TomsGirl

Time everyone tells the big troubles alcohol causes, Our congress both state and US should be made aware, they worry about every other little health problem.

Clancy46 posted this in another thread. Rather than hijack that one I thought it deserved its own thread. What's your opinion?

Mine is that those of us who love and live with an A are an invisible mass of people to the government. And I got the title for the thread because many times that's the way I am made to feel by the legal/law/justice system in general. Guilty by association. I'm not the alcoholic driver, I'm not the one who has violated probation. Am I guilty because you send the A home and they violate their probation conditions while they're in the same house with me? I'm not his keeper!!! Yet when he fails I'm made to feel like I failed ... or did she help him fail?

AA and Al Anon could be a great lobbying group for both A's and their loved ones but they have no interest in getting politically involved. MADD hates our A's so there certainly is no sympathy for us. To them the only victims of alcoholism are those that the A hits with their car. We're not victims yet very often we who live with the A are the ones who end up having to face those other victims in the court house lobbies. We're the ones who apologize. We're the ones who get the brunt of their scorn. Well I'm sorry but I am as much a victim as the man my husband ran head on into. Yet I have no voice. I have no organization that screams for justice for me! Yes, I can leave the A. I can banish them from my life. I can just throw them away. Policiticans pay so much lip service to the homeless issue. I just laugh and shake my head at it all.

We who live with and love an A are an invisible multitude of people. We pay our taxes, work our jobs, raise our children. We come to places like SR and to meetings like Al Anon to release the pressure that's within ourselves so that we don't end up exploding all over the walls. Yet so often I feel like I'm screaming in the wilderness ... I don't want to walk around with a big "V" on my sleve for "victim", but please, stop making me feel like I'm guilty ... guilty by association.

equus

I think labels for an illness or disease, even a behaviour are fine. Labels for people are not.

I believe that if this bottom line was altered the rest would see change - just as it has done with multiple other groups.

Think of all the people labels, think where historically they lead, think how they alter our way of thinking. They spread and take hold, labels for people do NOT give rise to respect, caring, empathy, and fairness. Labels are easily campaigned against, made to look unhuman, less than human, not quite so equal, different, outside, feared.

Yes, I do feel a sense of 'by association...' and I'm thankful because it gives me far more peace inside than to remain 'unassociated'.

TomsGirl

The other day in court, what upset me the most was that my husband wouldn't look at me. I didn't know why. Was it guilt, blame, anger? I later found out that he was told by the court officers NOT to look at me. I was the only person in that place that loved him. Yes, I knew why he was there and I didn't disagree with what the courts ruled and the punishment he received. But I wanted him to look at me so that in the midst of all this terrible unpleasantness I wanted him to see that I still loved him as I hadn't had any communications with him since he was arrested. Also, him looking at me would have been beneficial for me! I needed that silent communication with him too yet it was denied me! I behaved very well in court through it all. Yet I was punished too. It would have been one thing if his lawyer had warned that I was angry and upset regarding the whole thing. But I was advocating for his being sent to rehab jail. I didn't want them to release him back to me. I just wanted to be able for us to look at each other. I so wanted him to know that I still loved him.

mallowcup

He knows that. He may not realize right now that thisis love in action. It had to be soooooo painful. I think you might really be saying you needed him to look at you so that you could see he still loves you. The courts aren't tough to be mean. By instructing him not to look at you, the court was probably trying to make sure you weren't intimidated. This isn't over, his recovery is just starting. When there is time for you, time will be made. Right now, I promise you absence makes the heart gorwn fonder. The interventions made today may be the ones that enbable him to hold his grandchild. He can't be anything to you right now. Time will bring clarity. I'm sure your moods will be all over the map. Take this one step at a time and internalize each step. Keep coming here. We've all been to court. We've all been scared to death. We all love our alcoholics with all our hearts.

denny57

I am not big on government interference (we can see how well prohibition worked), but I believe, like everything else, it will be helpful if people become educated and informed. As I shared info with my friends and family about AH and what it meant to be an alcoholic, they were all very willing to listen and learn because they love him so much. These are educated, well informed people who had no idea what it meant to be alcoholic. And, of course, we find out how many people have had their lives touched by the disease. In my line of work I can try to make a difference and I have started down that path. I am exploring the best route - one shot documentary or educational series. I do think education has to start with the removal of the stigma. I have seen first hand that this can work on a one to one basis.

Interesting thread. Thanks.

Zoey

My point is ,the Government here in the US is going to fix all our health problems, tax twinkies, fat foods, etc etc. They are death on cig, yet they very much need and want the tax money and keep adding the taxes and call it a sin tax.
Actually the people that care about an alcoholic gets so emotionally torn apart, we are on anti-depresants, smoke too much, eat due to stress, yet no one calls alcohol a sin as they do smoking.
For some that do not find Al-Anon how many are susicides by overdose of pills, car accidents etc??? Or die young of stress caused heart attacks. I do wonder about this???

