In a days time it all fell apart
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 83
In a days time it all fell apart
I'm doing well, I think, at detaching with love, practicing JADE, Q-tip etc that I've been learning. However, it seems to cause drinking AH to ramp up his attempts to provoke me. He was so mean last night. The vile that spewed out of his mouth was so hard to "ignore" and walk away from, but I did though I cried when I was away from where he was. He would/ has never said such things sober and so I know it was alcohol-induced. He tells and shows me he loves me, I'm beautiful, has fun with me when he's sober- it was clearly genuinely expressed. Once alcohol was loaded in him the yesterday (PG version) he hates me, I'm a fat ---, never do anything, need to go find someone else to take care of me, he's done with me and it went on and on. Some of the stuff is fact, some was complete lies.
This kind of thing is why I struggle understanding how he can utter the stuff he says and the way he acts when not 24 hours before it was a completely different dynamic.
I've heard to reverse the direction of these all being directed at me and replace with "alcohol". I tried and it did help me not take it as truth. But a lot of what he says are very personal, specific, and deep attacks at me. It's hard to not wonder if it's maybe how he feels about me really but not bold enough to say sober? That's what hurts.
Past experience bringing up what was said or done drunk results in "I don't know why I said/did that", "I don't remember it", "I don't feel that way, I love you more than I can ever say."
I have explained numerous times how he chose to pick up the bottle when sober knowing that it can/does result in him behaving this way. I consider that he is thereby choosing the results. The results from me is I have been hurt and I need to heal.
This is a rant for the most part if you read this far. I would welcome any perspective from the outside.
This kind of thing is why I struggle understanding how he can utter the stuff he says and the way he acts when not 24 hours before it was a completely different dynamic.
I've heard to reverse the direction of these all being directed at me and replace with "alcohol". I tried and it did help me not take it as truth. But a lot of what he says are very personal, specific, and deep attacks at me. It's hard to not wonder if it's maybe how he feels about me really but not bold enough to say sober? That's what hurts.
Past experience bringing up what was said or done drunk results in "I don't know why I said/did that", "I don't remember it", "I don't feel that way, I love you more than I can ever say."
I have explained numerous times how he chose to pick up the bottle when sober knowing that it can/does result in him behaving this way. I consider that he is thereby choosing the results. The results from me is I have been hurt and I need to heal.
This is a rant for the most part if you read this far. I would welcome any perspective from the outside.
I once expressed sadness and frustration that my late husband never even tried to quit drinking. Someone here replied, "He couldn't."
At some point, the addict no longer has a choice.
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this.
At some point, I just had to decide that I wasn't going to wait any longer for someone else to change so that I could be more comfortable, happier, more content, whatever. I had to make my own peaceful, even if it didn't look the way I wanted it to, or wasn't with the people I wanted it to be with.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 83
At some point, I just had to decide that I wasn't going to wait any longer for someone else to change so that I could be more comfortable, happier, more content, whatever. I had to make my own peaceful, even if it didn't look the way I wanted it to, or wasn't with the people I wanted it to be with.
I'm sorry you have to listen to this ranting hopeunending. It must batter your self esteem around and that's never good. Who wants to live with someone who puts them down regularly?
Recanting all he has said when drunk, later on, doesn't actually cancel out the damage, to you, to the relationship.
Yes, he knows this hurts you, yes, he knows when he gets drunk you will be abused, yes, he still does it anyway. That is kind of the way of addiction, that is a common thread. Whether the person is being hurt by the drunkenness alone (and all that entails) or by being abused. So when you read other threads here, it's really the same thing.
Question is, how long do you figure you would like to put up with this? There is no amount of jade-ing, ignoring, bolstering your self esteem in-between abusive sessions that is going to make this ok for you. You have a part-time partner. Is that enough for you?
While you are still with him, the rest of the time it might be wise to completely separate yourself from him when he is drunk, there really is no need for you to listen to any of it.
Recanting all he has said when drunk, later on, doesn't actually cancel out the damage, to you, to the relationship.
It's hard to not wonder if it's maybe how he feels about me really but not bold enough to say sober? That's what hurts.
