Is it helping or hurting?
Drug Addiction Has No Mercy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milwaukie Oregon
Posts: 875
Is it helping or hurting?
This is step one for the alcoholic/addict in the 12 steps ...
We admitted that we were powerless over our alcoholism/addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.
When I think about the above ... I know what it feels like to feel that way ... as an alcoholic/addict I came to feel like that ... I arrived at that place ... and I was done ... I was tired, I was beat up ... I had spent years and years and years using ... I lived to get high and got high to live ... My addiction was so strong I couldn't separate the two ... but when I arrived at the end of myself I knew I could no longer live with my addiction and one of us had to go ... I had tried and tried to quit on my own so many times before and failed so I was sure that I didn't have the strength to do it on my own ... I knew I just couldn't keep livin' like I was livin' because I was full on miserable with myself and my life and life around me ... I seriously thought about killing myself ... I was going to take my life because I thought that it was the only way out of the hell I was living in.
I was allowed to reach that place because there were no more enablers to enable me, there were no more fixers trying to fix me, no one was pushin' me to get clean ... I was free to use without anyone bitchin' at me anymore ... I had out run all the people who tried to run along side me and love me out of my addiction ... they had run the marathon long enough and had finally ran out of breath and endurance ... and had finally admitted to themselves that they were powerless over me and my addiction and that their lives had become unmanageable from trying to save me ... and they had let me go and gave me to God ... and began their own recovery ...
The alcoholic/addict has to be free to arrive at step one ... We have to let him/her ... if we are always rescuing, fixing all their problems, enabling them ... it stands in the way of them arriving at this step because you are shielding them from their lives becoming unmanagable ... and in the process your life becomes unmanagable from trying to save the alcoholic/addict ... and you bear the burden of their addiction allowing them to feel no consequences (the very thing that the alcoholic/addict needs to begin to break them down) alcoholic/addicts don't like pain ... and they use to kill pain, but when the we stand back and allow them to suffer the consequences of their behavior and their addiction then it becomes the burden on their shoulders ... and no matter how much they use the burden may fade for a high or two, but believe me when burden upon burden piles up and the booze and or/dope ain't killin' the pain no more, but now everything is intensified ... Now when they get high they can think on how miserable their life is and start looking for ways to change it ... and most realize the culprit that got us their was our addiction that we NOW can admit that we have ... and the behavior that stems from our addiction is an accessory to the problem and we can come to a place within ourselves that we reconize the need for recovery and begin to seek it.
Its all a process ... You can either be a partner in the process to allow them to hit rock bottom without delaying it ... "thats raising the bottom" so they hit it sooner
Or you can be a hinderance in the process in delaying the inevitable ... and the longer you delay the inevitable the more the damage is to your alcoholic/addicted loved one and to yourself.
If you knew today that all your efforts to help your alcoholic/addicted loved one hurt them instead of helping them ... and that if you didn't stop enabling them ... their bottom would be death ... Would you stop? No matter the intention ... if you are enabling the alcoholic/addict you are part of the problem and not the solution ... Sometimes even our best intentions is a nail nothing but a nail in the coffin ... Their already killin' themselves .. We don't gotta help em ...
(and that is the painful truth).
Just a lil something to think about,
Passion
We admitted that we were powerless over our alcoholism/addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable.
When I think about the above ... I know what it feels like to feel that way ... as an alcoholic/addict I came to feel like that ... I arrived at that place ... and I was done ... I was tired, I was beat up ... I had spent years and years and years using ... I lived to get high and got high to live ... My addiction was so strong I couldn't separate the two ... but when I arrived at the end of myself I knew I could no longer live with my addiction and one of us had to go ... I had tried and tried to quit on my own so many times before and failed so I was sure that I didn't have the strength to do it on my own ... I knew I just couldn't keep livin' like I was livin' because I was full on miserable with myself and my life and life around me ... I seriously thought about killing myself ... I was going to take my life because I thought that it was the only way out of the hell I was living in.
I was allowed to reach that place because there were no more enablers to enable me, there were no more fixers trying to fix me, no one was pushin' me to get clean ... I was free to use without anyone bitchin' at me anymore ... I had out run all the people who tried to run along side me and love me out of my addiction ... they had run the marathon long enough and had finally ran out of breath and endurance ... and had finally admitted to themselves that they were powerless over me and my addiction and that their lives had become unmanageable from trying to save me ... and they had let me go and gave me to God ... and began their own recovery ...
