. Again it is about investigating who you are, where you are doing ok, where you might need help, where you might need to heal. No matter what your feelings are about Alanon, even if you never went or don‘t buy into it. I never went into a room but I did all them steps because I had to. I did everything I saw suggested because I was worth my time. And honestly the moment I thought well that won’t help me, or I don’t need to, or I am not like, was the moment I added another brick to the wall I built around myself.

It will always be about one’s own willingness to learn. If you can stay willing you will find your way.



Codependent No More by Melody Beattie.
Checklist for Codependency.


Caretaking

Codependents may:

think and feel responsible for other people–for other people’s feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny
feel anxiety, pity and guilt when other people have a problem
feel compelled – almost forced – to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings
feel angry when their help isn’t effective
anticipate other people’s needs
wonder why others don’t do the same for them
find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don’t really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves
do not know what they want and need, or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important
try to please others instead of themselves
find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves
feel safest when giving
feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them
feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them
find themselves attracted to needy people
find needy people attracted to them
feel bored, empty and worthless if they don’t have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help
abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else
over-commit themselves
feel harried and pressured
believe deep inside that other people are somehow responsible for them
blame others for the spot the codependents are in
say other people make the codependents feel the way they do
believe other people are making them crazy
feel angry, victimized, unappreciated and used
find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics

Low Self-Worth

Codependents tend to:

come from trouble, repressed or dysfunctional families
deny their family was troubled, repressed or dysfunctional
blame themselves for everything
pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act and behave
get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize the codependents–something codependents regularly do to themselves
reject compliments or praise
get depressed from a lack of compliments or praise (stroke deprivation)
feel different from the rest of the world
think they’re not quite good enough
feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves
fear rejection
take things personally
have been victims of sexual, physical or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment or alcoholism
feel like victims
tell themselves they can’t do anything right
are afraid of making mistakes
wonder why they have a tough time making decisions
expect themselves to do everything perfectly
wonder why they can’t get anything done to their satisfaction
have a lot of “shoulds”
feel a lot of guilt
feel ashamed of who they are
think their lives aren’t worth living
try to help other people live their lives instead
get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others
get strong feelings of low self-worth — embarrassment, failure, etc. — from other people’s failures and problems
wish good things would happen to them
believe good things will never happen
believe they don’t deserve good things and happiness
wish other people would like and love them
believe other people couldn’t possibly like and love them
try to prove they’re good enough for other people
settle for being needed

Repression

Many codependents:

push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt
become afraid to let themselves be who they are
appear rigid and controlled

Obsession

Codependents tend to:

feel terribly anxious about problems and people
worry about the silliest things
think and talk a lot about other people
lose sleep over problems or other people’s behavior
worry
never find answers
check on people
try to catch people in acts of misbehavior
feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems
abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something
focus all their energy on other people and problems
wonder why they never have any energy
wonder why they can’t get things done

Controlling

Many codependents:

have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment
become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally
don’t see or deal with their fear of loss of control
think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave
try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation or domination
eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people’s anger
get frustrated and angry
feel controlled by events and people

Denial

Codependents tend to:

ignore problems or pretend they aren’t happening
pretend circumstances aren’t as bad as they are
tell themselves things will be better tomorrow
stay busy so they don’t have to think about things
get confused
get depressed or sick
go to doctors to get tranquilizers
become workaholics
spend money compulsively
overeat
pretend those things aren’t happening, either
watch problems get worse
believe lies
lie to themselves
wonder why they feel like they’re going crazy

Dependency

Many codependents:

don’t feel happy, content or peaceful with themselves
look for happiness outside themselves
latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness
feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think provides their happiness
didn’t feel love and approval from their parents
don’t love themselves
believe other people can’t or don’t love them
desperately seek love and approval
often seek love from people incapable of loving
believe other people are never there for them
equate love with pain
feel they need people more than they want them
try to prove they’re good enough to be loved
don’t take time to see if other people are good for them
worry about whether other people love or like them
don’t take time to figure out if they love or like other people
center their lives around other people
look to relationships to provide all their good feelings
lose interest in their own lives when they love
worry other people will leave them
don’t believe they can take care of themselves
stay in relationships that don’t work
tolerate abuse to keep people loving them
feel trapped in relationships
leave bad relationships and form new ones that don’t work either
wonder if they will ever find love

Poor Communication

Codependents frequently:

blame
threaten
coerce
beg
bribe
advise
don’t say what they mean
don’t mean what they say
don’t know what they mean
don’t take themselves seriously
think other people don’t take them seriously
take themselves too seriously
ask for what they want and need indirectly – sighing, for example
find it difficult to get to the point
aren’t sure what the point is
gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect
try to say what they think will please people
try to say what they think will provoke people
try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do
eliminate the word ‘no’ from their vocabulary
talk too much
talk about other people
avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings and thoughts
say everything is their fault
say nothing is their fault
believe their opinions doesn’t matter
wait to express their opinions until they know other people’s opinions
lie to protect and cover up for the people they love
lie to protect themselves
have a difficult time asserting their rights
have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly and appropriately
think most of what they have to say is unimportant
begin to talk in cynical, self-degrading or hostile ways
apologize for bothering people