Question is, how long do you figure you would like to put up with this? There is no amount of jade-ing, ignoring, bolstering your self esteem in-between abusive sessions that is going to make this ok for you. You have a part-time partner. Is that enough for you?
While you are still with him, the rest of the time it might be wise to completely separate yourself from him when he is drunk, there really is no need for you to listen to any of it.
I told my then AH that I didn't want to hear another apology from him,
that I had heard it a hundred times and because of that it meant nothing.
In hindsight, it was a turning point. For me, because I felt I had spoken up
for myself as I had come to loathe both the drunk behavior and the
insincere apologies. For him, because he couldn't dump his guilt on me-
he had to sit with it and do something else with it.
I feel now, that accepting apologies for behavior that keeps
reoccurring is just adding to the abuse.
I set my boundaries around feeling safe in my own home, and told
my husband no more criticizing - that I needed to feel safe in our home,
and I would do what I felt I needed to do to feel safe. I had
detached and I no longer criticized him- I accepted the fultility of
it. The mean behavior toward me stopped - he continued drinking but
not in front of me.
that I had heard it a hundred times and because of that it meant nothing.
In hindsight, it was a turning point. For me, because I felt I had spoken up
for myself as I had come to loathe both the drunk behavior and the
insincere apologies. For him, because he couldn't dump his guilt on me-
he had to sit with it and do something else with it.
I feel now, that accepting apologies for behavior that keeps
reoccurring is just adding to the abuse.
I set my boundaries around feeling safe in my own home, and told
my husband no more criticizing - that I needed to feel safe in our home,
and I would do what I felt I needed to do to feel safe. I had
detached and I no longer criticized him- I accepted the fultility of
it. The mean behavior toward me stopped - he continued drinking but
not in front of me.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Northwest
Posts: 4,215
I’m so sorry you’re going through all this. I have a couple of suggestions, only because sober he still seems reasonable at this point? Please understand that you try these only if you feel safe in your home. The second you don’t, all tactics are moot. Others can describe “gray rocking” as a tactic better than I can.
When he’s sober...
1) Agree to a word or phrase that you use when he’s stepped over your boundary. It may slow him down a bit or you’ll start to realize how often it happens.
2) Agree you will film him during these episodes. There’s a tiny chance it might shock him into taking recovery seriously, but mostly you will have a record of what’s really gone on. It may be useful later. If he takes offense to that, that tells you something, too.
Take notes. Write down the things he says and when he said them.
Start lining up Plan B. Do you have a good friend you can confide in? Family who would be there for you?
This may escalate to threats or violence eventually. Save the Domestic Violence hotline number in your phone and have a plan for leaving in a hurry, with your wallet, keys, extra meds, glasses, etc. always ready to go.
I send you a hug.
When he’s sober...
1) Agree to a word or phrase that you use when he’s stepped over your boundary. It may slow him down a bit or you’ll start to realize how often it happens.
2) Agree you will film him during these episodes. There’s a tiny chance it might shock him into taking recovery seriously, but mostly you will have a record of what’s really gone on. It may be useful later. If he takes offense to that, that tells you something, too.
Take notes. Write down the things he says and when he said them.
Start lining up Plan B. Do you have a good friend you can confide in? Family who would be there for you?
This may escalate to threats or violence eventually. Save the Domestic Violence hotline number in your phone and have a plan for leaving in a hurry, with your wallet, keys, extra meds, glasses, etc. always ready to go.
I send you a hug.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Santa Rosa CA
Posts: 240
I’m so sorry you’re going through all this. I have a couple of suggestions, only because sober he still seems reasonable at this point? Please understand that you try these only if you feel safe in your home. The second you don’t, all tactics are moot. Others can describe “gray rocking” as a tactic better than I can.
When he’s sober...
1) Agree to a word or phrase that you use when he’s stepped over your boundary. It may slow him down a bit or you’ll start to realize how often it happens.
2) Agree you will film him during these episodes. There’s a tiny chance it might shock him into taking recovery seriously, but mostly you will have a record of what’s really gone on. It may be useful later. If he takes offense to that, that tells you something, too.
Take notes. Write down the things he says and when he said them.
Start lining up Plan B. Do you have a good friend you can confide in? Family who would be there for you?
