ASpouse

First, I'm still mulling this over in my head, but you did instigate him twisting your wrist. How could you accuse him of hurting you when you started the entire episode? You should know better than to instigate anything with a drunk. JMVHO!

meli2005

I have gotten physically violent toward my AH. It is out of our extreme anger, our lack of control over the situation. the feeling that everything we have worked so hard to attain is all just out of reach now. It is a terrible feeling. Try to detach, it's hard. Maybe you should ask him to do his drinking elsewhere and not in your home.


I hope your wrist gets better. I know one time I punched my husbnand and my hand was so sore for a while, I was so relieved when it got better. Because it was all so dumb to act like that, but at the time I was so out of control and eaten up with extreme anger.

The anger I have felt around alcohol scares me.

ASpouse

You ladies who get so angry to the extreme of violence because of living with an alcoholic and still you choose to stay? What don't I understand? What I can never do is condone violence, regardless of whether the person is an alcoholic or not. YOU, the sober one, can always choose to walk away and get away.

equus

I couldn't have run away from my own behaviour - maybe someone elses but not my own.

I pushed D up against a wall years ago - I grew up! However I consider emptying a pint over someone's head violence, I wouldn't tolerate it done to me despite it not being extreme.

It was not D's drinking or D that caused it, it was my own anger. Rationally by removing D from the equation I would know that I still get angry - the lesson to me was to change what caused the behaviour I was ashamed of.
Cause = Anger
Cause of the anger = Fear and frustration
Cause of the fear/frustration = having a sense of possession/fear of loss - MY husband, MY D.

Solution = fuel the love I held for D for years, no possession required, stop feeding the more possessive love (which I think was for myself to HAVE him as much if not more than FOR him).

Result = A relationship that has got better than I could imagine, LOADS of happiness in the time we have together, an ongoing project in myself not to love selfishly. And although it was the last time he drank so far at least on that occassion to deal with the situation with integerity and compassion. We've had a couple of other (ehem) financial situation (D' ran up debt) which I believe I actually handled better than I thought I could. The result of that has been to leave me happier.

softasylum

I can so relate to your courageous post-the rants,lectures,dramatic declarations- I've played the wedding band trump card also, only it was me ripping it off my own finger ang flinging it at him. We do these ugly things because we want so desperately to believe that a compassionate human being still exists underneath the alcohol haze and that maybe THIS time they will see the pain they are causing...
I know that it is so frustrating to live this way and seemingly be the only one to mull the situation over and rack your brains trying to find solutions and agonize over the stark reality, all whilst your spouse continues to poison himself and your life together in every aspect..
I too have had major difficulty controlling my anger and will admit that in the past not only have I ranted and raved-wrenched the beer can away-dumped a plate of food on-(I know that it's evil and that I may catch hell on this board for admitting it, but I have to tell ya, your kitty litter caper did give me a kind of "You go Girl!" vicarious satisfactory thrill...I'm sure he must have been acting like a real sh#thead huh?) and yes I have smacked and pushed at my husband---all in a vain attempt to --let's say this all together boys and girls--"GET THROUGH TO HIM !!"-- Well in all of the years we've been together I have still not gotten through to him and with help of all the generous people who have posted on this life changing wonder of a message board- I now realize that I never will-but that I can get through to myself and stop torturing my son and I with my useless reactions to my husbands stupidity.
In December my husband was due to go on a business trip. Every year we attend a Holiday party at my sister's social club.Every year my husband sits at the bar and gets wasted while my the rest of us enjoy the festivities. Every year I drive home with an asinine and verbally abusive drunk. He insists on coming along with us and my little boy really looks forward to the party so I go.This year I managed to convince him to stay home-the reasoning being that he knows he will get drunk and since he is not a great fan of flying on a good day, flying with a hangover would be pretty awful. He agreed and for the first time since my son was born (he's 7) I had a happy carefree time at the party with no angst about the return trip. I know that nothing should surprise me anymore but needless to say my husband was extremely intoxicated when we arrived home..music blasting, beligerent,defensive,ready for a fight and stumbling around-in short a real prince...I did not fall into my old habits but in my infinite wisdom tried a newer gentler approach-why don't I videotape him in my one last stupid attempt to GET THROUGH TO HIM-- Wrong move! He evidently didn't want to be a star since he charged across the room, broke the LCD screen and whacked me upside my head so to speak... He had never struck me physically before and this in full view of our poor little boy who was horrified to say the least. I am only recanting this to let you know that although I don't think this will happen again and I will take action if it does-that anything may be possible as the disease progresses...
So please don't be embarrassed ByaThread many of us have been there, I do so admire your candor. Here's my hand to help lift you up from that hole and into the daylight. TRY-and I know it's so so hard -to stop:
-thinking you will reach him
-hoping he will understand your anguish
-reacting to his drunken episodes
Leave the house, go into another room,do whatever you can to remove yourself from the immediate situation. There are many great postsin this forum about detaching which have been of great help. Read them over and over when you can. Everybody's situation is unique in it's own way and I haven't yet read your previous posts so I don't know yours, but if leaving is an option-consider it-much easier said than done..boy do I know. Here is a great big cyber hug,be well and take good care of yourselfxoxo

