outtolunch

" No" is a complete sentance.

When we say " No, because ......." we create the invitation to be manipulated and the negotiation has begun.

lesliej

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ed-denial.html thanks ODAT...great read!

Kindeyes

Absolutely! And when we try to defend ourselves in any way from the fear, obligation, guilt...but most specifically the blame.....we have also created an invitation to them. It's an almost instant A HA....for them when we say "but I DO love you....how can you even SAY that I don't love you?" or anything else for that matter.

We control OUR reactions......we do not control the addicts actions. We can change OUR script.....and often "no" is the only thing that needs to be said. It's amazing how two little letters can sometimes be so difficult to say.

Go back.....re-read the script but insert "NO" in the first response that C makes. And watch the conversation come to a screeching halt.....or it will escalate as A realizes that C has finally set a firm boundary. The addict will escalate the behavior (and fear, obligation, guilt and blame) tactics until C steps back into the script.

It's just how it works.

gentle hugs
ke

inpieces314

I agree, the C has to stand firm.

The A will try and try to break the C's resolve. But the C has to be the bigger person.

It sucks, but C has to come before A or A will destroy C.

KelleyF

Thank you for your post as you have brought to light one of the things that I believe. That is MOST addicts do feal guilt, remorse, love, fear, sadness.... They are not setting out to put us in a FOG. Besides that; no one can put us in anything really can they?

It seems to me that the C' also has to look at themselves in these situations because it is not our place to dictate their recovery. It is not up to us to choose AA or NA for them in place of another type of treatment / ongoing therapy. Its not up to us to be angry because they do this, or wont do that....

All we really have to worry about is the end result of their choices, and how it affects their overall behavior, their personal relationship with us, and the responsibillities that they have towards their family.... at least that is what I think.

And at the end of all that the C' has a choice; and its all theirs to own.

Kindeyes

Exactly....um.....but just like A, C can't own what they can't even see. Unfortunately, that is the problem with C. Often C is naive or in denial or simply has a heart bigger than all outdoors. They are reacting to A's behavior and manipulation.....to their own detriment and perhaps most unfortunately, to the detriment of A.

Of course C has the right to be as angry as they want to be. Anger sometimes is the only thing that removes the veil of denial. If A has cheated on C, stolen from C, verbally, emotionally and psychologically abused C.....C has every reason to be angry. Anger is often the catalyst that spurs action. Action to seek help. Action to stop reacting. Action to leave. Action to do anything other than doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result.

Terminal uniqueness is a condition that can be suffered by either the A or the C. "I'm special because______________" Fill in the blank.....I'm more educated, I'm smarter, I'm not like those other C's or A's out there. But there is one thing that is remarkably similar between most of us.......we're caught in unhealthy relationships with someone we love very deeply......and it's incredibly hard to see past the love we have for the A.

There is no question of whether or not the A's are suffering. Of course they are. The question is........should C continue to allow himself/herself be manipulated with fear, obligation, guilt (or blame)? Often C's suffering is much more intense than A's because A is medicated.....while C is trying to manage this suffering stone cold sober.

And I'm not suggesting that C should leave A. I am merely suggesting that we look at our interactions and recognize what we are feeling during those interactions and change the dialogue. That is within each of our power.

Interesting to hear different perspectives but let's try to keep the focus on C. Recognizing our own behavior patterns can be difficult at best. We focus on C because that's who most of us are here in this particular forum......and that's whose behavior/reactions we C's have control of....our own.

gentle hugs
ke

Ann

I'm loving your thread, Kindeyes

Anytime my son began his dialog with "I swear this is true...blah blah blah" or "I couldn't make this stuff up...blah blah blah" or my favourite "You're never going to believe what happened...blah blah blah", I KNEW he was fabricating some tiring story to extort guilt and money from me. At least he was consistant.

I know it's sad how we all fell for this. But it is fun to look back and laugh at ourselves.