This may escalate to threats or violence eventually. Save the Domestic Violence hotline number in your phone and have a plan for leaving in a hurry, with your wallet, keys, extra meds, glasses, etc. always ready to go.
I send you a hug.
When he’s sober...
1) Agree to a word or phrase that you use when he’s stepped over your boundary. It may slow him down a bit or you’ll start to realize how often it happens.
2) Agree you will film him during these episodes. There’s a tiny chance it might shock him into taking recovery seriously, but mostly you will have a record of what’s really gone on. It may be useful later. If he takes offense to that, that tells you something, too.
Take notes. Write down the things he says and when he said them.
Start lining up Plan B. Do you have a good friend you can confide in? Family who would be there for you?
This may escalate to threats or violence eventually. Save the Domestic Violence hotline number in your phone and have a plan for leaving in a hurry, with your wallet, keys, extra meds, glasses, etc. always ready to go.
I send you a hug.
I came here to say record/film him when he is being an absolute a******, play it back when he's sober
HopeUnending......there is no place in a relationship for someone to be told the kind of things that he has been saying to you----no matter what the excuse or reason. It is still abusive.
No one should put up with abuse just to be in a relationship. It does damage to the victim----the o ne on the receiving end.
He is controlled by the alcoholism---and the alcoholism doesn't care one twit about you.
Unless he is in a program of abstinence, that he works diligently and lives by for the rest of his life----the abusive language will continue, (the apologies probably will, also---but they will be hollow words)
It will be your decision as to how the rest of your life goes. You cannot depend on him to make the decisions about you welfare---he can' even trust himself to take care of his own welfare.
He won't see it that way and may not even realize what damage he is doing to himself and you----but, it is important that YOU do know it!
I realize that you probably don't want to hear this---this basic reality. But I do think that you need to know it. If you were to read the thousands of stories on this forum---you will find your story over and over again.
No one should put up with abuse just to be in a relationship. It does damage to the victim----the o ne on the receiving end.
He is controlled by the alcoholism---and the alcoholism doesn't care one twit about you.
Unless he is in a program of abstinence, that he works diligently and lives by for the rest of his life----the abusive language will continue, (the apologies probably will, also---but they will be hollow words)
It will be your decision as to how the rest of your life goes. You cannot depend on him to make the decisions about you welfare---he can' even trust himself to take care of his own welfare.
He won't see it that way and may not even realize what damage he is doing to himself and you----but, it is important that YOU do know it!
I realize that you probably don't want to hear this---this basic reality. But I do think that you need to know it. If you were to read the thousands of stories on this forum---you will find your story over and over again.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 83
I'm sorry you have to listen to this ranting hopeunending. It must batter your self esteem around and that's never good. Who wants to live with someone who puts them down regularly?
Recanting all he has said when drunk, later on, doesn't actually cancel out the damage, to you, to the relationship.
Yes, he knows this hurts you, yes, he knows when he gets drunk you will be abused, yes, he still does it anyway. That is kind of the way of addiction, that is a common thread. Whether the person is being hurt by the drunkenness alone (and all that entails) or by being abused. So when you read other threads here, it's really the same thing.
Question is, how long do you figure you would like to put up with this? There is no amount of jade-ing, ignoring, bolstering your self esteem in-between abusive sessions that is going to make this ok for you. You have a part-time partner. Is that enough for you?
While you are still with him, the rest of the time it might be wise to completely separate yourself from him when he is drunk, there really is no need for you to listen to any of it.
Recanting all he has said when drunk, later on, doesn't actually cancel out the damage, to you, to the relationship.
Yes, he knows this hurts you, yes, he knows when he gets drunk you will be abused, yes, he still does it anyway. That is kind of the way of addiction, that is a common thread. Whether the person is being hurt by the drunkenness alone (and all that entails) or by being abused. So when you read other threads here, it's really the same thing.
Question is, how long do you figure you would like to put up with this? There is no amount of jade-ing, ignoring, bolstering your self esteem in-between abusive sessions that is going to make this ok for you. You have a part-time partner. Is that enough for you?
While you are still with him, the rest of the time it might be wise to completely separate yourself from him when he is drunk, there really is no need for you to listen to any of it.