The alcoholic/addict has to be free to arrive at step one ... We have to let him/her ... if we are always rescuing, fixing all their problems, enabling them ... it stands in the way of them arriving at this step because you are shielding them from their lives becoming unmanagable ... and in the process your life becomes unmanagable from trying to save the alcoholic/addict ... and you bear the burden of their addiction allowing them to feel no consequences (the very thing that the alcoholic/addict needs to begin to break them down) alcoholic/addicts don't like pain ... and they use to kill pain, but when the we stand back and allow them to suffer the consequences of their behavior and their addiction then it becomes the burden on their shoulders ... and no matter how much they use the burden may fade for a high or two, but believe me when burden upon burden piles up and the booze and or/dope ain't killin' the pain no more, but now everything is intensified ... Now when they get high they can think on how miserable their life is and start looking for ways to change it ... and most realize the culprit that got us their was our addiction that we NOW can admit that we have ... and the behavior that stems from our addiction is an accessory to the problem and we can come to a place within ourselves that we reconize the need for recovery and begin to seek it.
Its all a process ... You can either be a partner in the process to allow them to hit rock bottom without delaying it ... "thats raising the bottom" so they hit it sooner
Or you can be a hinderance in the process in delaying the inevitable ... and the longer you delay the inevitable the more the damage is to your alcoholic/addicted loved one and to yourself.
If you knew today that all your efforts to help your alcoholic/addicted loved one hurt them instead of helping them ... and that if you didn't stop enabling them ... their bottom would be death ... Would you stop? No matter the intention ... if you are enabling the alcoholic/addict you are part of the problem and not the solution ... Sometimes even our best intentions is a nail nothing but a nail in the coffin ... Their already killin' themselves .. We don't gotta help em ...
(and that is the painful truth).
Just a lil something to think about,
Passion
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 3,054
I was allowed to reach that place because there were no more enablers to enable me, there were no more fixers trying to fix me, no one was pushin' me to get clean ... I was free to use without anyone bitchin' at me anymore ... I had out run all the people who tried to run along side me and love me out of my addiction ... they had run the marathon long enough and had finally ran out of breath and endurance ... and had finally admitted to themselves that they were powerless over me and my addiction and that their lives had become unmanageable from trying to save me ... and they had let me go and gave me to God ...(emphasis added)
I'm glad you did but the flip side of this message has an element of blame and threat. Not least in your question:
If you knew today that all your efforts to help your alcoholic/addicted loved one hurt them instead of helping them ... and that if you didn't stop enabling them ... their bottom would be death ... Would you stop? (emphasis added)
Perhaps there's a need to see that it's the person who drinks that will primarily decide their fate not the actions of relatives and friends.
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
Posts: 5,599
(((equus)))
I think many people who live with alcoholics and addicts are living with a person who does not think they have a problem and if they do they are not seeking any kind of solution.
You are in a different kind of situation in that D wants to get well and is trying to find help many people do not have that here. This thread is for people who have run out of options, who have tried everything humanly possible to help their loved ones get clean and all else has failed.
Letting them fall is a very difficult thing, a hard choice to make all of us hope you are never faced with making a choice like this....
I think many people who live with alcoholics and addicts are living with a person who does not think they have a problem and if they do they are not seeking any kind of solution.
You are in a different kind of situation in that D wants to get well and is trying to find help many people do not have that here. This thread is for people who have run out of options, who have tried everything humanly possible to help their loved ones get clean and all else has failed.
Letting them fall is a very difficult thing, a hard choice to make all of us hope you are never faced with making a choice like this....
Drug Addiction Has No Mercy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milwaukie Oregon
Posts: 875
Originally Posted by splendra
This thread is for people who have run out of options, who have tried everything humanly possible to help their loved ones get clean and all else has failed.
Passion
Alcohol is a cruel mistress!!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: crownpoint newyork
Posts: 820
Hi Passion, I understand the idea of raising the bottom. Unfortunately, for my step-son I think death will be the bottom. Everytime I think he has reached his and lost everything he goes right back for more. For years we have stepped back and made him take responsibility for his actions. At 33 he is headed for an early grave and all I can do is pray. Your post was so right on and truthful. Thank You!!! Take Care, Kerry
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Where the sun always shines!
Posts: 1,625
Great threat Passion. In my case, I completely see what you are trying to say. I DO think I have "hurt" my AH with all the help I've given him. I have prevented him from "growing up".... in the year and a half we've been seperated he has managed to totally put himself in debt. But this is a process he needs to go through. I cannot help him, only he can help himself. As long as he was still living here and I was taking care of everything....he had NO worries. Hence, his drinking was a game to him. AND of course he didn't think he had a problem.