And we all KNOW there is a handbook out there somewhere, where active addicts can search for the story of the day, or how to steal checks by taking them from the middle of the check book...and you're right, anyone who thinks they are unique just needs to hang around long enough and they'll find out that the similarities become obvious over time.

Hugs to you for bringing me my daily smile.

KelleyF

((kindeyes))

Just wanted to clarify this statement of mine that you quoted:

"Its not up to us to be angry because they do this, or wont do that...."

I meant this in context of our trying to control their recovery process. Monitoring their meeting or step work if they do this, or trying to persuade them to adopt one form of treatment vs another; even if we strongly believe it will help them. That choice I feel is theirs alone to make. Their recovery or lack of depends on their choices.

My statement here:
"All we really have to worry about is the end result of their choices, and how it affects their overall behavior, their personal relationship with us, and the responsibillities that they have towards their family.... at least that is what I think."

What I was saying is yes, we have the right to be angry or express any other emotion in regards to how their behavior affects us or the family.
So lying to your face, stealing, cheating, etc. Those things are directed at us and absolutely there should be emotion attached to this.
And the C' gets to decide where that emotion leads.

Great thread; I agree. Just saw it today.

inpieces314

As much as my addict boyfriend/ex/whatever he is right now has hurt me, I know one thing.

I may be codependent on him, but he is codependent on me.

I am not an addict. I can see this. He acts exactly the same way I do, when he is sober. It's almost funny, because it's like looking in a mirror. Is that what I act like?

No, our relationship is nowhere near healthy, and even if there were no addictions (I had a drug problem years ago, I got out before it became an addiction, but I am not going to lie, I have done my own share of drinking this past week because I do it when I get angry) we would have a ton of problems. I guess this is how we deal with it, becoming codependent on each other.

It will never work, because I realize it, and he doesn't. I can only work on myself, and hope he wakes up before he dies.

bluebelle

My RABF tells me now that he knew he was being manipulative. He said that even when he denied it to me, he really could see it. It was just that the drug was his best friend, so it was all about the drug.

The addicts in my life are extremely manipulative. I like how you said that you have to just say, "No," because otherwise they will come at you will all kinds of stuff. My AM and ASD both have this incredible ability to manipulate people and stories. They will manipulate what you say so much that it confuses you.

It's because of this manipulative behavior that I some times had to just let go. I can't have some kind of endless manipulative conversation. So, I had to learn to set boundaries for myself. I had to learn to say, "No." I had to learn tha tit was o.k. to let the call go to VM. I didn't have to listen to everything. I didn't have to participate in the insanity.

I'm not saying that I don't ever get pulled back in, because I certainly do. Things will happen--crises--that are pretty much created by the addicts in my life, and I sometimes find myself responding and trying to analyze and fix the problem.

I am very thankful for this website and posts like this to help me keep things in perspective.

SadHeart

I feel shame for my failures and faults in life, but I don't use. Shame does not cause usage. Decision to use causes usage.

You can only talk for yourself, you can't talk for me, nor dismiss anything I say as '...you don't want to admit it...".

Codependants of course have the choice to walk away both from their codependencies AND their addicts.

Addicts have the choice to walk away too, both from their addictions and their codependents. The only difference between an addict who uses and an addict who's been clean for 20 years is...choice. The addict who is clean made a choice. Everyone who's ever broken free of an addiction made a choice to. Every codie who ever shook off the shackles of codependency made the choice.

Some addicts never make the choice to get and stay clean. Some codies never make the choice either. But those who do, all are still stuck with their demons--codies and addicts alike.

I could flip your words around on you and say, "Whether you want to admit it or not, all addicts do have the choice to walk away, just as all codies do..."

But no one can speak for another that way. You do not have superior knowledge of what anyone else should be admitting, nor do I.

Nobody said it was easy for either codies or A's. It's a shame we allow them to hurt us while they hurt themselves, and it's a shame they allow us to hurt them with our enabling as we hurt ourselves with their addictions. Addicts are addicted to their DOC, codies are addicted to someone else's addiction.