I am working Al-Anon steps, meetings and getting support here to not suffer alone at least. But I'm gaining so much more than that. This is helping so much. I can't change him but changing me is making me stronger and better prepared to be able to get/make it to this goal.
I told my then AH that I didn't want to hear another apology from him,
that I had heard it a hundred times and because of that it meant nothing.
In hindsight, it was a turning point. For me, because I felt I had spoken up
for myself as I had come to loathe both the drunk behavior and the
insincere apologies. For him, because he couldn't dump his guilt on me-
he had to sit with it and do something else with it.
I feel now, that accepting apologies for behavior that keeps
reoccurring is just adding to the abuse.
I set my boundaries around feeling safe in my own home, and told
my husband no more criticizing - that I needed to feel safe in our home,
and I would do what I felt I needed to do to feel safe. I had
detached and I no longer criticized him- I accepted the fultility of
it. The mean behavior toward me stopped - he continued drinking but
not in front of me.
that I had heard it a hundred times and because of that it meant nothing.
In hindsight, it was a turning point. For me, because I felt I had spoken up
for myself as I had come to loathe both the drunk behavior and the
insincere apologies. For him, because he couldn't dump his guilt on me-
he had to sit with it and do something else with it.
I feel now, that accepting apologies for behavior that keeps
reoccurring is just adding to the abuse.
I set my boundaries around feeling safe in my own home, and told
my husband no more criticizing - that I needed to feel safe in our home,
and I would do what I felt I needed to do to feel safe. I had
detached and I no longer criticized him- I accepted the fultility of
it. The mean behavior toward me stopped - he continued drinking but
not in front of me.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 83
I’m so sorry you’re going through all this. I have a couple of suggestions, only because sober he still seems reasonable at this point? Please understand that you try these only if you feel safe in your home. The second you don’t, all tactics are moot. Others can describe “gray rocking” as a tactic better than I can.
When he’s sober...
1) Agree to a word or phrase that you use when he’s stepped over your boundary. It may slow him down a bit or you’ll start to realize how often it happens.
2) Agree you will film him during these episodes. There’s a tiny chance it might shock him into taking recovery seriously, but mostly you will have a record of what’s really gone on. It may be useful later. If he takes offense to that, that tells you something, too.
Take notes. Write down the things he says and when he said them.
Start lining up Plan B. Do you have a good friend you can confide in? Family who would be there for you?
This may escalate to threats or violence eventually. Save the Domestic Violence hotline number in your phone and have a plan for leaving in a hurry, with your wallet, keys, extra meds, glasses, etc. always ready to go.
I send you a hug.
When he’s sober...
1) Agree to a word or phrase that you use when he’s stepped over your boundary. It may slow him down a bit or you’ll start to realize how often it happens.
2) Agree you will film him during these episodes. There’s a tiny chance it might shock him into taking recovery seriously, but mostly you will have a record of what’s really gone on. It may be useful later. If he takes offense to that, that tells you something, too.
Take notes. Write down the things he says and when he said them.
Start lining up Plan B. Do you have a good friend you can confide in? Family who would be there for you?
This may escalate to threats or violence eventually. Save the Domestic Violence hotline number in your phone and have a plan for leaving in a hurry, with your wallet, keys, extra meds, glasses, etc. always ready to go.
I send you a hug.
I have support from his mom. I don't have friends-hard to have friends you keep secrets from. I felt until this site, I was the cause of all the chaos in my life. How do you share such a heavy burden with someone?! As an empath myself I could imagine how exhausting be friends with me would be. I have very few family members involved in my life, most of my immediate family are deceased. But they know nothing since he was in recovery or much of anything before besides seeing him drink twice(behaved well). So when it's time to make move it will be on my own in all aspects.
HopeUnending......there is no place in a relationship for someone to be told the kind of things that he has been saying to you----no matter what the excuse or reason. It is still abusive.
No one should put up with abuse just to be in a relationship. It does damage to the victim----the o ne on the receiving end.
He is controlled by the alcoholism---and the alcoholism doesn't care one twit about you.
Unless he is in a program of abstinence, that he works diligently and lives by for the rest of his life----the abusive language will continue, (the apologies probably will, also---but they will be hollow words)
It will be your decision as to how the rest of your life goes. You cannot depend on him to make the decisions about you welfare---he can' even trust himself to take care of his own welfare.