Whatever he may think about himself now I am totally clueless. I don't ask. But I do know that now he is living the consquences of his own actions and he is learning how to handle things on his own (except his boss is still helping him....ugh). I no longer pick up his pieces. Heck....I got enough of my own pieces to pick up
Whatever he may think about himself now I am totally clueless. I don't ask. But I do know that now he is living the consquences of his own actions and he is learning how to handle things on his own (except his boss is still helping him....ugh). I no longer pick up his pieces. Heck....I got enough of my own pieces to pick up
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: northern minnesota
Posts: 269
gad i feel overwhelmed tonight... and so sad as this is such a reflection of my exA and our relationship.. my codie heart breaks at the pain he will endure.. if he survives these addictions.
i know i did right leaving. i know i did save myself and my daughter from sheer misery and verbal manipulation and abuse... but like watching a kitten die... i feel sad to see him have to suffer the effects of his choices...
must be time to go to bed... starting to reflect on the softer side.. and crawling into my denial.. time to go to bed and wake up to reality and his being an as_hole. lol.
quietsins
i know i did right leaving. i know i did save myself and my daughter from sheer misery and verbal manipulation and abuse... but like watching a kitten die... i feel sad to see him have to suffer the effects of his choices...
must be time to go to bed... starting to reflect on the softer side.. and crawling into my denial.. time to go to bed and wake up to reality and his being an as_hole. lol.
quietsins
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Jasper, GA
Posts: 239
Originally Posted by splendra
This thread is for people who have run out of options, who have tried everything humanly possible to help their loved ones get clean and all else has failed.
I thought this thread was for "Family and Friends of Alcoholics". I don't see anywhere that it is just for folks whose alcoholic is still on the slide down, who has not gotten into recovery. I guess I'll have to let my SO know when she gets up that she doesn't have any need to come here anymore...or go to AlAnon either, I guess...since I'm in recovery.
Sorry about the sarcasm, but I haven't had my coffee yet.
As an addiction counselor, I have found that AlAnon meetings, and other groups for "family and friends" that have as members only those whose alcoholics/addicts are still active tend to be not recovery programs/meetings, but "let's bitch about our alcoholic/addict" sessions. The groups that have as members folks whose alcoholic/addict is still using, transitioning to recovery, and with some clean/sober time tend to be the ones that are really helpful. Most of the rest seem to be group pity parties.
BubbaBob
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 727
Helping/hurting,i personally see as neither can i do without the other persons permission.
Step one for both programs,im powerless.
The alcoholic may take advantage of my good works with regards in helping,but im not responsible for what he/she is doing,feeling,how they use my help,etc,or any decisions that they make.Im never the "results" of another.Thats all an inside job.Al-anon,we cant control,cure,the,alcoholic.I could be helping a non-alcoholic out of a mess,and they wont take advantage of me or the situation.They learn by their issues.My helping has nothing to do with what they do with my help.What happens.They make their own decisions,just like me..The alcoholic,self-centered,selfishness,ego,,that we know is da problem.Has nothing to do with others.There will always be someone an active alcohlolic will use,to shield them from the conquences of life on lifes terms.Could be the boss,friends,,etc..Its the "using" and taking advantage of others,thats the problem.The using of anothers,good intentions for their own advantage.Alcoholics have a habit of turning things around,to suit themselves.Its,not the actions of others,.
Having said this,i learned the hard way to let go,and let God,with the alcoholics in my life.Hurting them?My dear i was hurting myself,driving myself up the ever loving wall trying to help all the alocholics in my life.All of my good works,,,,never worked.But caused me alot of pain and sorrow.
Recovery came to me,when i let it all go,and worked on my own recovery.Im powerless,over others.My disease is in trying to fix,what i cannot,focusing on,my own issues here...Im learning a new way to live...Its just human nature when one wants or tries to help out another.But when im helping someone who doesnt want,it,and i become obbessed,about helping,purposely pushing my own will on another.Believing i know best for another.Then houstan we have a problem,and its me..Its ok to be helpful to others.But if they decide to use that help,in a negitive way,then i,let go.
Thanks for letting me share,my experience,and opinions,here,
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!
Step one for both programs,im powerless.
The alcoholic may take advantage of my good works with regards in helping,but im not responsible for what he/she is doing,feeling,how they use my help,etc,or any decisions that they make.Im never the "results" of another.Thats all an inside job.Al-anon,we cant control,cure,the,alcoholic.I could be helping a non-alcoholic out of a mess,and they wont take advantage of me or the situation.They learn by their issues.My helping has nothing to do with what they do with my help.What happens.They make their own decisions,just like me..The alcoholic,self-centered,selfishness,ego,,that we know is da problem.Has nothing to do with others.There will always be someone an active alcohlolic will use,to shield them from the conquences of life on lifes terms.Could be the boss,friends,,etc..Its the "using" and taking advantage of others,thats the problem.The using of anothers,good intentions for their own advantage.Alcoholics have a habit of turning things around,to suit themselves.Its,not the actions of others,.