Zoey

Take the gun or guns to a friend's for safe keeping.or at least take the bullets to someone to keep or dispose of. OK?? I too understand the anger. HUGS

JessicaNAJ

I think this goes back to "teaching others how to treat us". If we treat others with disrespect and violence, we will be treated with disrespect and violence. We will also feel guilty for our actions which will in escense lessen the fault of the other party....In other words, you will feel so guilty for what you've done, you will think that the other party only reacted b/c of what you started. So, don't start it. Don't give yourself a reason to feel guilty.

Also, I think we teach ourselves how we want to be treated...we get use to postive or negative behavior it and call it "normal". What is so normal about being miserable and fighting like that?

Once G caught on that I wasn't giving into his rants, he backed off. Sure, he'd yell, call me a psycho b!tch, tell me I was stupid, tell me he wanted a divorce, etc. BUt I'd ignore him and eventually he'd give up and pass out. See....he was trying to get me to argue with him so he could blame his actions on me. I stopped playing that game. HOWEVER, he never really started treating me with respect. He actually continued the same. I got tired of it and told him it was best for me and the kids that he move out. But that was my situation. I realized I deserved better.

Pick-a-name

Sorry; KNow the feeling , but I was told, and believe this is true, FOR YOUR SAKE.......walk away, stay away, do something for yourself instead.........because he is still going to drink and he does no even remember or really care about any of this, but here you are: it bothers YOU! YOU feel guilty, upset, etc.,etc.

NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES.


Why not, the next time you are tempted to take his bait...don't! (I KNOW the temptation! ) It doesn't help, and it ruins YOUR day....do something YOU ENJOY instead, and let him stay there alone in his funk. You can not help it if he wants to be miserable; but you don't have to join him. JMHO

Good luck!

ByAThread

I feel I have to reply, as this has been weighing heavily on my brain all day, and will likely continue to bother me. First of all...thanks to those of you who gave supportive advice, which I already know, but often forget...just walk away and let him roll. Second...I DO (REALLY, REALLY DO) take full responsibility for my anger and actions, and realize (FULLY) how awful I become at times, and how unfair and nasty it is. And I DO (REALLY) know I need to work on my anger and reacting and need help with that. But I have to say, as well, that some of your responses sounded to me like I was the only naughty one, totally abusive, breaking the law, causing the "poor guy" to defend himself, which may have hurt, but too bad, I deserved it, 'cause I brought it on. Remember now, that I am NOT trying to lessen my part in this particular situation AT ALL! But I am expressing how some of your posts felt to me...that you were "letting him off the hook" for HIS part in it, which inflicted a lasting injury. You can argue the law all you want, and you can remind me I can only control MY actions, and you can tell me how WRONG I was, and you'd all be right. But I just wish some of you had at least included the fact that he, also, doesn't have the right to be abusive, just like I don't. Maybe you find this my way of disregarding your words, or defending my behavior...it is NOT that at all! I just want you to know how some of the posts sounded. Maybe you few were not mentioning his part in it because a drunk's actions aren't worth mentioning??? Maybe the ones who said he had every right to defend himself just forgot to mention that that way of defending onesself isn't so cool or legal, either. Maybe some of you truly believe he has every right to be violent in that situation. And maybe I'm just looking for those that said drunks do this, and acknowledged that up front, rather than only telling me what I did wrong.