He won't see it that way and may not even realize what damage he is doing to himself and you----but, it is important that YOU do know it!
I realize that you probably don't want to hear this---this basic reality. But I do think that you need to know it. If you were to read the thousands of stories on this forum---you will find your story over and over again.
No one should put up with abuse just to be in a relationship. It does damage to the victim----the o ne on the receiving end.
He is controlled by the alcoholism---and the alcoholism doesn't care one twit about you.
Unless he is in a program of abstinence, that he works diligently and lives by for the rest of his life----the abusive language will continue, (the apologies probably will, also---but they will be hollow words)
It will be your decision as to how the rest of your life goes. You cannot depend on him to make the decisions about you welfare---he can' even trust himself to take care of his own welfare.
He won't see it that way and may not even realize what damage he is doing to himself and you----but, it is important that YOU do know it!
I realize that you probably don't want to hear this---this basic reality. But I do think that you need to know it. If you were to read the thousands of stories on this forum---you will find your story over and over again.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 143
"I told my then AH that I didn't want to hear another apology from him,
that I had heard it a hundred times and because of that it meant nothing."
Yes.
"I feel now, that accepting apologies for behavior that keeps
reoccurring is just adding to the abuse."
Yes, again. My heart is breaking as I type this because I will always (or had always been willing) to accept an apology from anyone but when the behavior has happened one too many times, I just felt that I was putting a sign on my back that said, "Please hurt me again." I could take it no more. I can take it no more. I deserve better.
So, now, I'm alone and have been for awhile. I'd been doing really well for for the last few months but I was just so, so sad tonight. So sad and lonely. But coming here and reading this thread gave me a bit of strength so I thank you all for that. I always feel like I'm the only one but you all show me I'm not alone. This is not personal to me. F*** alcohol.
that I had heard it a hundred times and because of that it meant nothing."
Yes.
"I feel now, that accepting apologies for behavior that keeps
reoccurring is just adding to the abuse."
Yes, again. My heart is breaking as I type this because I will always (or had always been willing) to accept an apology from anyone but when the behavior has happened one too many times, I just felt that I was putting a sign on my back that said, "Please hurt me again." I could take it no more. I can take it no more. I deserve better.
So, now, I'm alone and have been for awhile. I'd been doing really well for for the last few months but I was just so, so sad tonight. So sad and lonely. But coming here and reading this thread gave me a bit of strength so I thank you all for that. I always feel like I'm the only one but you all show me I'm not alone. This is not personal to me. F*** alcohol.
HU, do you attend alanon or counseling? It's so very important that you have
in person support, besides his mother - at some point she will side with him.
Alanon has zoom meetings and it could take a few before you find one you
like. In person would be preferred if possible. Have you read codependent
no more by Melody Beattie? In the first year of my recovery (codependent)
I was going to meetings, had a sponsor I met with and called regularly,
counseling, and had obvious signs around the house
in the form of books from alanon, and others, like "When to Draw the Line".
It replaced all the worry and unhealthy obsession with AH's drinking.
As far as filming, there were many times I intended to record secretly,
voice only, but didn't. I do think it's a good idea though. And the
thought occurred to me, you can record the apology too, even play
it while he's verbally/emotionally attacking you (just kidding
about that- but it shows how unhealthy the family disease of
alcoholism is).
in person support, besides his mother - at some point she will side with him.
Alanon has zoom meetings and it could take a few before you find one you
like. In person would be preferred if possible. Have you read codependent
no more by Melody Beattie? In the first year of my recovery (codependent)
I was going to meetings, had a sponsor I met with and called regularly,
counseling, and had obvious signs around the house
in the form of books from alanon, and others, like "When to Draw the Line".
It replaced all the worry and unhealthy obsession with AH's drinking.
As far as filming, there were many times I intended to record secretly,
voice only, but didn't. I do think it's a good idea though. And the
thought occurred to me, you can record the apology too, even play
it while he's verbally/emotionally attacking you (just kidding
about that- but it shows how unhealthy the family disease of
alcoholism is).