Having said this,i learned the hard way to let go,and let God,with the alcoholics in my life.Hurting them?My dear i was hurting myself,driving myself up the ever loving wall trying to help all the alocholics in my life.All of my good works,,,,never worked.But caused me alot of pain and sorrow.
Recovery came to me,when i let it all go,and worked on my own recovery.Im powerless,over others.My disease is in trying to fix,what i cannot,focusing on,my own issues here...Im learning a new way to live...Its just human nature when one wants or tries to help out another.But when im helping someone who doesnt want,it,and i become obbessed,about helping,purposely pushing my own will on another.Believing i know best for another.Then houstan we have a problem,and its me..Its ok to be helpful to others.But if they decide to use that help,in a negitive way,then i,let go.
Thanks for letting me share,my experience,and opinions,here,
God Bless,take care!!!!!!!
Last edited by Cap3; 10-16-2005 at 06:05 AM. Reason: adding too post
1000 Post Club
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Recoveryville, USA
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Originally Posted by BubbaBob
Really?
I thought this thread was for "Family and Friends of Alcoholics". I don't see anywhere that it is just for folks whose alcoholic is still on the slide down, who has not gotten into recovery. I guess I'll have to let my SO know when she gets up that she doesn't have any need to come here anymore...or go to AlAnon either, I guess...since I'm in recovery.
Sorry about the sarcasm, but I haven't had my coffee yet.
As an addiction counselor, I have found that AlAnon meetings, and other groups for "family and friends" that have as members only those whose alcoholics/addicts are still active tend to be not recovery programs/meetings, but "let's bitch about our alcoholic/addict" sessions. The groups that have as members folks whose alcoholic/addict is still using, transitioning to recovery, and with some clean/sober time tend to be the ones that are really helpful. Most of the rest seem to be group pity parties.
BubbaBob
I thought this thread was for "Family and Friends of Alcoholics". I don't see anywhere that it is just for folks whose alcoholic is still on the slide down, who has not gotten into recovery. I guess I'll have to let my SO know when she gets up that she doesn't have any need to come here anymore...or go to AlAnon either, I guess...since I'm in recovery.
Sorry about the sarcasm, but I haven't had my coffee yet.
As an addiction counselor, I have found that AlAnon meetings, and other groups for "family and friends" that have as members only those whose alcoholics/addicts are still active tend to be not recovery programs/meetings, but "let's bitch about our alcoholic/addict" sessions. The groups that have as members folks whose alcoholic/addict is still using, transitioning to recovery, and with some clean/sober time tend to be the ones that are really helpful. Most of the rest seem to be group pity parties.
BubbaBob
Being an addiction counselor doesnt give you the inate ability to judge what alanon is or isnt, does or doesnt do. Have you attened alanon for a significant amount of time to determine what we do indeed do there? Or is this just your anger at your wife, who you think attends alanon to sit and bitch about you coming out?
Probably not.....
You got a lot of hostility,,might wanna call your sponsor on this one...
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: northern minnesota
Posts: 269
bitch sessions? come on now... what would we ever have to bitch about?
dang.. talk about kicking people when they are down... you know what i love about alanon... for the first time... i got to express a million emotions that had been bottled up for years.... years... and it helped me get better.
what happens in alanon stays in alanon... and nobody from outside that group is ever going to understand what our lives have been like. except people whos lives mirror ours. we take what we want and leave the rest.... bitch session?
you sound just like my ex... as if alcoholism doesnt affect anyone else but the user... ugh... thats frustrating as all hell.
if you are an addictions counselor... sure would seem you would understand both sides of this... hell..not even both sides... all four sides... users, recoverers, codependents and enablers... and the many combinations of the above.
ugh
quietsins
dang.. talk about kicking people when they are down... you know what i love about alanon... for the first time... i got to express a million emotions that had been bottled up for years.... years... and it helped me get better.
what happens in alanon stays in alanon... and nobody from outside that group is ever going to understand what our lives have been like. except people whos lives mirror ours. we take what we want and leave the rest.... bitch session?
you sound just like my ex... as if alcoholism doesnt affect anyone else but the user... ugh... thats frustrating as all hell.
if you are an addictions counselor... sure would seem you would understand both sides of this... hell..not even both sides... all four sides... users, recoverers, codependents and enablers... and the many combinations of the above.
ugh
quietsins
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Jasper, GA
Posts: 239
Originally Posted by FriendofBill
Have you attened alanon for a significant amount of time to determine what we do indeed do there? Or is this just your anger at your wife, who you think attends alanon to sit and bitch about you coming out?
