Lily1918

He agrees with the serenity prayer and the 12 steps, but has different views on tough love. He told me yesterday that at meetings of course you are supposed to take what you need and leave the rest, and with the big book too, but never ever with the Bible. He then gave me some verses that really amazed me. Of course if there's violence involved sure, go no contact, and the choice is all mine, but we talked for hours and he told me all kinds of stories about his experiences with addiction throughout his life. . I walked away feeling amazed and weakened in myself and empowered by the light in me . I knohere w many will disagree but I had to share

Katiekate

Hi lily, can you elaborate a little.

I'm very interested in what he said.

Taking5

Lily, there is a Christians in Recovery forum here that you may want to check out as well. Lots of good folks there.

Shining~Again

chiming in on please tell more Lily. My pastor is similar in his approach but we haven't spoken about why for so many years that I only remember it being a combo of him being ACOA (hope that was acronym) and how he was trained, so to speak, in counseling members of his congregation. Am all ears

Lily1918

ok well he reminded me Of 70x7 with forgiveness. That love covers over all wrongs. if someone steals your jacket, give them your shirt also. Never allow them to live in sin in your home with no repentance , but if they ask you to fill a legit need, like food or etc, then fill it and don't even judge what they will do, because God sees us all as filthy equally, and loves us just the same. Love keeps no record of wrongs. He said basically always ask yourself wwjd? if you read the synopsis or are familiar with les miserables its like that. Javert is tough love, the priest is Gods.

Lily1918

I can give you the references to the verses if you want, but I imagine that many won't like this thread.

MIRecovery

At the end of the day it only boils down to, "Are you sober." It is a God of my understanding or his or yours. There is nothing wrong with questioning as long as it is moving you toward sobriety

tjp613

When I allow my line of thinking to move in that direction, I remember that I could be "forgiving" my son "70x7" right into his grave.

My 'tough love' has nothing to do with forgiveness or worry about losing my "things". My tough love has only one objective: to help motivate my son to get sober and lead a full, rich life.

zoso77

It's not your pastor's recovery. It's yours.

sojourner

Lily1918: What are your thoughts about your pastor's advice to give an active addict food and ask no questions?

May I carry it a step further. What if you buy your addict $20 worth of food, so now he takes the $20 he did have and uses it to buy $20 worth of drugs?

allforcnm

My pastor felt the same way Lily. I tend to agree with him on most of it actually. I have never got involved with al/nar anon because it didn’t work for me personally. I did work with a private therapist and that helped me. I also have trouble with tough love past a certain point because although it helps some, it hurts just as many from the research Ive done.

I read an interesting book a while back on “kind love” and there is an article on it that I just posted here on the forum. The author Dr. Gabor Mate has several books, they are all good reads…. It is also very enlightening, and it is good to know also that “tough love” is only one method being used out in the real world; there are many approaches to treating addiction, and many approaches used by family members to restore balance in their lives. You get to pick what works for you !!

Link to article: Treating Addiction: A Top Doc Explains Why Kind Love Beats Tough Love | TIME.com

LoveMeNow

I know my church won't promote AA or NA because of the use of the words "Higher Power" and that Jesus can not be honored. We have an Overcomer's for Christ group which deals with issues of all addiction. I even heard my Pastor, a man I love and admire, say once he didn't like the slogan "Let go and Let God." I was shocked and kind of disappointed at first. I was going to go talk to him about it but then I just decided I didn't care if he liked it or not. It was just his opinion and not a Biblical teaching as far as I was concerned.

We have a few recovery addicts in my church that have sustained sobriety through their walk and faith in the Lord. They try to live by God's words and only His words. (including abstaining from premarital sex). Some would say they traded one addiction for another - the new one being the Lord. I say whatever works.

ETA - I now many Christians who prefer Celebrate Recovery over AA or Alanon because it is a 12 step program that is faithed based.

Lily1918

that's what I asked him!!!!! Im not saying he's right, but he said if I only had enough food for me and the children then don't go without obviously, but if I have extra laying around then give it, and trust and know that if he's gonna use he's gonna use. That's not for me to judge.

I was like w-o-a buddy. That's crazy.

Lily1918

I brought this up and he smiled and said exactly. because you could also tough love and break contact and he will still be in the grave. Our response whether kind or tough are for us to maintain sanity, we can't keep them or anyone even ourselves out of the grave.

and I was like o_O and you were an addictions counsellor before you entered ministry!?!?!
yelling at him and he said " yup for 15 years" which is why I met with him in the first place

greeteachday

I have a difficult time with equating Alanon or Naranon with so called "tough love." When I attended Naranon I worked on me. I learned a lot about compassion and gained an understanding that my daughter wasn't doing anything "to" me. Naranon and working the steps helped me realize that I was trying to control others; judged others and had a misguided belief that my way was the "right" way. Working my program helped me...it wasn't about being tough on my child.

Kindeyes

Greeteachday
I've been struggling with a way to say that and you did it beautifully. Thank you for expressing my sentiments regarding Nar-Anon so well. There seems to be a misconception that is being propagated by some folks that Nar-Anon promotes "tough love"..........that's a fallacy.
gentle hugs
ke

Lily1918

which is why I still went to my meeting tonight. Im glad I did, its true what they say "go until you like it. Celebrate Recovery is also good, but everywhere I work my program whether its here, with the pastor, or in group Im trying to learn to take what I need and leave the rest. I value all of your wisdom, and am so glad for all of you who share it with me.

Lily1918

This really helped me. thank you :ghug3

Kindeyes

And that's just plain smart! Good for you! I often equate my recovery with gold mining.....I have to dig through a whole lot of dirt to find a few gold nuggets!

gentle hugs
ke

h00ped

Here's just a little food for thought, there are examples in the Bible where Christians are instructed to be discerning and exercise discipline when people are taking advantage of others' generosity and hard work. They were idling and expecting the lovingness of others to pull their weight.

2 Thessalonians 3:6-15 (NIV)

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

11 We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12 Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat. 13 And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.

14 Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.

In this passage, food etc was a legit need, but the ones who were not pulling their weight were not just given and given some more. "Do not associate with them, so they may be ashamed" is tough love, it's done in love to motivate people to take responsibility for themselves, and also to protect others from being continually burdened by others' lack of responsibility. In other words, stop enabling irresponsibility and selfishness.

"But don't treat them like an enemy" ensures that the boundaries are held but not taken to extreme.

I don't think what your pastor was saying is bad, it's just that there are extremes - extreme "tough love" and extreme enabling. Somewhere in the middle lies what is loving/compassionate, but for some it will be more on the extreme tough love end if the person is a danger to you or others (violence, for example).