Equus you talked over my head on this one??

I know what I said was off topic, just hard not to feel alcohol is a big health problem.

I just had to share what a Gov'mt worker in DC said, about writing a bill to ban alcohol in bars and resturants. Why not??? Smokers are killing people, so they think, no proof, they see smoke, but don't see what goes on behind closed doors in a home with an alcoholic.

No I do not believe in labels either.
What would it be called when people have never loved a child or parent or spouse of an alcoholic and they shake their head at us who do. Easy for them to say, "you are crazy to stay, why would anyone stay??"
I too feel we are judged by those that haven't been there.
Guess hard for me to say what I mean.

denny57

Clancy46 I hear you. And that's my thought process, too. So much I read is about how A is a "family disease." So my thinking is educate, educate and bring the reality of it out into the open. I remain (maybe) surprised that so many people still see A as a character/moral problem. IMO that perception has to change before anything else happens. Thanks.

TomsGirl

Clancy46, not off topic at all! That's just the sort of responses I was looking for when I started this thread. Here in Mass there is a sin tax on alcohol too as well as cigs. Of course cigs are second hand smoke. That's why they are banned. But the perception on alcohol is that if you want to drown yourself in it, it doesn't hurt the guy standing next to you. Unless of course you then get into your car while drunk and mow him down. So we don't address the drinking itself, just the functions we attempt to perform while under the influence. Sad to say it but I have to laugh ... Mass has newer, tougher DUI laws and believe me, those new laws will make the person who goes to a party and has a few too many more willing to give up his/her car keys. But my husband is proof that a tougher dui law alone will not inhibit the true chronic A. The jails will just get fuller ... the A's will behave in jail and get released early for good behavior ... and they will come home ... to us ...

The cigarette companies have been made to pay millions to support stop smoking programs, cig smoking health programs, etc. I wouldn't mind seeing the alcohol industry being made to pay to guarantee that there were alcohol support programs, rehab programs, in patient and out patient, that were free to all that needed them and available in all parts of the country no matter how remote the location may be. My husband had to become incarcerated to get a real long-term rehab program courtesy of the state. His 11-day stint of in-patient did only one thing. It kept him from getting his hands on a drink for 11 days. Chaining him up inside our house would have done the same thing ... and it would have cost a lot less.

My husband had to submit to random urine tests for drugs and alcohol. They gave him a color and he had to call in everyday to see what the color of the day was. Well alkies are given colors that aren't called too often. They are more interested in catching the illegal drug users. So again, I have to shake my head and laugh. If they had called his color (which they NEVER did), they would have caught him drinking on the sly a lot sooner as alcohol stays in you system for 48 hours. May not be enough to be caught by a breathalizer, but it would show up in a urine test. Yes, prohibition didn't work but that was because alcohol was being denied to everyone. But legally denying it to those that are addicted to it, I don't have a problem with that. Yet my AH I know has gone into a package store totally s-faced and bought booze. And I'm sure as he leaves they say "Come back again and have a nice day". Hmmmm...I wonder if illegal drug dealers say that to their regular customers too?

ASpouse

Such is life and circumstances living with an alcoholic. If he was told not to look at you, then he did the right thing.

If you need to be angry, be angry at him for putting himself in this situation in the first place. You can't be angry at the courts or lawyers, or perhaps I should say you shouldn't be. If you are well then you are.

I look at it this way, if he had done what he was supposed to do originally, none of this would have happened and you would not have to be going through this, right?

What has happened is called "consequences for his actions" and it's about time he's had to suffer them don't you think? He did know what the consequences would be if he didn't follow the rules didn't he?

I'm sure he knows you still love him.

JessicaNAJ

I too have wondered why the government doesn't ban alcohol. It has been come such a growing problem in our city. Smoking is banned in most restaurants and they are now working on laws to ban smoking in public outdoor patios. How is smoking more dangerous than getting drunk in public? You can't smoke at the Bengals/Reds games, but you sure can get drunk and drive away.



OH WAIT.....I know why, because all the law makers like their "drink" too. Wonder how many of them smoke?

TomsGirl

Judy, my post wasn't talking about him. It was talking about me.

What has happened is called "consequences for his actions" and it's about time he's had to suffer them don't you think?

Very true, I couldn't agree more. But what this thread is discussing is how we, the ones who share a life with an A are subjected to disrespect, disregard, etc whether it be from the legal system, dui victims, or just the public in general. This thread is concentrating on me, us. Isn't that what you're always advocating here Judy? Forget "them" and think about "us"? Damned if I do and damned if I don't I guess.