The addict's problem is not that there are codies to exploit, and if the codies would all just disappear so would the addicts' problems. An A is still an A even if a codie's not around. It's like flipping it around and saying: That's the problem: codies can't be dependent and enabling if all the DOCs are are gone.

Take away all the DOCs, and A's will still be A's, they'll just use food or exercise or sleeping or something else to get their fix. Take away all the A's and codies will still be codies, only their neurosis will focus on something else too: cleaning house, or hoarding, or exercise or sleeping or something else to get their fix.

Codies and DOCs have the same problem, just expressed in two different ways. That's why they mesh so nicely and always find each other.

And the only way for either to solve the problem is by choosing to stop the unhealthy behavior.

inpieces314

I think it is so nice that you decided to pick me out of everyone here and totally tear apart all of the things that I have said. I really appreciate it, it really made my day.

Kindeyes

No matter how we look at it.....A and C both have problems. Part of my problem has been that when I look at the A in my life, I see a tiny baby, a laughing little boy, an inquisitive growing child, a loving preteen.....a rebellious teenager, an angry young man, an addict who is now involved in dealing and stealing.

That is a huge part of my problem. I keep seeing the person who use to be there.

My therapist brought something up that I thought was very interesting. She said that she believes that initially someone begins to use drugs to have fun or self medicate, they suffer from guilt/shame.....but eventually that guilt/shame isn't performing it's intended function. Eventually they are doing things that are immoral, illegal, unethical, cruel....things that would overwhelm them with guilt and shame......if they didn't disassociate.

Drug addiction is a progressive disease. Some of us are dealing with A's who are in the early stages of addiction.....others of us may be dealing with a late stage addict who is so deeply emeshed in the lifestyle that is darker than any of us can relate to. It's a lifestyle that scares the living crap out of me. So someone who is experiencing the early stages of addiction may not be able to relate to someone who has seen the very, very deep and dark side of it. But remember......those who are experiencing the deep and dark stage may have already experienced the early stage. And it can be like watching a train wreck.

Just like addiction creeps up on the addict....codependency can creep up on us. We are totally oblivous to what is happening to the A and to us initially. If only we could recognize it before it spirals out of control.......but alas.....that doesn't happen. We see the good in them. We see the light of their humanity. We see the person we know they can be.

We all can choose recovery. A and C.......both have problems. The bottomline issue is that we can't change anybody else. We can't make A stop doing the things that A does. We can only change our part of the script. There is no comparing who's "he77" is worse.....A's or C's. It's an irrelevant discussion.....and only serves to emphasize our own part in the play.

I've heard it said that religion is for people who don't want to go to he77, spirituality is for people who've been there. As far as I'm concerned, A and C are both in a living hell until one of them decides they don't want to stay there.

We CAN change OUR script.

gentle hugs
ke

lesliej

disassociate...its a very powerful term, my ex and I spoke of this, and with his therapist as well. he is also bi polar, and although he medicates for it if he uses he exacerbates it and skips meds for a few days during the binge...

so there are a lot of swings possible, into the land of mr. hyde
and I was in love with dr. jekyll

the problem is the script gets switched; one script is the one I wanted to live with, but every 3, 6 or 9 months a stand in actor would show up with the wrong script

I had to get out because I realized I was starting rehearsals for "one flew over the cuckoos nest" and I don't want that kind of script for my life

shockozulu

Every so often I read something that says what I feel so perfectly I wish I had said it myself. This is one of those times.

By the time I actually find myself doing sanity checks with a third person just to make sure I'm still sane, I knew things were out of my control.

Thank goodness I knew who would be there if I turned my life over to God as I understood him or I would have been certifiable by now.

bluebelle

Yay!! Good for you!! This is how I feel after growing up with an AM (and an absent AF). It's a good way to put it. I don't want that script, getting off the rollercoaster ride, etc. It all shows that we can make the choice to live a peaceful existance if we choose.