Posting that lengthy confession and asking for your opinion was MY first step in dealing with the anger and violence. I guess I took some of the language, or lack of addressing what he did, as an attack. I'm generally paranoid and defensive by nature, and have a very low self-esteem to begin with, so I tend to be over-sensitive to things sometimes. I thank those of you who were less focused on my BAD behavior, and made me feel ready to deal better the next time. I hope I can keep coming here as I like to do, and get much help from all of you.

As for the guns...I have removed them before, and hidden the bullets many times, for fear of his carrying through with threats of suicide. Once he gets sober for a time, he wants them back. To me, it's just like hiding the vodka, or pouring it out. If he wants to kill himself, he will find another way. As for me using a gun...I don't even know how to load or work one, or what to call it! And they scare me and I am against using them.

I will continue to try hard to walk away, which I have been capable of on many occasions. Like right now...I came home to the usual scene...messed up house, him sitting on couch under blanket watching the 9,000th rerun of Law & Order...not at his AA meeting...dogs outside for who knows how long...vodka bottles stuffed in the bookshelf...he just escaped to his room for an early bedtime...I am staying away. He called me earlier, acting as if nothing had transpired last PM, as usual...I spoke with him briefly (I was at work), but didn't question or prod on anything.

So...I am going bed, and hopefully will start feeling better. I, too, don't mean to step on anyone's toes here...I just felt I wanted to let you know how I took the posts. Thanks for listening.

Pick-a-name

That's a "given"!
Take care....I know it can be soooooooo frustrating! AND MORE!!!!!!

equus

When I wrote what I did I was talking about violence as wrong not people. I honestly believe it's frightening with good reason, removes our peace, and does harm. That's what I feel about violence NOT people. Sometimes all I can offer is one small perspective from my own experience, what I found helped me. There was no right or wrong about me focusing on my own behaviour - it was just the part that upset me most, and looking at it helped me the most. So that was all I could offer here. I don't have anything else that's worked to draw on, I couldn't offer more whether I was talking to you or your husband - at least not that I know of.

Please don't see it as an attack on you, YOU ARE NOT WRONG, only behaviour that causes harm is wrong no matter who delivers it, no matter what justification or anger alters their mind to lose control.

I'm sorry I don't know any other way to look at it that's worth passing on.

escape artist

ByAThread- i like what Cap said. and i know how you feel as i have been there and done the same thing. then we beat ourselves up for what we did, and can't figure out how it is that it IS his fault and yet we perpetrated it. the anger and rage was the biggest issue for me which got me into an al-anon meeting.

i was relieved to find out that of course you will feel rage- cause the alcoholic situation is outRAGEous. so the first thing i REALLY worked on (while doing the steps) was focusing on DETACHMENT- whatever you need to do -to break the cycle of rage-- which also meant i had to FAKE IT TIL I MADE IT- so i faked it.

why this is SO essential is because of how the Alcoholic cycle works. AS LONG AS YOU ARE ANGRY AND REACTING TO HIM- HE WILL BE ABLE TO DEFLECT HIS GUILT, ANGER, RAGE, AND SHAME FOR WHAT HE IS DOING ***BACK**** ONTO YOU. So if you want to break the violent raging angry cycle- you will need to Let It Begin With You and remind yourself that he NEEDS you to be angry and raging in order for him to continue doing what he is doing. AS Soon as you begin this first step of acting like everything is JUST FINE WITH YOU- he will ONLY have himself to feel bad about.

so let me repeat this-- He allready knows what he is doing. He allready is full of shame and guilt and anger and rage for what he is doing. He just can't accept it and NEEDS to have someone else there (you) to be the one he can BLAME for it- and as long as you accept the bait and rage about it- he can rationalize and justify his drinking- "see it is all her fault, she attacked me".....

so i know it is hard to DETACH but for your sake and his try your best to ACCEPT yourself, be GENTLE with yourself, Love yourself- and BELIEVE IT. so that you will ALLOW him to OWN his own anger and rage and life goes on for you as it should.

Good Luck, I know you can do it! If i can do it (i'm highly reactive) than anybody can do it. If you have any of the little books al-anon has- they are a great resource to read and read again and read another until you get to that better place and are able to continue keeping your SERENITY.

Zoey

escape artist...Wow! you explained it so well. Thank You.

ByaThread.. I feel no one meant to hurt your feelings, and no one judges, just stateing facts as we see it sounds so cold typed out. We all understand all these emotions. We want the best for you. Helping you to learn and change I feel is best for you, can you understand that? Like yelling at a child about crossing the highway, we want then to look both ways and be carefull, because we care and want them safe.
We understand it takes time to learn what we need in our situation.