ASpouse

I'm sorry ..... didn't mean to derail. I have nothing to add about government stuff re drinking etc. If it's legal, then I think whoever wants to do it should.

Making liquor illegal won't work ...... remember prohibition in the 20's? People are urged to drink responsibly by the liquor companies, same with smoking. I think it is ludicrous that people can sue and get money because someone died from lung cancer caused by smoking. It's a choice to smoke or drink ..... both are legal and both come with warning labels or at best a warning and recommendation to use it responsibly.

Drugs are illegal, but there are probably more junkies and addicts than ever before. If there's money to be made, people will find a way to make it. If an addict needs drugs, they will find a way to get them.

The key is to teach our children, the youngest ones about the dangers of drinking, smoking and drugging. They are our future, they are the ones that will change the laws someday.

BigSis

Consequences for actions get many As sober.
Consequences for enabling/rescuing/loving As get many of us to Alanon.

There are no soft landings. And not everyone makes it... not the As who continue to go back out and damage every thing around them; and sometimes not the Anons who leave only to find another A and continue the chaos.

Pick a number... call it 10% of the population is impacted by alcoholism. That means 10% of doctors, 10% of lawyers, 10% of politicians, 10% of law enforcement. There is no "they" in government... it is "we".

I can make a difference every time I welcome someone new around the tables. I can carry the message of hope by leaving some pamphlets with my physician to pass out to patients, by doing the same with my attorney, and by writing thoughtful letters to my state legislator.

It don't believe it will be big sweeping actions that change our society's perception, but over time, it might be the smaller ones of showing loving acceptance of not only the alcoholic, but acceptance of the consequences for them... and deciding if we want those consequences for us.

TomsGirl

I was a juror on a drug trial years ago. The accused's mother was a witness for him. It was obvious to us, the jury, that she was lying for him so that he wouldn't be sent to jail. But she did say "My son is sick. He needs help.". I didn't know it then but I know now she was what we call an "enabler". As for my AH's court proceedings, I wish the judge had asked for me to speak. I would have freely said that I believed my AH needed a long stint in rehab and that sending him to the rehab jail was a good thing since the private insurance I had was in no way going to allow anything close to what he really needed. I just needed to have a voice there that day. They allow victims to speak in regards to an individuals punishment. Ask me if I could handle him being released and sent home. But they don't and if you don't then please, DON'T make me feel like some sort of criminal, conspirator, whatever, when they fail.

As an aside, my AH's phoney story for why he blew a positve was that he had just tasted some marinade he had made that contained cooking sherry. Yeah, nobody bought that story. But the judge made this statement "If the cooking sherry has alcohol in it, just having it in the house could be considered a violation. None of that should be around." Well judge, I purchased that cooking sherry and brought it into my home. Hmmmm ... guess I gotta work on my "jailer" skills.

PS. The Nyquill he drank a few weeks ago ... I bought that too.

equus

That was what my reply was aimed at. Yes I agree people should take the consequences of their actions but if they are seen as something less than an equal human being that has a tendency to extend to those who associate with them.

The flip side is to choose who we spend our time with based on the worth WE give them and to value the opportunity we have to stand alongside.

I first learned this as a kid - our cafe was the tea shop for homeless guys - and the doss house!! The result was I knew most of them and was too young to have begun labelling and ranking people. I respected my elders, like all kids especially those who gave me sweets!! In infant school (under 7 years) running down the hill after school my friends were throwing stones at a 'tramp'. I chose, I chose who I associated with - childishly by thumping anyone I could catch!!

I grew up where racism was rife, I chose again, I did as I wished. I watched Ghandi at that time and all I knew was that I would rather be standing next to anyone dehumanised than calling names - for me, for my sanity, for my peace of mind. Only we don't always get the chance so when it comes along I'm grateful for it. Sometimes I need to remind myself of that, especially when I get slapped with a bad attitude (like one of my old bosses saying 'well that's life with an addict'), it took a while for me to realise whatever I felt, I felt alongside many others and I'd rather be stood where I am than anywhere else.

I will continue to choose WHO I spend time with - whatever I pay by association I will remind myself to pay it willingly. We get so few chances.

That's how I make peace with it, and one by one, person by person it's the only way I know to fix it also. Just be and if there is prejudice, still just be - when life sticks us on the sharp end of prejudice, then that's when we learn the most.

I just haven't a clue if not that way. It's all I can do, it might be an odd way to look at it but that's how I see it.

mallowcup

That sounds nice. I will not make an alcoholics inabilty or lack of desire to stop drinking my failure, I have no real desire to change the worlds perception of an alcoholic, I want them to let me scratch out my own little life living around one with the dignity I deserve. That may sound harsh. There are too many parts of life that we can't control when living with an alcoholic. I must maintain control over what I can. I am certain that Gods plan for my life is not to craddle an alcoholic through the denial, the debt, the infidelities. I did not only speak vows, I heard vows spoken to me. Every person draws their own line and they must be allowed to reach a limit without feeling like someone elses drinking is their failure.