Weak Boundaries

Codependents frequently:

say they won’t tolerate certain behaviors from other people
gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they never would
let others hurt them
keep letting people hurt them
wonder why they hurt so badly
complain, blame and try to control while they continue to stand there
finally get angry
become totally intolerant

Lack of Trust

Codependents often:

don’t trust themselves
don’t trust their feelings
don’t trust their decisions
don’t trust other people
try to trust untrustworthy people
think God has abandoned them
lose faith and trust in God

Anger

Many codependents:

feel very scared, hurt and angry
live with people who are scared, hurt and angry
are afraid of their own anger
are frightened of other people’s anger
think people will go away if anger enters the picture
think other people make them feel angry
are afraid to make other people feel anger
feel controlled by other people’s anger
repress their angry feelings
cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts
punish other people for making them angry
have been shamed for feeling angry
place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry
feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment and bitterness
feel safer with their anger than with hurt feelings
wonder if they’ll ever not be angry

Sex Problems

Some codependents:

are caretakers in the bedroom
have sex when they don’t want to
have sex when they’d rather be held, nurtured and loved
try to have sex when they’re angry or hurt
refuse to enjoy sex because they’re so angry at their partner
are afraid of losing control
have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed
withdraw emotionally from their partner
don’t talk about it
force themselves to have sex, anyway
reduce sex to a technical act
wonder why they don’t enjoy sex
lose interest in sex
make up reasons to abstain
wish their partner would die, go away or sense their feelings
have strong sexual fantasies about other people
consider or have an extramarital affair

Miscellaneous

Codependents tend to:

be extremely responsible
be extremely irresponsible
become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don’t require sacrifice
find it difficult to feel close to people
find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous
have an overall passive response to codependency — crying, hurt, helplessness
have an overall aggressive response to codependency — violence, anger, dominance
combine passive and aggressive responses
vacillate in decisions and emotions
laugh when they feel like crying
stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts
be ashamed about family, personal or relationship problems
be confused about the nature of the problem
not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn’t bad enough, or they aren’t important enough
wonder why the problem doesn’t go away


Progressive

In the later stages of codependency, codependents may

feel lethargic
feel depressed
become withdrawn and isolated
experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure
abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities
feel hopeless
begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in
think about suicide
become violent
become seriously emotionally, mentally or physically ill
experience an eating disorder
become addicted to alcohol and other drugs

cynical one

Going off-topic for a minute. Are you in a college town by any chance? I ask because a friends daughter was in a small college town and the sorority and fraternity kids looked down on the "townies". I had never heard that before and didn't much care for the attitude.

LoveMeNow

Yes, I am codependent. My behaviors and thinking were completely unacceptable. With an open and honest mind and heart, I finally accepted this as MY truth.

Today, I am a recovering Codie. I still have a long way to go but it's been a wonderful, insightful, personal journey. It has made me spiritually and emotionally stronger. I can't imagine a life that is not filled with personal growth any more, nor do I want to.

I am proud that I had the courage to change. I am proud to say and know.....what other people think of me is none of my business, that it is ok to say no, have firm boundaries and not accept unacceptable behavior because someone is "sick."

Ps. Last night, I had a recovering alcoholic friend tell me she was going to drink. We talked, I listened and I did give unsolicited advice. I accepted that I could not change the outcome and carried on with my business. I said a prayer and let it go. Today, she called to thanked me....she didn't drink but I know the thoughts are still there. I am here if she wants to talk, but unlike the past......I would of been in my car - thinking I could "rescue" her. Today, I know I am powerless. That said, I will never stop caring about people. I will not become cold and hard. I just won't make myself sick about things I have no control over. That's the big difference in my life and for that, I am grateful.

KariSue

I have been meaning to respond to this all day but kept getting interrupted.

That makes sense. I think it might take a bit longer than two months if there were children involved or more complicated if it is a son or daughter when mom and dad both have to (or at least should) try to be in agreement on what to do. I realize this was an example though.

Thanks, Kari

LoveMeNow

Also,......I have accepted that people, including my husband, have a right to live the way they choose and if that includes drugs and alcohol......then so be it. I have no right to expect any one to live the life *I* wanted, desired or even expected....for me, for them or for "us."

I, also, have a right to live a life that I want and desire for ((( Me ))). One that doesn't include addiction and that's ok too.

Learning this was a huge struggle but thankfully, I finally did. It has been amazingly freeing and empowering.