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 83
Update
He busted a TV last night. While I was sleeping, he drove drunk early this morning to buy a new one I'm guessing. He is in county jail. I don't know if he wrecked, was pulled over, or any details. He called his mom who called me. She point blank told him she was not coming. I called the jail to see what his charges were/what happened. But they said he wasn't there, hadn't arrived, was still processing maybe. I never called back. He's on his own this time. Which is a whole new positive step for me- not to go save him.
I confided the truth when I got to work today to my only real friend who is a co-worker. She hugged me and is contacting someone she knows who might have a housing option available. I will go stay with someone for a couple days until I can figure stuff out if he gets let out of jail-he always does. I pray he stays in jail though to give me time to sort and prepare to leave. Either way I will not stay in the house if he's there. I have a bag somewhat packed in my car if I can't go home.
It's my chance I needed so desperately. I have more support now. His mom is so glad I'm finally seeing my escape. I have to do this. I'm a nervous wreck but I might not get this chance again.
I confided the truth when I got to work today to my only real friend who is a co-worker. She hugged me and is contacting someone she knows who might have a housing option available. I will go stay with someone for a couple days until I can figure stuff out if he gets let out of jail-he always does. I pray he stays in jail though to give me time to sort and prepare to leave. Either way I will not stay in the house if he's there. I have a bag somewhat packed in my car if I can't go home.
It's my chance I needed so desperately. I have more support now. His mom is so glad I'm finally seeing my escape. I have to do this. I'm a nervous wreck but I might not get this chance again.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Northwest
Posts: 4,215
Oh, sweetie, I’m so sorry. A suggestion? Right now, while you have some time to think, write down everything. Every drunkathon, every insult, every secret you told him that he used to hurt you when he was drunk. Then read it every morning when you wake up and several times a day.
Because what’s going to happen is he’s going to show up, full of regret and tears and charm. And the pattern will repeat, but worse.
When even his mom is telling you to get out, it’s time. It won’t be easy, but it will be different. And all he can offer is more of the same. His addiction has him now, but it doesn’t have to take you down with it.
Please check in? And I send you an enormous fierce hug.
P.S. Here is a link to all of your posts in case it helps. We tend to only remember the good parts at some point and forget how bad the bad times really were...
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...=9036563&pp=20
Because what’s going to happen is he’s going to show up, full of regret and tears and charm. And the pattern will repeat, but worse.
When even his mom is telling you to get out, it’s time. It won’t be easy, but it will be different. And all he can offer is more of the same. His addiction has him now, but it doesn’t have to take you down with it.
Please check in? And I send you an enormous fierce hug.
P.S. Here is a link to all of your posts in case it helps. We tend to only remember the good parts at some point and forget how bad the bad times really were...
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...=9036563&pp=20
I'm so happy you have made this choice and have a plan HU. I hope
he didn't threaten you last night.
Glad to hear his mom is standing firm, she may have experience with
this?
His behavior/alcoholism is spiraling down and you can't stop it.
A good year of him in active participation in a recovery program would be
something for you to consider before going back, if ever.
Also a good idea is to not go home alone, bring someone with you.
Many times a local police officer or constable is very agreeable to
park across the street while you get things, I did this once.
You mentioned he always gets out of jail - please stay safe! (((hugs)))
he didn't threaten you last night.
Glad to hear his mom is standing firm, she may have experience with
this?
His behavior/alcoholism is spiraling down and you can't stop it.
A good year of him in active participation in a recovery program would be
something for you to consider before going back, if ever.
Also a good idea is to not go home alone, bring someone with you.
Many times a local police officer or constable is very agreeable to
park across the street while you get things, I did this once.
You mentioned he always gets out of jail - please stay safe! (((hugs)))
I am so happy you reached out to a real-world friend for support. And look! It wasn't the unbearable burden for them that you feared it would be!
People who love us don't feel the weight of our problems the same way we do. I'm sorry it came to this, friend, but I am really proud of you for accepting things as they are, rather than how you wish they would be. This is an unsettling time, but you're doing really well.
People who love us don't feel the weight of our problems the same way we do. I'm sorry it came to this, friend, but I am really proud of you for accepting things as they are, rather than how you wish they would be. This is an unsettling time, but you're doing really well.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)