Probably not.....
You got a lot of hostility,,might wanna call your sponsor on this one...
Probably not.....
You got a lot of hostility,,might wanna call your sponsor on this one...
As a matter of fact, I HAVE attended AlAnon for quite a while, since I am also an adult child of an alcoholic...and I am NOT angry at my SO...she attends meetings that are not just folks bitching about their alkie, instead being full of folks looking for help.
If you will re-read my post, you will find I was responding to a post that this thread was only for those with still active alcoholics. Talk about anger and exclusiveness...
BubbaBob
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Jasper, GA
Posts: 239
quietsins, I didn't lump all AlAnon groups as bitch sessions...most aren't, but some are. I've been in meetings that were little more than gripe sessions with spouses complaining about their drunks. THAT is not recovery...and the post I responded to that said this thread was only for those with active alkies tended in that direction, intentionally or not.
BubbaBob
BubbaBob
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
Originally Posted by FriendofBill
Dude...get some coffee NOW!
Being an addiction counselor doesnt give you the inate ability to judge what alanon is or isnt, does or doesnt do. Have you attened alanon for a significant amount of time to determine what we do indeed do there? Or is this just your anger at your wife, who you think attends alanon to sit and bitch about you coming out?
Probably not.....
You got a lot of hostility,,might wanna call your sponsor on this one...
Being an addiction counselor doesnt give you the inate ability to judge what alanon is or isnt, does or doesnt do. Have you attened alanon for a significant amount of time to determine what we do indeed do there? Or is this just your anger at your wife, who you think attends alanon to sit and bitch about you coming out?
Probably not.....
You got a lot of hostility,,might wanna call your sponsor on this one...
FoB: Hold on just for a minute,please. In all honesty, I HAVE been to AlAnon meetings/group that were just that: bitch sessions. In fact, that was my original objection for continuing to go...especially in a smallish town with not many options.
Because the people involved are just that; imperfect people, there is always that chance. I believe this very topic is even addressed in the Alanon literature (One Day at a Time comes to mind.) I also think that is also why people are encouraged to try six meetings, preferably DIFFERENT meetings, to help avoid this very thing.
Of course, this is just my experience; but it does happen. I am glad you have not found this to be the case. It just means people like me have to look a little harder to find a group that IS about what Alanon is intended to be. I am sure this same thing happens in AA groups; in fact, I am sure that is does. My sister was mentioning it the other day, because she was unhappy with one of the groups she went to , and found another one with more to offer instead.
We are all here for the same reason: recovery and to improve ourselves, our lives,etc. I like to hear lots of advice; doesn't mean I agree or use it!
Thank you for your input; same to BubbaBob! Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
p.s. BubbaBob: I appreciate the original point you had to make; I thought it was very valid,too. Thanks for your input.
I hope no "feathers are ruffled" around here......we all need to remember we are all fighting the same foe:ALCOHOLISM. Not each other.
I appreciate you all! Let's keep fighting the good fight..against the disease!
I hope no "feathers are ruffled" around here......we all need to remember we are all fighting the same foe:ALCOHOLISM. Not each other.
I appreciate you all! Let's keep fighting the good fight..against the disease!
1000 Post Club
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Recoveryville, USA
Posts: 1,297
True, there are some people who do nothing but gripe about anyone and everyone. But in my 17 years in recovery, this is the minority and when it happens you can be sure the old timers sit up and remind people this aint what al anon is about.
To make such a hostile, blanket statement in this forum is offensive.....especially in a thread that was designed to enlightened the family members about thier negative enabling contribution to the alcoholic.
To make such a hostile, blanket statement in this forum is offensive.....especially in a thread that was designed to enlightened the family members about thier negative enabling contribution to the alcoholic.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,579
FoB: I assumed that is where you were coming from, and thankfully your experience seems to be the norm. I guess the group I went to a few times either did not have old-timers, or if they did they did not have "true recovery" (I do not recall hearing them mentioning the steps in a pratical way, or sponsers,etc). Whatever the problem; nobody seemed to be offering positive steps for recovery. I have since heard from other Alanon members that they did not find that particular group helpful for them,either.
I guess in a way that idea brings us full-circle to the point that older members do owe a debt back to be there for the newer members to learn the true purpose of this program, and to help us all to keep moving forward in our own recoveries.
Have a great day!
I guess in a way that idea brings us full-circle to the point that older members do owe a debt back to be there for the newer members to learn the true purpose of this program, and to help us all to keep moving forward in our own recoveries.
Have a great day!
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