L0stH0pe

lol no over here across the pond we call a towny someone who has grown up in a town or major city instead of the more rural areas.

Ann

Incitingsilence, at my CoDA homegroup we used to read a shorter version of that description by Melody Beattie and even in recovery I am sometimes surprised to see many things on that list that I haven't quite mastered yet...progress not perfection.

I KNEW I was codependent when I allowed myself to be treated so badly, to be stolen from ,lied to, used as a place to stash my son's drugs and stolen property, and even more so by my own behaviour....thinking I could control anyone, thinking I could bring sanity to an insane situation, and thinking that if I just loved my son enough and supported his desire to be clean, even when he put no actions behind it. I KNEW I was codependent when I drove to a city an hour away to threaten to kick down a crackhouse door if my son didn't come out...well, that's codependent AND crazy.

At first I didn't understand what codependency was, but when I read about it and saw what was shown as "codependent behaviours" there wasn't a doubt in my mind that I was codependent.

Not everyone is. Some come here in crisis and when the crisis is over, they resume normal living. Some think they are codependent and find they get over it quickly and it's like the problem drinker who sets down the bottle and stops...were they alcoholic or simply problem drinkers? Either way, they stop and don't pick up again. Some just live in denial for years and years until they find their health failing and relationships falling apart all around them. Denial, to me, is simply ear plugs that don't change anything except our ability to learn a better way to live.

But hardcore codependents like me know who we are and it is threads like this that help set us on a good course. It is exactly this kind of information that brought me to recovery and a better way to live and I will always be grateful to those who went before me to set the path.

So thank you CO, and everyone here for sharing so freely "what codependents do".

And....I have to add and chuckle...at the normal dinner table discussion..."you have to turn yourself in for robbing that bank and pass the turnips please."

That's the best part here, the ability to laugh at ourselves.

L0stH0pe

i think im just going to hand a note to my shrink next week saying: "help im crazy, totally and utterly insane and i cant help myself but stepping onto that crazy train time and again" .. maybe hell take pity on me and either give me different meds or (better still) lock me up.. this is all sooooo confusing

i am codependent, im not, wait i AM, oh no im not.. maybe that in and of itself is a sign that i AM codependent

Praying

...and it doesn't matter. Who cares if you are it you're not?

Praying

Ok, darn"send" button.

I mean- work on what you want, become who you want to be, keep learning and growing. For a label, call yourself "gorgeous". Things always work out better when I do that.

Praying

While I'm at it I might as well post three times. Ann, you crack me up.

Kindeyes

Ann
Yes.....it is. In the depth of my fear and anguish, I had forgotten how to laugh. Learning how to laugh again (and I do love to laugh)......learning how to live in the moment.....and not take myself quite so seriously.......still is the very best part for me.
hugs
ke

KF85

I always feel if you can still laugh then there is still bright hope for yourself and your life. My grandma struggled with Alzheimer's for about 9 years. It was only in the last two weeks of her life when she really "gave up" and shut down that she lost her sense of humor. Until then it still shone through even as her mind slipped away.

incitingsilence

Many, many years ago in the very beginning, someone said to me and I didn’t even like them … I know that your husband is an addict, but what about you. You write and speak from this place to those who are that shows you know some things. At the time I never really looked at any label, hell I certainly wasn‘t codie, I had a list of I don‘t do‘s … even with those I respected telling me I needed to investigate that point, NOW, for my own best chances.

What I have come to find is I am me, and that is ok, especially with the background I have. It seems much more important to be myself, and find myself than be tagged with a label cause I surely have more than one and I suspect we all do, including gorgeous! Yeah I went bat **** codie crazy, in my defense it was all heroin’s fault … Heroin was to blame to that I started drinking again, oh and then I was even more bat **** crazy, but felt much better <rolling eyes>

It happens, you don’t get a free pass. Some walk in already there, raised in dysfunction as children that they carry into adulthood. It is normal to them, because it is all they know … for others it is so subtle just like it is for those addicted to drugs that they think they are just fine, when they aren’t. The thing is if you don’t investigate then you don’t know. Anyone living with an addict is at risk just as anyone living with physical or mental abuse is. It is progressive and it will lead to that last line of that checklist and you most certainly don’t have to hit anywhere near all the lines above in behaviors. You wear out in time and your health suffers physically, mentally and emotionally.

So rejoice in who you are...

Maybe Ann can make one of her famous cheesecakes so we can celebrate being ok with who we are, even if we are a bit FUBAR at times… ( love that acronym!)

Vale

Ann's cheesecakes are the best!

But no one knows better than Ann that if you feed all the stray cats,
all you get are MORE stray cats.

........so we 'gotta find a way to look LESS like stray cats......

....I dunno.....wear embroidered collars? Get a little fatter?

L0stH0pe

instead of boarding the crazy train (luckily the ticket inspector is still in bed sleeping off his high).. i might try and achieve that look in order to set myself apart from all those stray cats