Been a while sense I have reread the AA Big Book, but it says stuff on anger, shucks, I thought that was so wrong. So much to learn, but so worth it.

Sorry everyone ,that I used WE, but I do beliwve everyone on here cares and wants to help. I have always wished I had found our programs sooner. but boy, did I disagree a lot. (slow learner) ByaThread, keep coming back. HUGS

ASpouse

For Gods sake he is an ALCOHOLIC ...... his behavior is erratic and violent. This should be expected from an alcoholic who has this behavior pattern.

You said yourself you couldn't control yourself and started the entire argument. I for one am not letting him off the hook, he's a DRUNK!!!!! Can you honestly say this is the first time ever he's reacted this way to you?

How anyone in their right mind (and I should clarify that enablers, codepedents and people who live with alcoholics/addicts are NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS) who know they are dealing with a drunk, who knows they are living with a drunk, CAN ARGUE WITH A DRUNK .........well, in all honesty, I can have no empathy if they get hurt, be it physically or mentally.

Just to make this fair, if this was a situation of a sober HUSBAND and a DRUNK wife, I'd feel the same way. Sober Men are abused as much as women in alcoholic/enabling relationships.

IMVHO, you are more to blame than he is, at least time. Now you are trying to justify and validate your behavior, you know it's wrong, you know it was horrible, you know there are rage issues .......BUT ..... there is always a but ...... you still feel he should be held accountable for your behavior and what happened to you. After all he was drunk and pissed off at you and you couldn't control yourself and you baited him and it got ugly, but the bottom line was "you could have made the choice to walk away".

That is schoolyard playground stuff to say "well I hit Sally because she did such and such so Sally called me a bad name and I called her a worse name back and then she hit me so I pulled her hair" ...... etc. THIS behavior I expect from kids and people in alcoholic/addict relationships. I've worked in too many bars, seen this stuff over and over and over again. Drunk guy, hurt and distraught wife/GF. I got so tired of it, I eventually quit bartending.

Not that I think you'd care what I think, but I can't wrap my mind around validating your behavior. His I get .......HE'S AN ALCOHOLIC and his life is unmanageable! I don't believe it's right, but I get it! As an edit, I can understand your behavior also, but I don't think it's correct or proper behavior either.

softasylum

How anyone in their right mind (and I should clarify that enablers, codepedents and people who live with alcoholics/addicts are NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS) who know they are dealing with a drunk, who knows they are living with a drunk, CAN ARGUE WITH A DRUNK .........well, in all honesty, I can have no empathy if they get hurt, be it physically or mentally.


Wow thats a bit... harsh to say the least. I feel that I may speak for more than a few when I say that although I live with an Alcoholic my mind may be at times sad and angry but I still feel it is "right". Being a drunk does't absolve you of wrongdoing when you cause harm to another human being -be it mental or physical. Maybe I am being overly sensitive here but aspouse are you actually saying that you feel that it's justifiable for an intoxicated person to respond to a verbal provocation with a silencing fist because after all you should have known better the poor baby does have an illness ?? I don't mean to sound so argumentative but as I see it from your words here you are not just stating your opinion of the particular circumstance that ByaThread posted originally here but in general.

And while I'm at it and I don't mean to **** anyone off here-all of your posts and sharing and wisdom have indeed been a Godsend to me- But did anyone really need to be so flatout rude to ByaThread ? We shouldn't argue or be rude to our drunken spouses but it's ok to argue and be rude and say in essence "I told you so" to one of our own here?? Peace to all xoxo

dan1958

Barb
Being new here I dont really think I can give the right advice for you. But,your post hit home and could have been me writing. Ive at first I wanted to fight back myself and got a little crazy. Really just yelling. But,I took my verbal shots at her only tp have more "crap" came baclk at me. Which only mad me madder. Anyway,like they say you cant agrue with an acholic! What I did was take a walk or go for a drive and just let her stew on her own. I have even gotten a hotel room. You can imgine some what that did for her. But,for me it kept me out of the line of fire and my blood pressure down. Good luck and as you can see your not alone.

ASpouse

First, understand what I say always, and I mean always comes across rude and straight to the heart.