TomsGirl

I just haven't a clue if not that way. It's all I can do, it might be an odd way to look at it but that's how I see it.

No Eq, not odd but a very healthy way to look at it. My husband's actions don't shame me and even though I'm treated like I'm guilty I don't feel guilty. I love him and I don't look at my husband as an alcoholic human being but as a human being who suffers from alcoholism. For those who will listen, I try to educate. For those with closed minds, like my husband's parents, they are not part of our life. Gets back to the issue of keeping those that are "toxic" away from us.

Zoey

I read a phamplet years ago by someone that researched prohibition, also Ted Kopel had a program about prohabition. Both said prohibition worked. It did back then, but because most people were law abiding. If law said no, then it was no for most. Yes, the rebels and alcoholics found the speak easy's and bootleggers, but most men were home mowing the law and playing with the kids etc. Alcohol wasn't as easy for kids to get, now just find an older kid, or some adult that thinks drinking is cool and no problem. Those that wanted in on the money wanted bars and liquor stores, so make it legal and get some taxes too.
Also now days it seems to be the thing to break every law. I don't wear my seat belt around town as I feel that shouldn't be a law for those over 18.
Some prone to be alcoholics just never drank back in those days, as it was against the law. Now it is just the in thing for everyone. Thats where I went, to the bars , because thats where everyone fun went.
Our grandparents pitched horseshoes and had a great time and drank ice tea.
Played soft ball with not a drink in sight.
I am so thankful that most people cannot become alcoholic.
Just my thoughts

Pick-a-name

I have to say; WHY is it there absolutely no recourse for families whose lives are being destroyed ( if even only financially) in the judicial system? AH is "criminally/chemically insane" as far as I am concerned because since he still (how much longer, I do not know)is able to afford an attorney (who himself will benefit financially from this) he is legally able to walk away from his family and really not need to pay anything for our children and will probably result in both him AND me loosing everything we have worked for and saved for all our lives. Why? Because no one cares (or knows what it means) that he is an alcoholic. (My attorney chose not to mention it for MY protection.?) (For the record, AH's family and business partners are also worried by his "judgement" these past few years; but no one can say anything to change it because of "privacy rights",etc. I imagine if a person who has certain mental illnesses, and who knows if AH is bipolar,etc; they are legally able to destroy themselves and others,too. It is a sad,sad thing.)

I guess AH is still "too functional" to be a "bad alcoholic". (code for still has something to loose beside his life) (Is there a "good alcoholic, I have often wondered?)

I am not sure what would help this, but I know something should be done.

I have known people that had plenty of legal bills, ramifications, etc stemming from a statement (recanted,another story) where there was all kinds of investigation,etc for a non-problem.....that still continues IF the "cause" is on the social radar.

Alcoholism is treated as a non-problem; via ignoragnce,I think. Maybe it is too close to "home" for some law-makers; maybe people think it is one too many cocktails at a party and silly behavior and a "mean, stick-in-the-mud-spouse" who can't give the guy a break to have some fun once in a while. I do not know, but I find it to be a severe problem of neglect. This gets me upset, so I will stop here.

Talk about "an Old Boy Network"....that is what it feels like to me.

TomsGirl

Here's something that's been on my mind in regards to my husband that is appropriate for this thread. My husband has been sentenced to rehab jail. They are waiting for a bed to open for him. Once he goes there he will need changes of clothing, I'm sure other personal things like toothbrush, razor, etc. Now, I am the one who will be providing those things. I know I would certainly appreciate it if I got something in the mail that would explain to me what he needs, what's allowed, not allowed, when I can bring it, hell even WHERE I can bring it as I don't have a clue other than it's in Sprinfield, as to where this place is. All they have to do is ask him who, if anyone, will be doing this for him. I could even get the stuff there BEFORE he is physically transferred. I could have done it this weekend. But no, chances are they will bring him there and expect HIM to tell me what's what and all under the assumption that he is capable of telling me exactly what's what. And if he's not, or forgets something, or doesn't get it quite right, who will get stuck holding the proverbial bag? Springfield isn't around the corner from me. But that's ok. My time and energy is ok to waste and why is it ok to waste? Hell woman, you're associated with an A. If you don't like the hassle then you can always "throw" him away ...

PS. I'm sure some caring group of some sort provides for those who have no one. Maybe I should tell my husband to say he has no one. Isn't it all just a kick in the ass.

PPS. Please, no responses to this with the likes of "Your enabling. Don't do anything." and that sort. The corrections system encourages family contact, participation, etc. Fine and dandy. Yet when it comes to helping the family to help the A, they don't do squat. They talk out of both sides of their mouth.