....... no, I never said that being a drunk absolves the drunk of wrong doing or being abusive. What I said is if you live with an alcoholic, and ONE CHOOSES TO STAY living with that alcoholic, you need to understand what you are living with.

I have been beat up by an alcoholic ...... only once, but the man blackened both my eyes, broke my nose and loosened a few teeth. The next day he asked me what had happened to "his baby"? He honestly did not remember! I was gone 6 weeks later after 8 years in that relationship.

.... Do not put words in my mouth. Only a fool or an idiot would think that this behavior quoted is OK and I am not a fool. This is not what happened in the situation posted by ByAThread. She tried to remove his wedding ring (which she admitted was wrong) and he twisted her wrist to make her stop. He did not respond with a "silencing fist", unless I missed that part of the post.

...... excuse me, but that is what she asked for wasn't it by ending her post in this manner?
When we post something as volatile as this topic and then ask for replies, one cannot control how those replies are given. Now if she wanted the "candy coated" version she could have asked for only replies that would validate her behavior with her alcoholic husband.

It's time to get off the Insanity Wheels and make some changes. If you don't, NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES!

Cap3

Talking about him,and what he does,
will not change you.
I never mentioned "him",simply because he is not here asking for help.,telling his story.If he were,then id be posting to him...lol...
The great thing is that you are asking.That you are realizing,that you have a problem with,"your", anger,and are reaching out."your" on your way to recovery!!!When you start reaching out,and doing the do things to change this,about yourself.He will make changes when he has the desire to change,too.I never waited for anyone else to change.I went forward with my own recovery,.It was "my" life on the line.It was important to me,to get help.
If he went over a bridge,,would you follow him?Of course not.Keep the focus on your recovery.
keep on,keeping on,,!!!!

letterqueen

I can relate because my anger scared me too. I once threw an empty bottle I found in the closet through a large plate glass window (it's amazing how just a couple seconds, while it barreled through the air and I thought - surely it won't break the window - seems like an eternity) Then I kicked a hole through a door (and learned not all doors are solid). I never touched him, but boy did I think about it on a few occasions! My MO was I broke things (usually my own - how smart is that?) and I ranted and raved like a CrAzEd LuNaTiC. Once I threw a chocolate protein shake against the wall and spent the weekend repainting the kitchen. Not 2 sane!

The closer together MY episodes were, the more i began to realize I was getting sick and losing myself in the process... Peronally I think I'm predisposed to being a very emotional person and I don't think I could have sustained that environment and just learned to ignore him and the mental/verbal abuse he afflicted whilst intoxicated.

Recognizing this unhealthy behavior (on my part) meant I had to think about me for once because it IS serious when you realize you're becoming someone you don't want to be and that YOUR health is being effected. For me, because the x wasn't in a sincere recovery mode (everything he participated in was only due to state mandates for a DUI) and the environment was too unhealthy for me to continue to live in I left. Even after I left the abuse that had provoked my episodes continued (calls, emails, etc.) until I decided, once and for all, to stop reacting.

The last time he contacted me was about a year ago (he finally gave up after a year of no responces from me) and he said how important I was to him, how much he'll always love me, etc... wished me well in life, then ended w/ I hope you address your anger issues.

I guess he didn't realize (probably because I never told him) that this a huge part of what provoked me to leave. I haven't had an idiotic episode since the day I walked out that door. But don't get me wrong... I'm not pinning it all on him, I followed up with alanon and therapy and learned alot about myself in the process. I think I'm a lot healthier today because I recognize the issues that took me there, kept me there and lead me to such insanity. I'm still working on some of these pesky issues... but am happy to say today I am in a MUCH better place. Sometimes it's a hard concept but you really need to make YOURSELF a priority and take care of you.

prince

Hi BYAThread

When you are a heavy drinker, you are angry at the world. Good advice goes in one ear and out the other, all you think about is your next drink.

I could go for days steady drinking, then drink myself in to a right mess. Not caring about my wife, friends or family. In my eyes the drink came first, everybody else came secound.

I even tried to take my own life January 23rd 2005, it was not a cry for help as I made sure my wife was taken cared of on my death, as the tablets would have worked due to the strength and amount taken.

Your bloke is hiding from something and punishing himself for some reason. That is what you need to explore, then you 'both' can work towards the solution.

Get him to write his thoughts down and explore them slowley. Check for Debt, is he running up cedit cards and so on.

My heart is with you, dont give up on him. You made a vow for better or worse remember.